Roster, Draft Picks, Allocations, Discoveries: What we know, how we know it. [N&A]

Atouk · Nov 17, 2004

Diceson said:

Giving DCUnited another allocation not only allows them to pick up a good defender if Nelsen leaves, but also allows them to trade the second allocation for a high draft pick(s) - at least one first rounder plus another lower round - which would strengthen the bench when it expands to 28.
Click to expand...

That would be true if what you said you thought might happen yesterday doesn't happen -- that our Convey allocation had already been "allocated" for a player, Gomez, already on our roster (by forcing us to use it to sign him permanently).

Diceson · Nov 17, 2004

Atouk said:

That would be true if what you said you thought might happen yesterday doesn't happen -- that our Convey allocation had already been "allocated" for a player, Gomez, already on our roster (by forcing us to use it to sign him permanently).
Click to expand...

Yep, another possibility. Let me re-itterate that I don't know what the status on Gomez is at this point. Like most on these boards I'm now confused over what the WP said was a "long, complicated loan deal". The quotes I got from DKasper immediately after the deal was struck were that the team used a "discovery option", and that the team "owns" him. Obviously there is a miscommunication somewhere and it needs to be straightened out. My idea that the league will force DCUnited to use a discovery or allocation on re-acquiring Gomez is strickly my speculation.

If DCUnited gets another allocation, then it will only be stronger. The more options a team has, the stronger it will be in the end. Also remember that the allocation process will probably be that much more important if the salary budget goes up more than the simple rate of inflation, which has been happening in recent years. Another reporter at MLS Cup told me that there's the possibility that the budget could go up to $2 to 2.3million/team.

I know that DK and KP will make the same outstanding arguements that you've made. I'm sure that they'll have some that we don't know about. I think it will come down to how generous the league is feeling towards teams for next season.

Knave · Nov 20, 2004

... The Most Arcane Thread Ever :: Now with extra-abstruse esoterica ...

Final update on this thread.

I'll start a new thread for the 2005 season with the next major update.

... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...

:: Updated :: November 25, 2004 ::

Coach

Head Coach :: Peter Nowak
Assistant Coach :: Tom Soehn
Assistant Coach :: Mark Simpson

Roster :: 28 Maximum :: 21 Currently
Code:
Adu, Freddy		P-40
Stokes, David		P-40
Thompson, Jason		P-40

Kuffour, Nana 		DEV, DISC, Y-I

Carroll, Brian		SEN
Eskandarian, Alecko	SEN
Gros, Joshua		SEN
Lawson, Tim		SEN
Namoff, Bryan		SEN
Olsen, Ben		SEN
Perkins, Troy		SEN
Petke, Mike		SEN
Prideaux, Brandon	SEN
Quaranta, Santino	SEN
Rimando, Nick		SEN

Kovalenko, Dema		SEN, GC

Quintanilla, Eliseo	SEN, DISC, Y-I

Gomez, Christian	SEN, DISC, S-I 
Moreno, Jaime		SEN, S-I
Nelsen, Ryan		SEN, S-I
Roster Key

Note 1 :: The information here will be provisional for a while until MLS discloses the 2005 roster rules. Here's one press release with many updated details. I'll update this section as information becomes available. In the absence of new information, I'm assuming the old rules still apply.

DEV = Developmental (DEV + P-40 = 10 players max, 24 years and younger)
P-40 = Project 40 (P-40 + DEV = 10 players max, 24 years and younger)
DISC = Discovery Player (4 senior players max, may add max 2 senior discoveries per year, unlimited developmental discoveries)
GC = Green Card
SEN = Counts against the senior roster (18 players max)
S-I = Senior International (4 players max. 25 years and older)
Y-I = Youth International (3 players max, 5 players max on expansion teams for first two season, 24 years and younger, may be signed to either developmental or senior team contracts)
???? = In limbo. Likely will sign, but hasn't yet officially.

Note 1 :: We have 20 players: 4 are roster protected (developmental or P-40), and 16 are senior team.

