U20's: US vs. Mexico [R]

Trolling not permitted. Otherwise we may have to start bringing up the Hernandez incident from the 2001 WCQ in Columbus. You don't really want to be reminded of that game, do you?

 

I think this pic sums up the argument.

 

Nancy, I'm not trolling, I'm not here to purposefully get people p!ssed off, thats what trolling means to me if its somthing else enlighten me. If we can't have a conversation where opposite points of view are held presented whats the point?

Anyway, yes I remember Ramirez kicking Lalas in the mid-section it wasn't very nice, and was a dirty thing to do, no doubt about it.

But I very much doubt that he sent a press clip of the incident to Lalas. Thats absurd, I'm going to guess it was a rumor made up to fire everyone up even more about the "dirty mexicans." Where would he even send it? He has Lalas' address? Or worked thru the FMF to send it to the USSF? C'mon thats ridiculous. Since you brought it up the onus is on you to prove it, in the meanwhile I find it extremely dubious.

I'm not saying the US is an extremely dirty team, just that when you play Mexico your guys go out and foul early, often, and hard as a tactic to rile our guys up. Our guys often respond with a lack of poise, I won't deny that. Won't deny it at all. We would benefit greatly by being mentally tougher and more disciplined in those cases thats for sure. But I'm pointing out that its not all a one way street, that there are reasons these things happen beyond a simple statement like "the mexicans are dirty they can't help it" No it is brought on by other actions. Is it an overreaction? Yes.

 

1) Nutsack, nutsack, nutsack, or is it numbnutsack... anyways if you wearn't defending it why bring it up? why make an issue of it? oviously you din't think gooch's second yellow is of any consequence, I happen to agree. But that still didn't stop US fans from bitching about it. My reference to the gooch thread was to point out how americans feel their players incapable of getting carded now do you agree that the thread does kind of indicate a lack of tolarance by americans for calls not going their way?

Yes yes all of that from youre extensive knowledge of Cruz Azul that you ocasionally follow...

Good, at least your finally learning to document what you say. Anyways now if I was to quote a mexican source saying something to the contrary what would your way out be?

Wow you're actually getting marginally good at insults... Since you didn't respond I take it you agree that Pope spitting on Hernandez was the first spiting incident between the two rivals.

I wouldn't consider this trolling, I simply have a difrent opinion and you get all emotional on me. I've had a fun time on the US boards, I've actually even managed to have some good exchanges with US posters, I havn't had the pleasure of having one with you, perhaps sometime in the not to distant future.

OO i'm just reinforcing the point that some US fans think its perfectly legal to cheap shot players as long as the ball is somewhere in between. But have cow when its done blatantly. What and absurd notion right? If a players going to injure someone he should at least have the decency to do it in the run of play.

Good to see you are following in the fine traditions of others, but perhaps a quick note to the less experienced US fan. Sometimes it will work against you please grow some balls and accept it.

Yes, yes take your ball and go home.

I've never seen a ref catagorize players as dirty, I though the fans did that after seing sufficient evidence. Maybe this is were we fundamentally part ways, we are all(for the most part, there is a little doubt about you but i'm pulling for you) capable of using our brains to judge a play, we don't really need a ref to sanction or not sanction a play to tell if a player is playing dirty .

Naw i'm sure thats standard practice in US camp to run over goalies when they are on the ground and in possesion of the ball.

So remind me has Mexico done something or not in the last 6 years. Which is what we are talking about here. I know its hard for you to immagine since i'm sure its your gratest moment, but the WC has been over for close to two years now. In the meanwhile, Mexico has done moderatly well for themselves. Not to mention the little fact that Mexico didn't exactly hurt themselves with their WC performance, sure it was disapointing the way we went out, but winning our group wasn't to bad of a performance.

Yes, you belong on this board... But do you belong in this conversation? You're main concern seems to be that you are angry because i'm on your boards telling the rest of you're little crew the truth and well we can't have that in the US boards.

