I think one of the mistakes most often made is assuming that MLS style parity exists anywhere else. In most "second tier" leagues - SPL, Portugal, the Scandis, Holland, the difference between the top 2 (in the case of SPL) to the top 5 (in the case of Holland this year) to the bottom is just huge - in everything from talent to facilities to salary to fan support (save the odd Sunderland or the like who get pretty good gate.) So rather than comparing leagues, it really needs to be a team to team thing. And what is the point of this? Plenty of players don't "fit" on a team or a league, but are still really good players that thrive when the move, even if it's to a "harder" league. Oh yeah, in the sake of disclosure, I had MLS season tickets in '96 and this year and a few years in between, saw every game but the final of the '94 WC played in LA, saw every FSW game of the '97 - '98 SPL, have seen dozens and dozens of Ered games over the past 10 years, some live, most on the tube. Saw a good number of NCAA Div. 1 game, A-league games in the summer of 2003, have seen all of my daughter's U-7 games this year and have seen a fair smattering of EPL, Bund, Nationwide and French games. And I once watched the Brazilian beach soccer team give an exhibition.
That's good info. Thrylos - how many MLS matches have you seen? How many Greek matches? How do you think the two leagues compare?
Mexico doesn't attrack talent? Where have you been all this years? A large number of southamericans internationals play on Mexico. Cruz Azul argentineans are worth over 25 million USD according to some sources, for example.
I though West received some sort of league honor for his season to date? http://www.yanks-abroad.com/content.php?mode=news&id=000310 Brian West Despite logging only seven minutes during Fredrikstad's final two matches of the season, American Brian West has been named to the Norwegian Team of the Year, finishing as the second highest rated player in Norway. The top rated player for the season, Scotland's Robbie Winters, finished just .07 points ahead of West. Thank you Yanks-Abroad.com
Parity in MLS makes it difficult to judge it vs. other leagues. The difference between the top and bottom of MLS is minimal; just look at this year's table. Arguably the teams at the bottom just happened to be unluckier than average with injuries. As a result, comparing top teams doesn't work. Celtic, Olympiakos, Galatasaray, and similar clubs will beat MLS clubs in almost every match - but that doesn't mean MLS is of a lower standard than the Scottish, Greek, and Turkish leagues. Instead, the comparison that needs to be made is all of MLS vs. mid-table clubs. As another result of parity, MLS ends up with an unusual distribution of talent. In most leagues, with the exception of a handful of star players playing for smaller clubs, the level of talent within each team is fairly even; there isn't really that much difference between the 3rd-best player and the 16th-best player. Top talent tends to go to top clubs, so the gulf in class between the top and bottom teams can be huge. Few players at relegation-zone clubs would have any shot at starting for mid-table clubs. In MLS, however, the salary cap and the draft cause talent to be distributed relatively evenly across the league. What that means, however, is that there's a big gap between the best players in each team and the end of the bench. Once injuries start to hit, each MLS team generally ends up starting one or two players fairly regularly who really have no business starting games at that level - but by the same token every MLS team has at least one or two players who are capable of competing at a much higher level, which probably cannot be said for any other league in the world.
are any of these players good? i'm not sure but i think figoera signed for a big mexican team and he couldn't even get into the birmingham city starting eleven and rarely made it onto the bench.
Okay, so we've got 1) Parity lowers the level of play. 2) Lack of depth lowers the level of play 3) Lack of incentives lowers the level of play 4) MLS compares favorably to the middle of the pack in most European leagues. What about in the technical aspects? I notice that few MLS players can hit a good pass in the air. When you watch a player in Europe, they can hit a 20 yard chip over the defense, or a 40 yard pass to the feet or the head. If they are off, its usually on the side of being long rather than short. Time: Players in European appear to have less time on the ball. Could be a factor of the heat, but even in March, April, May, September, October in New England - players have a lot of time on the ball.
Yes, but it's well known that Argentinians (and most South Americans) tend to do badly in England. Completely different tactics and they stress different qualities in their players.
Another problem with comparing MLS(30) with the rest of the world (300+) is that there is a lot of parity in the overall roster. A recent article has been written to indicate that the level of the average MLS player has risen substantially but the level of the top players has fallen. When they started, MLS wanted to have at least one star in every single team. Now most of these stars have retired to be replaced with less flamboyant figures. This has lead to a lack of difference-makers in the field. MLS is falling victim to the same problem that all the Americas leagues (except for Mexico) have fallen to. Euro-Pillaging! MLS has lost Mathis, Howard, DaMarcus Beasley and may soon lose Donovan. MLS is now depending on very, very young American players to provide spark on the field.
