Solution for MiddleEast Conflict

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by verybdog, Oct 9, 2003.

  1. verybdog

    verybdog New Member

    Jun 29, 2001
    Houyhnhnms
    Would internationalization of the Middle East region be a good idea?

    How about US army taking over the Israeli government?

    Invasion of Israel and West Bank?

    What would be your best solution to end the conflict?
     
  2. riverplate

    riverplate Member+

    Jan 1, 2003
    Corona, Queens
    Club:
    CA River Plate
    Invasion of Israel and the West Bank by who? If it's the Arabs, bring 'em on. They haven't won one of the wars yet. Maybe what they need is getting the **** kicked out of them again by Israel. Certainly couldn't hurt the situation.
     
  3. Richth76

    Richth76 New Member

    Jul 22, 1999
    Washington, D.C.
    Invasion? I say we NUKE THEM ALL!!!!

    Oh sorry, my mind was possessed by Axis Alex.

    There will be no peace in the middle east. These guys have been at it for over a millenium what makes you think GHWB, or any other US president, can stop it.
     
  4. dfb547490

    dfb547490 New Member

    Feb 9, 2000
    The Heights
    Re: Re: Solution for MiddleEast Conflict

    Now that's not fair, I would never advocate nuking Israel.

    I don't think GHWB is in much of a position to stop it...
     
  5. Richth76

    Richth76 New Member

    Jul 22, 1999
    Washington, D.C.
    Re: Re: Re: Solution for MiddleEast Conflict

    Why not?

    For once we agree...
     
  6. BenReilly

    BenReilly New Member

    Apr 8, 2002
    Israel has hundreds of nukes, included some that are sea-based and thus potentially capable of hitting any country.
     
  7. Richth76

    Richth76 New Member

    Jul 22, 1999
    Washington, D.C.
    Re: Re: Solution for MiddleEast Conflict

    Given this administration's penchant for invading nations with even the slightest, well major, ambitions of WMDs, I believe Isreal should be somewhere on the invasion list. What if some Palestian terror group were to somehow sieze an Isreali nuke???

    In reality we won't ever have to worry about nuking any country in the middle east. Iran and Isreal are well on the way to doing that messy little job for us.
     
  8. BenReilly

    BenReilly New Member

    Apr 8, 2002
    Re: Re: Re: Solution for MiddleEast Conflict

    Israel has had nukes for forty years and (obviously) never used them. If they were ever going to, 1973 would have been a good time.
     
  9. mannyfreshstunna

    mannyfreshstunna New Member

    Feb 7, 2003
    Naperville, no less
    Re: Re: Re: Solution for MiddleEast Conflict

    Unlike Russia, Israel has no trouble guarding its nukes.
     
  10. riverplate

    riverplate Member+

    Jan 1, 2003
    Corona, Queens
    Club:
    CA River Plate
    If this talk of Arafat being eaten up inside by stomach cancer is true, that will be step one in solving this mess.
     
  11. Richth76

    Richth76 New Member

    Jul 22, 1999
    Washington, D.C.
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Solution for MiddleEast Conflict

    And you know this how? I didn't know you were so tight with the upper crust of the Isreali military.
     
  12. Richth76

    Richth76 New Member

    Jul 22, 1999
    Washington, D.C.
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Solution for MiddleEast Conflict

    In 1973 their enemies did not have any cabablity whatsoever. Today, god only knows what Syria's hiding. And then there's Iran.
     
  13. DoctorJones24

    DoctorJones24 Member

    Aug 26, 1999
    OH
    Re: Re: Solution for MiddleEast Conflict

    I know this kind cliche gets thrown around every time someone mentions peace in the Mid East, but it's always by people who have no idea what they are talking about. It is simply false and ignorant on three levels:

    1) They have been "at it" since precisely 1948. It's the pagans and Christians who have been persecuting Jews for millenia. Muslim kingdoms have tended to be very tolerant of both Christians and Jews, as the Koran compels them to be.

    2) There were almost no Jews even in the area of Palestine for the last millenium, so exactly how could they have been "at it" with anyone.

    3) Islam is not even "millenia" old. It been around for barely over one millenium.
     
