Roster, Draft Picks, Allocations, Discoveries: What we know, how we know it. [N&A]

If a team has the cap space, can't they just sign an out-of-contract player? Allocations, as I understand them, are used for transfer fees for a player, right? Not on the actual signing of the guy.

 

Did you all forgot that we have an SI slot available? That's a lot better than two discovery picks IMO.

 

Are you saying that we can't use the SI at all or because it costs more than a regular player? I'm under the impression that we can sign an SI as long as we a) have the SI slot and b) have the money. Assuming that we have the cash, doesn't that mean we can sign an SI of our choosing?

 

Except that we DO have Discovery slots, and given that Reyes was signed in '02, we may also have some cash available for Discovery signings. Even if we don't have signing cash available, we still have the slots, so we can sign out-of-contract Discovery players of pretty high quality.

If we can sign guys who either a) don't have transfer fees associated with them, or b) don't have more of a transfer fee associated with them beyond whatever we have left this year after the Reyes deal two years ago, then we can fill our SI spot and any available roster spots and use our full available salary cap availability with our currently-available Discovery slots.

If Adu comes as an allocation, but is a P-40 (thus not counting against the cap), we'd have all of Etcheverry's salary, all of Stoitchkov's (minimal) salary, and that of whoever else we cut (we'd need to lose three "senior" players to gain two, given that we're a man up right now), to sign two Discovery players. Frankly, if there's a Ruiz-like guy coming out of contract from some Central American team who is willing to play for most of Etcheverry's salary, why wouldn't we be able to sign him? No reason I can see.

 

But, if it was three years, which three? Had we used money the year before or was he signed using 01/02/03 money? I don't know.

In any case, we have two Discovery slots now. And, all the better, we have Etcheverry's salary (plus Stoitchkov's small salary and the salary of whichever "senior" player we get rid of to get back to 18) to sign the two players.

I think we can find two out-of-contract or minimal-transfer-fee Discovery players who are willing to make Etcheverry+Stoitchkov+other's salary.

Etcheverry's salary is big by MLS standards (it's the max). We could sign an out-of-contract Ruiz-like player for most of that and pick up a moderate impact player for the combined leftover- Etcheverry/Stoitchkov/cut-guy salary.

 

MLS seems more retarded every time I read one of their rules, I swear...

 

I swear the League tries to make everything more difficult than it has to be. So we have to use a discovery pick in order to acquire an SI player? and money from the future can be used to pay for it? My head is hurting now...

 

Ok Knave, I see what you're saying. I think you're probably right--we can sign two new players and that's it. We'd have to trade for allocations or players.

Still, I don't think we're really that far away. I don't think we NEED more than two senior players to make this thing work. We'll see. I would certainly agree that our developmental roster could use some work.

 

Or we can trade some players (which will undoubtedly occur).

A point of interest: if there is expansion next year, how much of the previous posts remains true? New teams mean expansion draft, which mean we'll lose some players. So what does that mean for our open roster slots? Can we sign any league player then, or are there rules against that as well?

 

Isn't Dallas or the MLS covering half of Stewart's 250K this year? Which would mean that a third of the money freed by Etcheverry+Stoitchkov is eaten up. Something to think about in assessing whether to trade Earnie or not.

 

1. My source for the Special Discovery stuff was MLS Confidential, Jan. 31, 2002. Haig also posted some info on it in an earlier DCU thread (I believe on Reyes and his salary/transfer) much earlier in the year when we were talking cap issues. I think of couple of other soccer publications have also had some discussion on it early 2002. The way it works is that you have a total amount of transfer money available (I believe $300K) over a 3 year period and you can't spend a total sum (differing figures from MLS sources on what that total is). Thus, you couldn't pay a transfer fee and sign them to a $270K salary. My understanding is that we have no special discovery money for 2004.