Like a couple of guys have said, you can't compare MLS to other leagues directly. Because of the salary cap, all MLS games have pretty much a uniform level of play. In European leagues, where there's no salary cap, there no uniform level of play that can be applied to the league as a whole. The best you can do is to single out individual teams and try to compare. I don't really think MLS can be successful without the salary cap and parity. It's hard to draw in fans from multiple cities when like 75% of the teams have no chance at winning the championship. I think that works in Europe, because they are much more immersed in the sport and more loyal to their teams and, in general, have a higher tolerance for losing. In America, we just can't deal with that kind of hopelessness, season after season. I don't know how those guys do it.
In all honesty, it's probable that we don't watch the lower rated teams very much. For instance, I only watch Champion's league as far as European football goes. I am sure most teams in Europe have at least one team that is at a better level than MLS teams. Those are the ones we watch, but how about the mid-level teams? Frankly, I've only been able to watch mid-level teams in Bolivia (200) and Argentinia(50) an average Bolivian team (say Real Potosi) is definetly below MLS level while a mid-level Argie team (say Talleres de Cordoba) had some things they'd do better and some things they'd do worse.
Nelsen is reported to be going to the Premiership. MLS can't be too bad because all our players are getting bought!
Well, they are good enough to play on Argentina MNT. Figueroa came to Cruz Azul thanks to a recomendation from his long time pal "Chelito" Delgado. His start on Cruz Azul was slow, he soon was relegated to the bench and had very few time play. One of the most dramatic moments I remember was on a Cruz Azul - Toluca game; Cruz Azul was losing at home on the last minutes of the game so the coach decided to give another oportunity to Figueroa, he entered the field and on his first play he was redcarded, you could see the tears on his and his father eyes. However, sometime and at the end of the championship he exploded. I still remember the epic battle he had againts my Pumas on the play-offs, was really a hard game. Figueroa and Chelito won the gold medal at the olympics and now are part of Argentina National Team. Both started on yesterday game againts Venezuela.
On FSW, I've seen lower level EPL teams and a few early rounds of Carling Cup and FA Cup with lower division teams - Sorry - But skills are quite a bit ragged - Poor first touches - Long passes to nobody or the other team's goallee - Passes flailing around all over the place - Fast pace - But a mindlessly fast pace And any MLS team could compete favorably with these teams in the short run - Not with the few giants - But with the bottom half of Division one - The only major difference is that MLS teams have too little money for longer benches - The talent is there, but there is not enough depth for the long run
We've covered the depth. MLS is making a nice stride with the new roster size though. As long as we have Marshall Leonard and Joey Franchino we're going to struggle to compete with any first division sides almost anywhere I have to take my "perfect passing" back from the Euros. In some matches, the passing can be poor. I was surprised at a few lobs the guys in the PSG v Marseille match were kicking about.
With respect to how many greek and mls matches ive seen - i watch both leagues each and every weekend, so suffice it to say i can speak comfortably on each competition. on how they compare, let me first say a few things about greece, to give you and anyone else interested a better frame of reference. the greek championship has and most likely always will be largely dominated by olympiakos, panathinaikos, and aek. the 3 clubs account for 62 of 68 greek first division championships to date (olympiakos 32, panathinaikos 19, aek 11) and their stranglehold on the championship has only been interrupted twice since 1980 (paok 1985, larisa 1988). the championship's recent history, though, has seen a steady increase in quality and competitiveness, especially in the last three seasons, and i believe, as do many others, that this trend can and will continue for a while. of course, the true title contenders continue to be the "big 3" and paok (in the northern city of thessaloniki), but the days where these teams run over the rest of the competition seem to be fading. there is now a strong second tier in the league that play good football and consistently take points off the traditional powers - a tier comprised of teams like egaleo (2004/05 UEFA Cup participants and currently 5th in greek table), xalkidona (currently 6th in greek table), and skoda xanthi (currently 3rd in greek table). to make things simple, these days the teams that finish 4-7 in greece play some good football are quite difficult to beat. to illustrate the point, see olympiakos. greece's dominant domestic club, which has won roughly 50% of greece's championships and currently sits in first place in uefa champions league group a, has just 4 wins from 7 matches this season, good enough for just fourth place. so, i've gone on at length about this second tier because the comparison with mls really begins here. we must leave olympiakos, panathinaikos, and aek out of the discussion. imho, the best couple of mls teams, year after year, are on par, more or less, with the teams who finish 6-7 in greece. in greece, after the champions league caliber teams, the next couple of teams have recently been quite good. this year it would be teams like egaleo and skoda xanthi and i really believe either of these teams would be probable winners of the mls cup. not a certainly, the disparity is not that big - no, its quite small actually - but i believe these teams are better than, say, this year's dc united. so i'd say that you can take the mls cup champion of any year - or how about this year's dc united - and you could expect them to battle for one of the last uefa cup spots and finishing around 6th place.