Note 2 :: We can acquire 2 more senior players (1 of which may be a senior international), and 6 more roster protected players.

Note 3 :: The injured reserve system has reportedly been ended. But the details of the season ending injury system, as well as the details of Lawson's acquisition as a replacement player for an injured Thiago Martins aren't 100% clear. There's some suggestion that although MLS has ended the old injured reserve system (you can get another player, but you get no additional money), has been replaced with a system whereby you can replace and injured player, but you get no additional money (just don't call it injured reserve).

Draft Picks

:: 2005 ::

1st Round :: Natural pick to MetroStars for rights to Jaime Moreno. See note 2.
2nd Round :: Natural pick to KC for 2004 24th pick (Ara). Acquired the rights to Colorado's highest second round pick in exchange for the rights to a discovery selection. See the discovery section below.
3rd Round :: Natural pick to KC for 2004 24th pick (Ara).
4th Round :: Natural pick to Dallas for rights to Ezra Hendrickson. See note 5.
5th Round :: Natural pick. But see note 5.
6th Round :: Natural pick to Dallas for rights to Jason Thompson. See note 4.

:: 2006 ::

1st Round :: Natural pick.
2nd Round :: Natural pick.
3rd Round :: Natural pick.
4th Round :: Natural pick to Dallas in trade for Jason Thompson.
5th Round :: Natural pick.
6th Round :: Natural pick.

Note 1 :: The 2004 24th pick was originally our natural pick. It was dealt to KC as part of the deal that brought Quintanilla to DC United. The pick was then traded back to us on draft day for our natural 2nd and 3rd round picks in 2005. Hence, it's now effectively as if the Quintanilla deal was for the 2005 2nd and 3rd round picks. We have now regained one of these lost picks via a trade with Colorado for the rights to a DC United discovery player. Also, see note 2.

Note 2 :: See the future considerations section below. According to Steven Goff "If Moreno plays in 20 of 30 regular season games, the MetroStars will receive United's first-round pick. Otherwise, they would get a second- or third-round pick." The MetroStars have now acquired our first round 2005 pick by this deal.

Note 3 :: DC United may owe San Jose a conditional 2005 draft pick for Devin Barclay. It is unknown what the conditions were, and whether those conditions were met.

Note 4 :: According to Tobias Lopez of the Star Telegram "The Burn traded forward Jason Thompson to D.C. United for a fourth-round pick in the 2006 draft and a conditional pick in 2005. If Thompson appears in seven or more matches, the 2005 pick is a fifth-rounder. If not, it's a sixth-round pick. " Thompson appeared in fewer than seven matches, and so Dallas has acquired our sixth round 2005 pick by this deal.

Note 5 :: There's some confusion about the 2005 fourth and fifth round picks. According to the original deal DC United owes Dallas the fifth round pick and future considerations for the rights to Ezra Hendrickson. However, Steven Goff reports that "it appears the club will only have a second- and fifth-round pick -- the result of several trades the past two years." The source for that information was Dave Kasper. This suggests that Dallas has collected on those future considerations to move up to the fourth round selection. I'm listing Dallas with our fourth round pick, and I'm adding this note while we're waiting for clarification on this question.

Allocations

Note 1:: DC United will receive a major player allocation from the league following Bobby Convey's transfer to Reading.

Note 2 :: It was presumed that we would get one for Etcheverry, but nothing has ever been said officially on this matter. If we do it will almost certainly (95% positive) go to Dallas for the future considerations we owe them for the number one overall draft pick. This story supports that idea, and there's a quote from a "top MLS official" here stating that "The allocation that (United) will get is for Marco." Still, there's been no public notice about an allocation since Etcheverry's retirement.

Discoveries

The regulations that began the 2004 season state that MLS teams can have a maximum of four discovery players on their senior rosters at any time, and that teams may add a maximum of two discovery players to their senior rosters a year. However, sometime during the season the regulations were apparently changed to provide for three discovery options per season. Peter Wilt confirms this change. The regulations also state that teams have unlimited discovery opportunities for developmental players.