2. Quintanilla is not a special discovery (as he's been reported by in a couple of publications).

3. Knave, I disagree with your position on the "only" ways players can be acquired in MLS. Look at the Metros this year (and no, I"m not arguing conspiracy--only that Bob Bradley is sharp and has acquired just about any kind of player any way he legally can).
--Galvan and Forchetti: my understanding is that they are LOANS (which the league is formally against on paper but allows Donovan who's contract is mostly owned by Bayer Leverkusen to play for SJ). I never heard this officially but my understanding is that the combination of their age and that it was a 2-year deal meant that the league didn't consider this a violation of the "no loan" policy which is to prevent teams from bringing in entirely new sides each year.
--Digimarino: weighted lottery.
--Jonny Walker: USMNT lottery (which, remember--no allocations were used on Frankie Hejduk and Joe Max Moore either!).
--waivers: Wolyniec (I could be wrong here but I believe he was signed off of waivers).
--free transfer: I'm not sure how they acquired Edgar Barthlemuew (sic). Not implying it was my neferious means--maybe it was a trade but I thought he was a foreign signing off of a free transfer.

It is my understanding that the allocation rules (which are written poorly) don't say you can't acquire foreign talent, only that you can pay transfer fees only through the allocation and special discovery routes. For instance, when DCU was planning on signing Dalglish last year--we weren't going to use a discovery (b/c he was on a free transfer). The only issues were: did we have cap space and did we have an SI slot? Wasn't that exactly what happened with the Metro and their late-season Polish international signing (Juskowiak)? No discovery, no allocation, no special discovery, no lottery.

4. My understanding is that we used an allocation on Earnie Stewart (both to claim him and so he'd only count $125K on the roster this year). Metro fans insist they only traded us a "minor" allocation ($75K). I thought we had acquired a "major" allocation ($150K). I've seen print media report both versions. If we got the major allocation, than we need to add $150K to the cap for 2004 to cover Earnie, if it was minor than it's only $200K he'll count on the cap.

5. I too am drawing a blank on who traded for a discovery slot. I'm though I recall at least one instance of it happening this season though.

 

Okay, a little more clarification.

1. The league rules specifically prohibit the trading of discovery slots--in theory.

2. In practice it has been done repeatedly. I had to clear a few cobwebs and then confirm this but...Metro traded a discovery slot to the Rapids which they used on Dawes from Jamaica. Chicago traded a discovery slot to Dallas (which they used on Ronnie O'Brien). Now technically these may have been situations where the team trading the slot signed the player first and then passed them along. But the trades were announced as a 4th round pick for a "discovery player to be named later" or a "discovery slot to be filled later." Then in August, the league approved the trade by Metro of a 3rd pick to San Jose for a "discovery play to be named later." They (Metro) then used that discovery on Juskowiak. They had to make the trade at that point in order to meet the trade deadline. And of course we have our own example where the league extended the discovery deadline to DCU b/c of the Convey fiasco.

3. I think it's looking more and more like Freddie Adu will not join MLS until June (ie: after HS graduation) of 2004. Which puts him out of the MLS superdraft and into the category of discovery/allocation/special lottery territory. If I were a Dallas fan, I wouldn't be that outraged if he as allocated outright to DCU. But I'd be flipping angry if it was done as P-40. This kid isn't going to sign for developmental or P-40 wages, it would likely be some kind of max salary or encentive package with max numbers. To have that be off the cap (as P-40) would be outrageous (and I say that as a DCU fan recognizing he's coming in) and would make a real mockery of the P-40 concept.

 

I have a funny feeling he'll be in the draft next year like Diceson said.

Don't GC regulations require certainamounts of continuous residency. The college years may have made that difficult, especially since he went to two schools on different coasts.

You can always blame anything on Kevin Payne

He was the payback for the Andy Williams trade with Chicago. So the Fire signed him and traded him to new York.

 

not that this is a reliable source, but MLS Confidential for yesterday said the following:

"D.C. United will probably receive an allocation from MLS if Marco Etcheverry and Hristo Stoitchkov leave the league even if no transfer money is involved. This roster and salary-cap space would give D.C. United some liberties to re-tool the squad."

but, like I said, it's not the most reliable source, and I have no idea where their coming up with their conclusion on this.