Really now, I want to know were I insulted you. Is it were I said that US players are capable of fouling? Do me a favor and lay off the estrogen.

 

Sadly in US boards its if you have a difrent opinion from the regulars.

 

To Dark Knight: I just have to get this last post in for factual accuracy, since the truth of an assertion I made has been questioned. I hope you'll allow it.

Here's a line from a NY Times article from April 20, 1997:

I can't post a link because you have to pay $2.95 to view it in the archive. Now unless the NY Times is in the business a printing rumours I'm gonna assume this quote is accurate. Although given the variety of excuses made on this thread of Mexican behavior someone will find a way to cast doubt on it. And Lalas wasn't kicked in the "mid-section" he was kicked in the groin.

 

Just a question out of the blue. I see Robby Rogers was playing outside back according to US soccer. Wasn't this the kid that was a forward getting looks from Bayern Munich?

 

Thanks Imox. If they ever play together, my brain may explode.

 

Classy, indeed!

 

I'm really proud of our youngsters from this game - it's always exciting when the future of the USMNT acquits itself honorably in a tough game against a difficult opponent. Especially that underaged back line - that's guts and glory right there, facing down older players against a hostile crowd.

Plus, I like how this team reflects the country itself. We've got an African-American as a big star - and am I mistaken is guessing that Zimmerman is Jewish?- Mexican-American players such as Memo and Arturo, and even young Borja, right? Not to mention Polish-Americans such as Szetela. Now and again I like to bask in the view of the rainbow of talent that is a part of our soccer culture and heritage in the U.S.

Perhaps this is part of the reason why American fans are especially appalled and intolerant of racial abuse directed at players, such as the monkey chants the Mexican fans reportedly directed toward Adu. One poster who supports the mexican team did post that, according to a relative, a few of the ten or so American fans in attendance started calling the vastly numerically superior Mexican fans, "****************" (term for one whose back is damp), which, if true, means they are suicidally stupid or drunkenly frustrated with hearing chants supporting Osama in the U.S. and presumably imagining that anyone cheering for the killer of thousands must not have yet passed their citizenship test. I completely condemn such behavior, BTW, but I'm still not convinced it's true - NOT because I don't believe such morons exist as U.S. fans, but because even morons would probably hesitate to provoke a large number of fans who are crude enough to use racial invective and cheers for mass murderers at a youth soccer tournament.

I've learned other things about our team, too. Apparently, the fact that we have so few red cards against teams like Mexico, is that, while our soccer skills still need work, we've become amazingly good at fouling players without ever getting caught. It's interesting to note that we can look back at television replays and still not find evidence of this dirty play on the part of the U.S. I'm sure that Mexican fans will argue that our players are so good that they can tell when the camera will be on them at any time and foul only when they know it will not be called. That's some skill there. In fact, our players are so adept, apparently, that they've managed to gain an international reputation as a hardworking, hustling team, instead of the magically fouling-without-ever-getting caught team. We foul so well, according to this theory, that the reason other teams (except for Mexico) don't complain about this fouling, is that - er, they don't know they've been fouled? This makes no sense at all.