In 2004 Quintanilla and Gomez were the only senior team discovery players on the roster. Kuffour is a discovery player as well, but he's on a developmental contract. So his signing doesn't count against the maximum of four on the senior team, or the maximum of two discovery signings per year. However, we traded the rights to one of 2004's discovery players to Colorado in exchange for Colorado's highest second round selection in the 2005 MLS SuperDraft. (See the draft section above.) Because of this trade we only had one senior team discovery left last year. That was used for Gomez. Apparently Lawson is not considered a discovery player because he was a domestic player acquired to replace another domestic player (Martins) with a season ending injury.

The bottom line is that we currently have three discovery players on the roster, but only two are on the senior team, and it appears on this evidence that we could have added one more senior discovery in 2004. This is confirmed by Dave Kasper who has stated that we still had one discovery option left.

Discoveries do not roll-over into the next year. So in 2005 we will start fresh with three discovery options. However, we still have two discovery players on our senior roster. Consequently we can only use two of our discovery options unless someone is cut or traded. Finally, with roster expansion it would not be at all surprising if the discovery rules were changed for 2005. However, those changes have not yet been announced.

There remains considerable debate about how much money we have available to us to use towards transfer fees etc. See page 2 of this thread. There's also some suggestion that the money has been increased. Going on the old information, these are the basics as best as I can determine. Teams have $100K to use as transfer fees on discovery players. A team can use up to three years worth of fees at one time (a special discovery). Unspent money is lost. DCUnited used 2002, 2003 and 2004's transfer money to acquire Reyes. Whether we now have the 2005 and 2006 money available is uncertain. However, on occasion alternative arrangements can be made. Q2 was a special discovery and playing a friendly against his old team paid a portion of his transfer fee. Suffice it to say nobody really knows how these work or what our current discovery situation is.

Future Considerations

Note 1 :: The Columbus Crew owe DC United future considerations for Devin Barclay.

Note 2 :: Future considerations owed by DC United to Dallas for 2004 SuperDraft first overall pick. It is widely believed that these future considerations amount to a major player allocation.

Note 3 :: Future considerations owed by DC United to the MetroStars for the rights to Jaime Moreno. According to Steven Goff, "If Moreno plays in 20 of 30 regular season games, the MetroStars will receive United's first-round pick. Otherwise, they would get a second- or third-round pick." See the draft section above.

Note 4 :: Future considerations owed by Dallas to DC United for the rights to Milton Reyes. According to DCUnited.com "Additional considerations will apply if Reyes is added to the 2004 final roster for Dallas."

Note 5 :: Future considerations owed by DC United to Dallas for the rights to Ezra Hendrickson.

Note 6 :: Future considerations owed by DC United to Dallas for Jason Thompson. These future considerations are likely either a 5th or 6th round pick in the 2005 SuperDraft. See the draft section above for more on that.

Useful Links

DC United Transactions

MLS Regulations

DC United Roster (DCUnited.com/MLSNet)

Key Dates on the 2004 MLS Competition Calendar

Expansion Draft Rules

... ... ...

I will update this post/thread as more information becomes available and as corrections and additions are made.

Th4119 · Nov 20, 2004

If you haven't repped Knave for his work on this thread alone, you should have that ability stripped from you.

tallguy · Nov 20, 2004

Diceson said:

I know that DK and KP will make the same outstanding arguements that you've made. I'm sure that they'll have some that we don't know about. I think it will come down to how generous the league is feeling towards teams for next season.
Click to expand...

Good point. I doubt if MLS will give us anything much. Probably the only way to upgrade the roster for 2005 will be through discoveries or trades.

Section106 · Nov 20, 2004

So what happens if we get a minor allocation for Nellie? Can we couple that with discovery money if need be? Does the minor allocation still exist?

Serie Zed · Nov 21, 2004

What the hell does "generous" have to do with anything? Are there rules or not?

