I was wondering on how the MLS compared to the NASL. Is the MLS more stable then the NASL is the MLS more popular? Did trying too hard hinder the NASL? Has the MLS got future?
There were hardly 11 Americans who could actually play back in those days. The NASL actually tried with Team America in 1983, which was (ostensibly) the US National Team, but it turned out to be just whoever they could come up with. Which wasn't much.
I actually saw Team America play in RFK when I was 12. Only name I remember is Keith Furphy. Or something like that.
Here they were, Team America in 1983, with the number of caps they ever had for the US Nats in parentheses: Askew, Sonny (4) Bandov,Boris (33) Bellinger,Tony (7) Borja,Hernan (11) Canter,Dan (9) Cantillo,Ringo (11) Crescitelli,Tony (1) DeBrito,Pedro (1) Durgan,Jeff (7) Glenn,Rudy (1) Green,Alan (1) Hammond,Paul (0) Knight,Hayden (3) Mausser,Arnold (35) Merrick,Alan (1) Olsen,Rob (1) Parkinson,Andrew (2) Petenon,Mark (0) Savage,Bruce (16) Van der Beck,Perry (23) Villa,Greg (18) Keith Furphy was a good player, but I don't believe he ever played for Team America. He played for Detroit from 1978-80 and Atlanta in 1980-81, but was never capped for the US National Team.
Is this the same Borja who went by the nickname "Chico" and enjoyed some success with the Wichita Wings of the MISL?
Cool... I knew Chico was good, but I didn't know that when I was hanging around him that I was hanging around a former National Team player... Neither he nor PVDB had a real attitude. Cool guys, and really cool to be that close to US Soccer history.
I have a lot of fond memories of the NASL. It was nice to have a 28 team league, and the likes of Beckenbauer, Cryuff, Eusebio, Pele, Chinaglia, Parkes, etc. playing here. But I was always miffed at the relative lack of contribution by Americans. I'll take MLS, thank you. BTW--notice the absence of certain names from Team America? Davis. Moyers. Even Mark Peterson (a big goal scorer for the Seattle Sounders) only came 2/3 of the way through the season. It was a crock the moment the best Nats said they were staying with their club teams.
Being one of the few who actually saw many NASL games, on this site, I can tell you that NASL was always enertaining and offered an unmatched opportunity to see numerous football legends in the flesh. That said, never, not once did anyone say it would be a developmental league for young American players. If it had, it might still be here, today. Often I read how so-called football experts on these threads, especially those who think the EPL is far superior to all else, scoff at MLS. Today, I read where Brad Friedel preserved a clean sheet and a Birmingham win in the the EPL by stopping a Stern John header. Seems to me, that the EPL is rapidly becoming MLS. Hell, it seems to me that the EPL is looking a lot like the Columbus Crew!!! That, would have never have happened in the NASL days. It was beyond all reckoning.
IIRC a lot of NASL teams either played on astroturf-type carpets or on baseball diamonds. If you think that playing in Naperville is a problem, remember those early Metros games on the carpet at Giants Stadium. A lot of NASL play looked like that. Given that a few A-League teams (e.g., Seattle Sounders) still play on artificial surfaces, I'm not sure how different the situation would be today had the NASL survived. You just have to wonder how much good the NASL could have done the US national team, even if the league featured more American players, so long as they played on those surfaces. I'm not sure you prepare anyone for international play by having them chase astroturf bounces in a game with very little tackling. I remember watching a sports talk tv show in Brazil in 1982 on which they were interviewing Pele and showed clips from his Cosmos career. The hosts were fascinated by the playing surface. Pele talked about how it wasn't anything like grass, changed the game, etc. Then one of the hosts mentioned all the extra lines and markings and asked Pele whether those were there to help the officials with setting up free kicks and spotting off side. Pele laughed and explained that there's this other game that they play at Giants Stadium.
In 1983, just for example, NASL teams and their home playing surfaces: Turf: Chicago Sting - Soldier Field Montreal Manic - Olympic Stadium New York Cosmos - Giants Stadium Seattle Sounders - Kingdome Toronto Blizzard - Exhibition Stadium Tulsa Roughnecks - Skelly Stadium Vancouver Whitecaps - Empire Stadium Grass: Ft.Lauderdale Strikers - Lockhart Stadium Golden Bay Earthquakes - Spartan Stadium San Diego Sockers - Jack Murphy Stadium Tampa Bay Rowdies - Tampa Stadium Team America - RFK Stadium Other teams on turf: Dallas Tornado - Texas Stadium Calgary Boomers - McMahon Stadium Portland Timbers - Civic Stadium Detroit Express - Silverdome Houston Hurricane - Astrodome Philadelphia Fury - Veterans Stadium New England Tea Men - Schaeffer Stadium I'm sure there were others. I never thought of it before, but there was a hell of a lot of turf in the NASL. I guess that's because there was just a hell of a lot of turf in America in those days, it was the Wonder Fabric. There were lots of white shoes and cookie-cutter stadia as well, before we as a country realized what we were doing wrong (though I actually liked white shoes).