Great stuff Thrylos as always. Thanks for that. That seems to be the trend in Holland as well, with AZ and FC U, and Heerenveen taking big steps towards closing the gap. Wish I could give out some reputation, but I'm all repped out today.
I think the big and yet subtle difference here is that while the European players are generally more skillful, an average MLS team could probably cover them defensively rather thoroughly. In a rough analogy, it's sort of like comparing a very well trained Pinceton team under Pete Carrill with all its precise off-the-ball movement and impeccable passing and shooting with a far more athletic but somewhat poorly led Florida State under Pat Kennedy or Arkansas under Nolan Richardson. At a certain point, raw athleticism negates the superior skill. That's why it was so surprising to most fair and neutral observers when the US played Portugal very evenly at the World Cup despite having only a few players of comparable skill. However well Fernando Couto or Rui Costa could pass flawlessly out of the back, in that game they looked like clysdales in a race against the thoroughbreds. And yet, when you watch a football game - US or world - it's just as hard to judge whether someone is running a 4.4 40 if everyone else runs roughly at the same speed as it is to judge a game where everyone runs a 4.7 40. In other words, when you watch an Anderlecht or BYU, it can be an entertaning game in its own milieu. Only when pitted against the likes of Werder Bremen or USC does one begin to see the athletic disadvantages of smaller leagues. Yet, it's usually more fun to see skill than raw unpolished talent unless it's something like Phi Slamma Jamma of 1983 and it's more fun to see a top Jupiler or Eredivisie contest than the MLS.
Honestly, this is one of the most intelligent,entertaining, factual and most importantly dead on posts I have ever read about the ins and outs of MLS. I agree with 100% of this post. Absolute genious. All of this is due to the fact that MLS is only 10 years old. If it continues to grow at the current pace, someday our grandchildren will be able to enjoy one of the greatest soccer leagues in the world, here in their own home.
I assume you're fairly young and can wait until your grandchildren grow up to enjoy the league within the next 35-50 years. I'd like to see the league improve faster than its fairly leasurely pace.
A lot of the charm of soccer disappeared with the Bosman ruling. I'd like the EC (i.e. most bloated bureaucracy in the world) to allow rulings where most of a European team has to be of that country's nationals so the Premier League is largely English, Bundesliga mainly German, etc. This would lead once more to a situation where different country's produce different styles of play. And that is an advantage and disadvantage of MLS: primarily American players even if their skill levels are lower than might be expected.
Not quite. It lowers the level of play at the top of the league, but raises the bottom. No one in MLS is so poor as to be unwatchable. I would argue that this statement is biased, not necessarily intentionally, but as a result of what appears on television. You rarely see relegation battles on TV. This is even more the case in the United States, where networks that show soccer are likely to always try to show at least one top team because that's what most viewers want to see.
Has anyone done a breakdown of nationalities in various leagues? Outside of the "big 4 or 5" and the top teams on the second tier, I would bet the ratio is not far off MLS, especially with the additional foreigner slot. Certainly the 2nd divisions are mostly "home grown" either by law, in some cases, or by logistics in others. A guy just isn't so likely to leave Osnabrucke to play for Clydesbank if his family and friends are living in Paisley (unless he's trying to duck them or get the hell out of town, which in Paisley is fairly likely.)
Hey - isn't Arsenal all players of the same nationality? You're right Friesland. But for some reason you don't see people slagging on and trying to fold Osnabruecke for playing poor quality soccer like they do on MLS.