Why you guys continue to be willing to act like this is some sort of playground negotiation between six year olds arguing over a candy bar is beyond me. This is a professional sport. And it's a professional sport where a SINGLE ENTITY controls everything that happens. That's cause for the rules to be MORE explicitly stated and MORE closely followed. Not less.

Quit accepting the flim flam coming from MLS like stupid sheep and they'll stop giving it to you.

Diceson · Nov 24, 2004

I thought this tidbit was important enough to be included:

"According to the MLSPU, the current $24,000 minimum salary will increase to $28,000 in 2005 and 2006, $30,000 in 2007, $33,000 in 2008, and $34,000 in 2009.

Beginning next season, developmental players, who are paid well below the minimum, will have their salaries increase "significantly," as well as receiving fully-paid medical benefits for the first time, the union said.

A 401(k) plan will be established, providing for a mandatory league contribution of 2 percent of each player's base salary in 2005, increasing annually to 3 percent in 2009. In addition to guaranteed full health care, paid by MLS, life insurance benefits will increase five-fold, the union said.

The players apparently made no advance on their desire to eventually gain free agency. Currently, MLS clubs retain negotiating rights to players on their roster, even when said players' contracts expire."
Source - Soccertimes.com

swedcrip34 · Nov 24, 2004

Diceson said:

I thought this tidbit was important enough to be included:

"According to the MLSPU, the current $24,000 minimum salary will increase to $28,000 in 2005 and 2006, $30,000 in 2007, $33,000 in 2008, and $34,000 in 2009.

Beginning next season, developmental players, who are paid well below the minimum, will have their salaries increase "significantly," as well as receiving fully-paid medical benefits for the first time, the union said.

A 401(k) plan will be established, providing for a mandatory league contribution of 2 percent of each player's base salary in 2005, increasing annually to 3 percent in 2009. In addition to guaranteed full health care, paid by MLS, life insurance benefits will increase five-fold, the union said.

The players apparently made no advance on their desire to eventually gain free agency. Currently, MLS clubs retain negotiating rights to players on their roster, even when said players' contracts expire."
Source - Soccertimes.com
Click to expand...

It's still better than the NHL. They have better options overseas when their contrdacts expire. And after 2 years their team loses their "rights" if what we think is true. In the NHL the team has their rights until 31 y/o. In the NFL teams can tag a guy a "franchise player". In the NBA, the "rights" team can almost always offer more money under the cap. So really MLB is the one with full free agency, and noone is trying to copy their model.

terp fan · Nov 24, 2004

Diceson said:

I thought this tidbit was important enough to be included:

"According to the MLSPU, the current $24,000 minimum salary will increase to $28,000 in 2005 and 2006, $30,000 in 2007, $33,000 in 2008, and $34,000 in 2009.

Beginning next season, developmental players, who are paid well below the minimum, will have their salaries increase "significantly," as well as receiving fully-paid medical benefits for the first time, the union said.

A 401(k) plan will be established, providing for a mandatory league contribution of 2 percent of each player's base salary in 2005, increasing annually to 3 percent in 2009. In addition to guaranteed full health care, paid by MLS, life insurance benefits will increase five-fold, the union said.

The players apparently made no advance on their desire to eventually gain free agency. Currently, MLS clubs retain negotiating rights to players on their roster, even when said players' contracts expire."
Source - Soccertimes.com
Click to expand...

This deal is subject to player ratification which is currently ongoing.

elconejito · Nov 24, 2004

Serie Zed said:

What the hell does "generous" have to do with anything? Are there rules or not?
Click to expand...

in a word.... no

shawn12011 · Nov 25, 2004

Here are the latest changes to MLS rosters sizes and the like.

http://www.mlsnet.com/MLS/news/mls_news.jsp?ymd=20041124&content_id=19598&vkey=news_mls&fext=.jsp

11/24/2004 12:30PM
MLS announces expanded team roster sizes and international player limits in 2005
Increase in Senior and Youth International slots accompanies increase in roster sizes from 24 to 28 players
Major League Soccer
NEW YORK - Major League Soccer today announced an expansion of team roster sizes and an increase in the number of international players allowed per team for the 2005 season.
While MLS team rosters will each consist of 28 players, an increase from 24 players in 2004, the numbers of senior international players and youth international players allowed per team will also rise. Teams may begin to add international players to their rosters beginning on December 1, 2004. The details of the changes follow below.