 

Remeber that these developmental slots also come with an almost less than subsistence salary and were intended to go to a local player who could still live at home and get paid $1000 a month. I doubt the Argies' came to play for so little money, maybe they did. Bartolemeu was acquire as compensation for the rights to Andy Williams according to the Metros press release. It's possible that the MLSNet Roster has him designated incorrectly. The Metros traded a 3rd round pick to SJ for a Discovery player to be announced later, I think this became Juskowiak as it happened late August and Juskowiak was signed in middle September. The 2 Argie's were their "normal" 2 discovery slots for the season.

 

I was one of the ones copmlianing about this deal and still do a little. Not that United wanted Walker or anyone else did for that matter. I simply have a problem classifiying Walker as a member of the USMNT pool. When was the last time he got sniff. Not in 2003, 2002, 2001 or 2000. He maybe listed but based on playing time he is just as much a memeber as Talley.

At least they (MLS) could have come up with a better excuse. As far as I am concerned the Metros can have Walker, I have no problem with him as a player, but as my parents tried to teach me "think before you speak" or in this case put out press releases.

 

Because DCUnited can possibly pickup Baumstark or Ford Williams as Development GKs. Both are significantly better than Geddes. Or, the league will continue to hold extras GKs, thus making 3rd GKS on teams a silly proposition. Why take up a spot if you don't need it?

Speaking of draft picks, it will be interesting to see just how bad the 2004 draft will be. "Sandon" has a better grip on the colleges, but with the possibility of Grabavoy and Drew Moore (Indiana), Williams (UNC), and defenders Chad Marshall (Stanford), and Jordan Harvey (UCLA) all doing well, it might become the norm that kids come out of college early. I think the league is going through the final phase of losing the original veterans. That will open up roster spots for early-outs. I feel eventually the league must allow early-outs to enter the draft as regular players, not P-40's.

 

Diceson hints at an interesting point.

We've given Hudson a lot of grief for not giving college players much thought.

Sure, there are some gems out there, but P-40 the allure of getting paid, and in some cases Euro clubs have drained the pool. More and more, professional clubs are taking kids out of high school, or just after graduation. College soccer is no longer the first choice for an excellent 17-18 year old kid. In some cases it's the third choice behind overseas clubs, and MLS.

If you think about it, Bobby Convey could be finishing up his third college season in a few weeks.

The pipeline of soccer talent has changed in the last couple of years, and it remains to be seen where it will settle out.

 

Sandon and I have gone around on this issue quite abit. I think he tends to be too optimistic about the college talent at times. That said, I disagree with your position.

I do feel that there are good years and bad years in terms of college talent. While it's too soon to tell with this year's draft, I think it will probably be not anywhere near as good as the 2003 draft. And I thought the 2002 draft (b/c of contraction--meaning fewer slots plus the range of talent) wasn't as strong as 2003 by a long shot.

That said, the talent in US amateur soccer (youth and college) is only getting better. Even if P-40 siphons off the best 15-20 kids, even if another 10 go overseas (to either succeed or wash out), the reality is:
--kids see MLS as a viable career. And that means kids like Alexander Yi who was premed b/c he didn't foresee a future in pro soccer instead go pro (even if it isn't with MLS--almost all these kids start out by talking with MLS and then either decide they can do better, opt to stay in school or go P-40). MLS alone (let alone other influences) has led to a much richer youth pool. And that benefits the colleges.
--USA is becoming more of a soccer culture. While there are lots of places in our fair land where soccer is still a sport for "foreigners" and inhabited mostly by ethnic leagues, there are more and more places where soccer is the mainstream. You see it on ESPN and FSW and some areas (thankfully the DC area) have good coverage of soccer. The A-league is flourishing. All of this means more people play soccer, more play it seriously, there is better coaching and development, more opportunities to learn from abroad and grow your game. And that leads to more youth players.

I think the talent coming out of college soccer is better now than it was 5 years ago. Remember, it used to be that you didn't expect a Ben Olsen to come in and contribute right away. Now, the shock with Dimani Ralph is that he wasn't chosen as a first rounder, not that a rookie (in the right circumstances) couldn't be a major contributor--even as a goal scorer.