Originally posted by SoccerMavn I have a lot of fond memories of the NASL. It was nice to have a 28 team league, and the likes of Beckenbauer, Cryuff, Eusebio, Pele, Chinaglia, Parkes, etc. playing here. Actually, the highest number of NASL teams was 24 in '78, '79, and '80... those 24 were NEVER in the same cities as teams like the Colorado Caribous and Oakland Stompers were "one and done" while many others only got 2 or 3 years at the most before moving... somebody correct me on this if I'm wrong, but I don't think the NASL EVER had the same number of teams in the same cities for 2 consecutive years, let alone the type of stability MLS cities enjoy... ah, yes, Chinaglia, Beckanbauer, Cruyff, Best, Francis... all playing on cheap astroturf and narrow fields... But I was always miffed at the relative lack of contribution by Americans. Remember playing "spot the American" in Tulsa... "oh, yeah, our guy was the one who just gave up the ball." Yeah, we had a few good players (Joe Morrone, Winston DuBose, Jack Brand-- notice that 2 of those players were GKs... drafted Ty Keough but I don't think he got any playing time here... Tim Twellman...) I'll take MLS, thank you. Yeah, in those years with 24 teams, there simply weren't enough American players in the talent pool to give any one team more than a player or 2 with any real potential... add to this that I heard some of these players were paid as little as $3500 for "the summer"... BTW--notice the absence of certain names from Team America? Davis. Moyers. Even Mark Peterson (a big goal scorer for the Seattle Sounders) only came 2/3 of the way through the season. It was a crock the moment the best Nats said they were staying with their club teams. EXACTLY... the best players stayed away... I think American players could have had a positive impact on the NASL if it had 10 to 12 teams instead of 21 to 24. By the time the league dwindled back down to 14 and finally 7 teams, it was too late... 2 definitions of "Americanization" for ya... MLS: "The development of an American players and an American style of play with emphasis on creating a strong national team..." NASL: "The addition of the shootout, 35-yd offsides rule and anything else we can think of to attract a crowd... oh, yeah, and we'll put a couple of players on the the field as a token gesture..." To make an accurate comparison of MLS to the old NASL you almost need to think of the NASL as 2 different leagues. The first one would be from 1968 to 1975: this one was more like the A-league-- attendance ranged from 1 or 2K per game to over 10K for a couple of teams... after the signing of Pele, the years from 1975 to 1984 were, well... "It was the best of times" (Cosmos averaged about 40K per game and there were great crowds in Seattle, Tampa, Vancouver, Minneapolis)... "It was the worst of times" (other teams in major cities only could draw in the 5K range)... It was the age of the Cosmos... It was the age of the players--as in "OLD!" (Welcome to the NASL Nursing Home for world's best retired players). That league NEVER should have had more than 18 teams... and the venues... many/most played on either astroturf or baseball fields-- how 'bout that infield dirt? Sometimes, though, I think MLS has tried TOO hard to not repeat the mistakes of the NASL that I think they're becoming the NASL's polar opposite: a league that will never expand or move unsuccessful teams...
... also forgot to mention that NASL in the final years also became an indoor league to compete with the MISL (note to Wichita fan: Chico Borja was in Tulsa for a year or two)... some teams (San Diego, Chicago) drew consistently bigger crowds for "human pinball" (as a lot of us in Tulsa referred to it) than the outdoor game... indoor soccer was becoming "the future of the game" which meant the NASL did a 40 game indoor season followed by a 24 game outdoor season shortly before it went the way of the dinosaur... Thank God MLS has never considered the indoor game as a source of revenue (?!?)
Some Americans who played more than 100 games in the NASL: Pat McBride (St.Louis) Kyle Rote, Jr. (Dallas/Houston) Rick Davis (New York) Steve Moyers (St.Louis/California/New York) Bob Rigby (Philadelphia et al) Arnie Mausser (Tampa Bay et al) Winston DuBose (Tampa Bay et al) Alan Mayer (San Diego et al) Shep Messing (New York et al) No problem creating goalkeepers, that's never been a problem here. The aforementioned Keith Furphy was English.