  14. BenReilly

    BenReilly New Member

    Apr 8, 2002
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Solution for MiddleEast Conflict

    In 1973, the balance of power was much less in Israel's favor. Syrian tanks were overrunning the north at the beginning of the war. It could easily have gone nuclear. The point is that Israel has proven that it will only use nukes as an absolute last resort. Basically, Israel's position has been that it won't be the first country in the region to use nukes, but it also won't be the 3rd.
     
  15. Richth76

    Richth76 New Member

    Jul 22, 1999
    Washington, D.C.
    Re: Re: Re: Solution for MiddleEast Conflict

    1) The conflict in it's current form is 55 years old. But it's much older than that.

    2) Sorry, that's right they were too busy getting gassed in Germany.

    3) This is a little off topic, but the separation of Islam and Judaism goes back to the 12 Tribes of Israel. Abraham had 2 sons who were Ishmael and Issac. The Arabs are the decendents of Ishmael (who was cast out by Abraham), the Jews the decendents of Issac.
     
  16. DoctorJones24

    DoctorJones24 Member

    Aug 26, 1999
    OH
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Solution for MiddleEast Conflict

    What is your idea of "much older?" Are you talking about the nasty letters/speeches on both sides in the interwar period, around the time of Balfour? I doubt it. The problem in the Mid East is over land, particuarly over how the British divided up the land after WWI and the defeat of the Ottomans. There was no "Mid East Conflict" before that.

    First of all, this myth refers to the Arab race, not to Islam (which of course did not even come into existence until the 7th century AD). Secondly, the story is just that, a "myth" of origins. Are you really suggesting that the current Jewish/Arab ethnicities are the descendent of two men? A similarly dumb myth used to be used to justify slavery. I'm not sure what you're using it to explain here.
     
  17. Richth76

    Richth76 New Member

    Jul 22, 1999
    Washington, D.C.
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Solution for MiddleEast Conflict

    This is an Arab/Isreali conflict as much as it is a Jew/Muslim conflict. A few "Arabs", (I know this is not a large representation), believe this "myth" so to them the conflict between the two groups dates back to when Abraham kicked his wife's hand maid and his own bastard child out of his home.
     
  18. The real solution to the conflict lies not in outside powers but in the natives themselves.

    If the majority of people in an area want to hate and to fight each other then they will find a way to hate and fight each other. You can keep an artificial lid on a situation ala Tito's "Yugoslavia" for a short time, historically speaking, but the microsecond that force is removed then the bloodshed will begin anew and likely even worse than before.

    For there to be peace in Israel, three things have to happen:

    1) The Muslims there need to grow up and recognize in their hearts that Israel is a legitimate state with a right to exist within its current official borders peacefully. That means an unconditional end to all violence immediately. To the Palestinians, I say "Yes, 'your land' was taken without your consent and that certainly hurt but it's been 50 years now. Stop whinging already and accept the reality of your situation. If you were smarter, you'd emulate Israel's economy and their acceptance of the facets of modernity that do not destroy their cultural identity rather than foolishly and duplicating the worst aspects of their tribalism."

    2) The Jews there have to grow up and realize that Muslims are not a subhuman underclass that can be exploited for cheap labor. It would also help if they recognized that antagonizing Muslims with the settlements is not a smart idea. To them I say "Are your memories so short? Did you learn nothing from the long centuries when it was you who were history's victims? You're on top now and with that power comes responsibility. Please use it more wisely."

    3) Both sides have to stop thinking in terms of "us and them" and to cease acting as if the past is the present. They should focus on their common human condition. The human condition does not change. It is what happens right now. If they focus on that, then the past can remain where it is - in the past. If both sides keep mistaking the past for the present, nothing can be done.

    All three things must happen roughly simultaneously as neither side wants to "go first". Only the people themselves can do this. Their leaders can help but they won't be able to do much if their people are still mired in the old stupidities.

    Yes, this is all easy for me to say sitting here in peace and prosperity, but it is true nonetheless.
     
  19. Sardinia

    Sardinia New Member

    Oct 1, 2002
    Sardinia, Italy, EU
    I'm becoming a fan of the character "Sheikh Djabouti" and not only because I envy his harem (though I can imagine when the wives get old).

    Only one thing... Their leaders are actually acting to keep the status quo if not worsen the situation.

    Probably because they need to grow up more than natives.
     
  20. verybdog

    verybdog New Member

    Jun 29, 2001
    Houyhnhnms
    What you said made sense to me.