"Major League Soccer is committed to continuing to improve the level of competition and grow the depth of the talent pool in our League," said MLS Deputy Commissioner Ivan Gazidis. "Our teams have developed some of the world's top American and international soccer players in recent years and we look forward to even more stars emerging from this significantly larger player base."

ROSTER SIZES: In 2005 each MLS team will have 28 total roster spots comprised of 18 senior players and 10 developmental players. Developmental players can only be 24 years old or younger.

SENIOR INTERNATIONAL PLAYERS: Starting next season each team will be allowed four senior internationals, foreign players not holding green cards who are 25 years of age and older during a given season, an increase from the three-man senior international limit in 2004.

YOUTH INTERNATIONAL PLAYERS: Starting in 2005 every MLS team will have three slots for youth international players, foreign players not holding green cards who are 24 years of age and younger during a given season. Youth international players can be signed to either senior player contracts or developmental player contracts.

In addition, the two MLS expansion teams, Club Deportivo Chivas USA and Real Salt Lake, will receive two additional youth international player slots (a total of five) for their first two years of existence. All youth international player spots may also be traded, which is not the case with senior international player slots.

The changes to the youth international structure will double the number of slots League-wide compared to 2004. Last year the League pool consisted of 20 youth international players while 2005 will feature a maximum of 40 such players.

Major League Soccer's 12 clubs continue their preparations to celebrate the League's 10th season in 2005 as the two new expansion teams join the fold. Following the MLS Expansion Draft on November 19 and the opening of the trade window on November 22, Club Deportivo Chivas USA and Real Salt Lake join 10 other teams in building new squads this offseason with the 2005 MLS SuperDraft looming on Friday, January 14.

Serie Zed · Nov 25, 2004

Very cool. Not least of which because there's probably an increase in the salary cap to go with that increase and teams will gain a tiny bit more flexibility in how they pay players.

28-man rosters will also allow another 50 players to be in a professional environment every day. I'd expect that each year the league will see a player or two who blooms late emerge from the bottom of the depth chart into a contributor for his team too.

swedcrip34 · Dec 22, 2004

Not sure if anyone discussed Gomez's long-term signing here.

I don't think I ever heard (doubt anyone did), if it did cost the Convey allocation or a 2005 discovery?

Knave · Dec 22, 2004

swedcrip34 said:

Not sure if anyone discussed Gomez's long-term signing here.

I don't think I ever heard (doubt anyone did), if it did cost the Convey allocation or a 2005 discovery?
Click to expand...

Yeah, I've gotta update this. Over the holiday weekend probably.

Dyson says it cost a portion of Convey's allocation. Do a search on his posts (Diceson) and you'll find the note about it.

swedcrip34 · Dec 22, 2004

Knave said:

Yeah, I've gotta update this. Over the holiday weekend probably.

Dyson says it cost a portion of Convey's allocation. Do a search on his posts (Diceson) and you'll find the note about it.
Click to expand...

cool, I get that dividing up the money in allocations can be a good thing, but I'd like to see MLS start explaining some of this! especially "loans". i've heard way too many conflicting things about what's allowed and what's not allowed as far as loans go.

tallguy · Dec 23, 2004

swedcrip34 said:

cool, I get that dividing up the money in allocations can be a good thing, but I'd like to see MLS start explaining some of this! especially "loans". i've heard way too many conflicting things about what's allowed and what's not allowed as far as loans go.
Click to expand...

Yes, indeed. This whole "allocation" business seems to be as big a mystery in terms of how it works, in practice. as "stoppage time." All the same, Gomez was worth whatever he cost in Convey "allocation" worth.