El Cabrito also posits that the U.S. teams are taught to foul early and often, and that the victimized Mexican players then get frustrated and earn red-cards on their retaliation fouls later in the game. Er, interesting that if he's figured this out, that the Mexican NT wouldn't notice this as a strategy and well, NOT retaliate, except by playing well and winning? But, that aside, let's look at the evidence for this theory, especially as relates to this game. Well, looky here, sure enough, three yellow cards in the first half. Except they're for Mexico. So much for that theory.
Here's another theory that's been advanced - that the U.S. fouls during the run of play with intent to injure. Well, despite all our apparent skill in fouling without getting caught we apparently suck at this injury accomplishment. Remind me again how many Mexican players have been injured by the U.S. team? In this game, specifically, which team had a player on the sidelines unable to continue because of a hack after the outcome of the game had been decided?
We could take some intent to injure tips from the Mexican player stomping a fallen U.S. player. Well, that's excusable, because he was getting payback for poor Sanchez, who was mowed down by a clumsy Casey, who despite looking ungainly and uncoordinated in every game I've ever seen, is deemed by the slo-mo analysis of a Mexican fan poster to have had vicious intent - because his leg did not bend enough to cushion the impact.
See, the Mexican team has a sense of history - the spitting on Adu was obviously a homage defense of Luis Hernandez - and it happened multiple times as part of a team tribute. The Mexican players couldn't be expected to know about Pope's spitting being provoked in defense of his teammate against Hernandez's vicious attack. Seriously, it's
not the Mexican's team's fault - not when press coverage like the article posted here does not mention the reason for the three red cards the Mexican team received. Wouldn't you be outraged, if you were a Mexican team supporter, reading about how your team got an seemingly random red card to go a man down and then, in stoppage time, according to the press reports, an apparently completely phantom penalty? No mention of the shoving of the ref, nothing to indicate anything other than that the team got completely robbed while fighting the good soccer fight on American soil, with an AMERICAN REF - despite the fact that all youth tournaments use local refs. Exactly - the Mexican players are not to blame.
Especially for their international reputation. No matter that CONCACAF opponents will single out the team out for dirty play. It's because they're jealous, Mexican fans will protest, because Mexico has dominated the region for so long. Except lately, not so much. So obviously, the U.S. has replaced Mexico as the team with the bad rep. Except, not so much. Or, at all, really.
South American teams - well, they're not even in our region, so one can expect objectivity from them, perhaps? Go ahead, ask an Argentine or Brazilian fan if they've watched their teams against Mexico and the U.S. Ask which team is more prone to cheap, vicious fouls with intent to injure? Poor sportsmanship? Are the Argies and Brazilians jealous as well?
Now, Mexico is capable of some great soccer - witness the pasting of the U.S. Olympic team - but a team improves through objective analysis of its actual faults. That's why Mexican posters on BigSoccer have rushed to this forum, to defend the honor of their country and point out that the players who commit such egregious action against the spirit of the game - such as those who attacked the ref - should have no future with the national team until they have proven to show more respect for the game. These posters have throughly condemned actions such as stomping on fallen players and injuring players when only a few seconds remain in a game. They've been disgusted by reports of racial taunts directed to a teenager who can't even drive. Except -- yeah, right.

 

rack that and rep him!!

great writing femfa!!!!

 

Sadly on the Mexican boards if you have a different opinion you are not only called a troll but the moderator (Various Styles) changes your post to "I'm a trollio give me negative rep please". Then all the Mexican fan posters start giving you rep for no other reason other than the moderator's message and not because it was something awful I said.

By the way people, I got a hell of a lot of bad rep on the Mexican boards for replying to a poster that was saying all we do is bitch. My reply was meant to show him we wouldn't bitch if we weren't spit on and kicked while on the ground by their team. So if you guys have kind hearts please give me some positive rep so I can try to balance this out a bit. Thanks folks!

 

No, no, you don't get it MightyMouse. The US fans must be completely PC and allow any all to come here and tell us what crap we are.

 

I could be wrong about this, but since I've been around his family and him. I'm going to say with 99% confidence Zimmerman is NOT jewish. Now that I've seen 2 people post this, I'm tempted to call him and set the record straight, but i have a feeling he'd laugh for asking. He and his brother are both as blond and blue eyed as they get...not that it doesn't mean he's not jewish, just I'm really doubtful he is.

 

there are ALOT of blonde blue eyed jews

 

Don't make me call and ask Drsmoo

 

im just sayin...

dont do it whatever, its just usually with that spelling it's jewish. But you dont have to, its not that big of a deal if he is or isnt

 

You mean we're NOT crap?!?!??


(dang, I missed the stupid memo again!)

Oh, on the contrary...some of this thread has been comedy of the highest order...

 

One of them is at PSV


From an email I received from PSV - "An American player called Robby Rogers played with the second team of PSV in a friendly match yesterday!!!"

 

I'm saying there's a double standard.