    I think the Israelis need to make more concession first, as a victor. Among other things, they need to stop random killing of these women's fiance first, otherwise, every girl without a husband in Palestine will become a suicide bomber.

    Remember, the latest female bomber incident was triggered by the killing of her love ones (fiance and brother).

    As I recall from the recent events, every time Israelis' air missiles coming down from the air, bloody trouble starts.

    Someone has to stop first. Israel should be the one.
     
  21. house18

    house18 Member

    Jun 23, 2003
    St. Louis, MO
    The problem with this theory is that when the Israelis followed the truce they were bombed eventually and then when they retalliate they are bombed, so which is the choice. Israel has a policy of not negotiating with terrorists so they are not (and should not) just sit back while innocent people are killed on purpose. The other problem is that no matter what the Israelis do the terrorists come up with an excuse to bomb. Today the Israeli army (IDF) attacked a tunnel system that the Palestinians acknowledge is used to bring arms into the West Bank and immediately the terrorist leaders are screaming about Israel attacking innocent people. Israel does not just randomly kill people, they target terrorist leaders, people who attack them and the homes of bombers families. yes sometimes things go awry and innocent civillians are killed, sometimes these civillians are being used as shields. If anything the Palestinians need a real government and to stop the terrorists. I do agree with a lot of what the Sheikh said
     
  22. Sardinia

    Sardinia New Member

    Oct 1, 2002
    Sardinia, Italy, EU
    house18 is a clear example of what Sheikh Djabouti means with "natives needing to grow".

    Even if he is not a native.

    I'll give you a word: "feud", perform a meditation on this term.

    No, wait a minute...

    Except the little insignificant detail they never stopped targeted killings.

    Now go on with the meditation.
     
  23. Sardinia, I believe my wrting was imprecise. I meant to say that the Palestinian and Israeli leaders could be a help but cannot do it by themselves. Obviously, they can aid and abet the lunatic extremists within their respective camps and they have done so in the past. My point was, however, that we cannot praise or blame outside leaders or even give all credit or blame to people like Arafat or Sharon.

    ----

    verybdog, as refreshing as it would be for one side to take some responsibility for their own actions for once, I still think any moves need to be almost simultaneous. As a practical matter, however, it would more likely have to be the Palestinians who make any first move. Yes, Israel has the upper hand right now and you'd hope they'd use that power for good but even though that isn't happening if the Palestinians stopped the bombings, Sharon would be hard pressed to justify Israel's human rights abuses against even peaceful Palestinians.

    ----

    house18, while the killings that provide the international news media with their vivid pictures and 4 second video snippets are obviously the most visible and worst of outcomes of the tragedy, the situation is more complex than that. If you want to delve into history, fine. I can point out how after all but the most ultra-extreme of the Palestinians stopped the terrorism of the 1970s and began to move to recognize Israel, the Israelis chose to begin a campaign of economic warfare against them rather than seize the chance to create lasting peace. And when Israel's best internal hope for peace was gunned down, who did the deed? A Muslim? No. A member of the Israeli "right-wing".

    The point here is not to bicker and argue about who killed who, but to demonstrate that neither side is a monolith like those machine-people on Star Trek. You see, we all use the terms "Israel" and "the Palestinians" as shorthand but there deep divisions within each group as well. Not all Israelis are alike, just as not all Palestinians are alike. Just as the Palestinians are saddled with "professional terrorists" who stand to lose their power if peace ever breaks out, so are the Israelis infested with people who also see peace as being against their narrow, myopic interests, be those interests political, economic or psychological. Recognizing this will help us dispell the notion that "it's all 'their' fault, and 'we' are, of course, completely innocent".

    It is the people who have no interest in peace keep pushing "their" side to constantly carp about the past and behave like children. They are very persuasive and they come armed with charts and graphs and hideous, bloody pictures of what "they" have done to "us". But the reality is their message is still that of a pair of four year olds: "Mama, Yassir hit me!" "But, Mama, Menachem hit me first!" "Did not!" "Did too!" And on and on and on as the extremists on both sides smile in the background. Thus, instead of becoming the masters of history by learning from it and using it to advantage, the Palestinians and Israelis have become the slaves of history.
     
  24. Eric B

    Eric B Member

    Feb 21, 2000
    the LBC
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yup, he's JoePak.
     

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