In my opinion, Gomez was the final ingredient to the mix that took DCU over the top -- the man was far more significant to DCU's chemistry than Convey has been over the past couple of seasons. Now, if DCU can only get Gomez in shape for the upcoming season and teach him some Babelfish English lessons.

Jose L. Couso · Dec 23, 2004

I agree with the Gomez analysis.

I am also happy to read that DC United has the 16th pick, and the 48th and 60th picks (according to 3rd degree over in the MLS News & analysis). I think Piotr Nowak will manage to find a decent player with that 16th pick.

swedcrip34 · Dec 23, 2004

Jose L. Couso said:

I agree with the Gomez analysis.

I am also happy to read that DC United has the 16th pick, and the 48th and 60th picks (according to 3rd degree over in the MLS News & analysis). I think Piotr Nowak will manage to find a decent player with that 16th pick.
Click to expand...

THat's a dangerous part of the draft. Last year it turned out the draft was 14 deep in "sure bets" (Grabavoy at 14). Colorado got Gregorio at 15 (he went to Europe) and Cann at 16. The next 5 picks are basically all still around but played very little to none as rookies.

tallguy · Dec 23, 2004

swedcrip34 said:

THat's a dangerous part of the draft. Last year it turned out the draft was 14 deep in "sure bets" (Grabavoy at 14). Colorado got Gregorio at 15 (he went to Europe) and Cann at 16. The next 5 picks are basically all still around but played very little to none as rookies.
Click to expand...

All too true. But, there seem to be a lot of bargains out there if you're lucky or if you know what you're doing. It almost seems to me that the pro soccer draft is kind of where the NFL or NBA drafts were in the 60's or 70's -- everybody knows who the big names and the big schools are, but there are a lot of "gems in the rough" out there playing in relative obscurity for second or third tier NCAA colleges. Case in point -- Troy Perkins of the University of Evansville.

3rd Degree · Dec 23, 2004

Here is out picks page....
http://3rddegree.matchnight.com/thirdindex.cfm?page=article&keyword=SUPERDRAFT

while I would not take it as gospel, it's fairly good.

And I can solve your Ezra/Reyes prolem. According to FCD, the conditionals for Reyes were given back for Hendrickson... so it's a wash. Ezra for Reyes.

Jose L. Couso · Dec 23, 2004

swedcrip34 said:

THat's a dangerous part of the draft. Last year it turned out the draft was 14 deep in "sure bets" (Grabavoy at 14). Colorado got Gregorio at 15 (he went to Europe) and Cann at 16. The next 5 picks are basically all still around but played very little to none as rookies.
Click to expand...

While there are no guarantees how long the "sure bets" will last in any draft, I can speculate that if a Gregorio was around for the 16th pick and he had a choice of going to DC United he may think hard about going to a 2nd rate league in Europe.

That is certainly one advantage that DC United will have in a draft.

The fact that DC United is the MLS Champion is another.

And most importantly the fact that Piotr Nowak does play rookies, and gives them significant amounts of playing time, is yet another.

ps-Thanks for the draft table 3rdDegree!

Lanky134 · Dec 23, 2004

Jose L. Couso said:

While there are no guarantees how long the "sure bets" will last in any draft, I can speculate that if a Gregorio was around for the 16th pick and he had a choice of going to DC United he may think hard about going to a 2nd rate league in Europe.

That is certainly one advantage that DC United will have in a draft.

The fact that DC United is the MLS Champion is another.
Click to expand...

Does the name Keith Beach sound familiar?

Jose L. Couso · Dec 24, 2004

The voice of reason is back!

Merry Xmas!

JoeSoccerFan · Jan 1, 2005

Jose L. Couso said:

The voice of reason is back!

Merry Xmas!
Click to expand...

According to this article, DCU "could" have a 1st round pick

"The Metros have but a handful of picks for the Jan.14 SuperDraft in Baltimore. They have the option of taking D.C. United's first-round choice in 2005 or 2006 as compensation for the Jaime Moreno trade."