There were a lot of things that the NASL did that are easy to laugh at now, the same way it's easy to laugh at 70s/80s clothing fashions. But frankly, I'll take the NASL over MLS because it put a team in my town. The NASL was here. MLS isn't. I don't care how great MLS is, if I don't have a hometown team I have nothing. After year after year of being frozen out of pro soccer, those NASL days are looking pretty grand, turf, shootout, foreigners and all. Just the opinion of a frustrated soccer fan.
As a resident of Houston, I feel your pain. Unfortunately, your Detroit NASL club would likely only be around for one or two seasons and then either move or fold. On the bright side, you would have a good chance of getting another NASL team - maybe the Houston franchise, which maybe used to be the Philly franchise, which used to be the San Diego franchise... The relative stability of MLS has been both one of its strongest and - for people in places like Detroit, Houston, Philly, etc. - most frustrating characteristics. Sometimes stability is just a more positive way to describe inertia. Still, I can't really gripe much about MLS' highly conservative approach to expansion - it's Uncle Phil's money to lose and he's been wonderfully willing to keep losing it every year. All I can promise him is a season-ticket holder in Houston. I suspect he needs a bit more than that. But if the NASL suffered from being overly ambitious, it's reasonable to wonder whether MLS has been ambitious enough. Oh well, back to Chivas v. Cruz Azul.
Maybe a minor point, but all the Tornado games I went to as a kid were at Ownby Stadium an the campus of SMU. And yes, they played on turf.
I think the "magic" depended on your vantage point... not sure there was a whole lotta magic going on if you were a fan of: Atlanta Chiefs, Colorado Caribous, Team Hawaii, New England Tea Men, Memphis Rogues, Houston Hurricane or even a LA Aztec team with a George Best or Johann Cruyff... There was definitely "magic" in the air in Tulsa... somebody else mentioned there wasn't much tackling in games played on astroturf-- makes sense once you see the massive strawberries and general rugburn from sliding around on the carpet that was Skelly Stadium. As a teenage soccer player during the Roughneck years, seeing these players live was a way to learn the game and the only place you could find a "hero" to emulate (Joe-Max Moore was a ballboy and son of one of the owners-- he also was a big fan of Duncan McKenzie). It was this, the occasional ABC games and an hour of "Soccer Made in Germany" with Toby Charles on PBS that inspired young soccer players to dream... I remember games where over 30,000 fans would come to see Tulsa play the Cosmos... or a playoff game where the fans carried goalkeeper Jack Brand off the field after he shut out NY in front of over 26K... the next game attracted over 76,000 fans to Giants Stadium... I remember big games against the Minnesota Kicks or a big game at Detroit where the great Trevor Francis botched a penalty kick... I remember seeing good highlights to NASL games on SI, ESPN and the Sports Machine... and of course, the very last Soccer Bowl in which Tulsa beat Toronto in front of over 50K at BC Place in Vancouver-- anybody got a video of this thing... can't find one anywhere! But I also remember games at Dallas (whether it was Texas Stadium or the field at SMU) where hardly anyone was there... games on TV in Tulsa that showed an utterly empty Astrodome or a "pathetic" (a term all Bigsoccer posters have heard when it comes to MLS attendance) crowd at the huge Fulton County Stadium for a game against GK Victor Noguiera and the Atlanta Chiefs... or the "feast or famine" followers of the Chicago Sting-- mostly only a few thousand would show at Wrigley or Comiskey or Soldier Field but then seemingly out of nowhere they'd get a HUGE crowd... I can tell you that as a fan of one of the final 7 teams... a team who's fans raised close to 60,000 dollars on a radio station after it was rumored the Roughnecks were in danger of folding... a city that wanted the Roughnecks to sell stock options ala the Green Bay Packers... we didn't let the league down... the league let us down... I hear people put together stats that they figure indicate NASL history has nothing to do with how a team will do in MLS... Yes, times may have changed, but I still find that opinion very offensive... And I figure I'm not the only one... fans in Minneapolis, Detroit, Seattle, Portland, Vancouver and Montreal can point to HUGE attendance figures and say, "Why these teams and not us?" It's offensive to fans on the outside looking in that a league can keep teams in the same cities for years with little/no success... where the NASL changed teams early and often, I tire of those who blindly think MLS is some sort of Moses (St. Phil, anyone?) who came from Mt Sinai and presented 10 teams to us which we shall worship forever and ever, amen... MLS has turned into the stuck-up cheerleader in high school who's too good for anybody and **surprise** can't find a date to the prom: Lower your standards, b****!