I did, at some point in 2003. At the time, I got the following... I'll list every country that represents at least 1% of the players in a league. MLS: USA - 179 (76.5%) Jamaica - 6 (2.6%) Argentina - 5 (2.1%) Bolivia, El Salvador, Honduras, New Zealand - 3 each 24 other countries represented A-League: USA - 261 (62.4%) Canada - 74 (17.7%) England - 12 (2.9%) Brazil - 9 (2.2%) Jamaica - 8 Argentina, Mexico - 5 each 18 other countries represented English Premier League: England - 264 (44.8%) France - 49 (8.3%) Ireland - 38 (6.5%) Scotland - 26 (4.4%) Wales - 14 Netherlands - 13 Australia - 11 Germany, Italy, Sweden - 10 each Denmark, Northern Ireland, Norway - 9 each Brazil - 7 Argentina, Finland, Nigeria, Portugal, USA - 6 each 38 other countries represented English First Division: England - 403 (65.8%) Ireland - 37 (6.0%) Scotland - 31 (5.1%) Wales - 24 (3.9%) Northern Ireland - 16 Australia - 15 France - 10 Jamaica - 8 Netherlands - 7 32 other countries represented English Second Division: England - 457 (76.9%) Wales - 28 (4.7%) Scotland - 26 (4.4%) Ireland - 23 (3.9%) Northern Ireland - 15 Netherlands - 6 18 other countries represented Spanish Primera Liga: Spain - 351 (69.0%) Argentina - 49 (9.6%) Brazil - 27 (5.3%) Uruguay - 14 (2.8%) Netherlands - 9 Serbia & Montenegro - 7 France, Portugal - 6 each 26 other countries represented Spanish Segunda A: Spain - 428 (82.8%) Argentina - 40 (7.7%) Serbia & Montenegro - 7 (1.4%) Brazil, Portugal, Uruguay - 5 each 18 other countries represented Italian Serie A: Italy - 312 (67.8%) Brazil - 22 (4.8%) Argentina - 16 (3.5%) France - 13 (2.8%) Serbia & Montenegro, Uruguay - 8 each Denmark - 6 Ghana, Netherlands - 5 each 36 other countries represented Italian Serie B: Italy - 508 (83.0%) Brazil - 17 (2.8%) Argentina, France - 11 each (1.8% each) Uruguay - 6 30 other countries represented German Bundesliga: Germany - 235 (48.5%) Brazil - 26 (5.4%) Croatia - 16 (3.3%) Czech Republic - 13 (2.7%) Argentina - 11 Denmark, Poland - 10 each Netherlands - 9 Austria, Belgium, France, Switzerland - 8 each Bulgaria, Cameroon, Serbia & Montenegro - 6 each Bosnia-Herzegovina, Ghana, Greece, Portugal, Sweden, Turkey - 5 each 43 other countries represnted German 2.Bundesliga: Germany - 283 (63.2%) Brazil - 13 (2.9%) Czech Republic, Poland - 10 each (2.2% each) Croatia, Serbia & Montenegro - 9 each Bosnia-Herzegovina, Turkey - 7 each Albania, Bulgaria - 6 each Nigeria, Senegal, USA - 5 each 34 other countries represented Dutch Eredivisie: Netherlands - 261 (63.2%) Belgium - 25 (6.1%) Brazil - 12 (2.9%) Serbia & Montenegro - 10 (2.4%) Morocco - 9 Denmark, Finland - 8 each Sweden - 7 Ghana - 5 37 other countries represented Scottish Premier League: Scotland - 228 (67.1%) England - 15 (4.4%) France - 14 (4.1%) Northern Ireland - 8 (2.4%) Netherlands, Spain - 7 each Argentina, Ireland - 6 each Australia - 5 Canada, Denmark, Trinidad & Tobago, Sweden - 4 each 21 other countries represented J-League: Japan - 434 (89.9%) Brazil - 33 (6.8%) South Korea - 5 (1.0%) 9 other countries represented Liga Mexicana de Fútbol: Mexico - 417 (79.6%) Argentina - 38 (7.3%) Brazil - 16 (3.1%) Uruguay - 14 (2.7%) Chile - 11 Colombia - 9 Paraguay - 6 7 other countries represented French Ligue 1: France - 347 (65.5%) Senegal - 19 (3.6%) - many Senegalese players left after WC2002 Brazil - 17 (3.2%) Argentina, Cote d'Ivoire - 12 each (2.3% each) Cameroon - 10 Algeria, Morocco - 9 each Serbia & Montenegro - 8 Portugal - 7 Czech Republic, Mali, Switzerland - 6 each 33 other countries represented French Ligue 2: France - 391 (82.7%) Senegal - 12 (2.5%) Cote d'Ivoire - 9 (1.9%) Cameroon - 8 (1.7%) Mali - 7 Argentina, Brazil, DR Congo, Guinea - 5 each 17 other countries represented Belgian Jupiler League: Belgium - 253 (56.0%) Cote d'Ivoire - 18 (4.0%)* France, Serbia & Montenegro - 15 each (3.3% each) Nigeria - 10 Guinea - 9 Croatia - 8 Brazil, Burkina Faso - 7 each Cameroon, South Africa - 6 each Norway - 5 44 other countries represented *Note: the majority of KSK Beveren's squad was from Cote d'Ivoire, and their regular starting lineup included 9 of ASEC Abidjan's 2001 starters! IIRC, there were only 2 or 3 Ivorian players in Belgium who didn't play for Beveren. Danish Superliga: Denmark - 238 (83.2%) Sweden - 10 (3.5%) Norway - 5 (1.7%) Ghana, South Africa - 3 each 19 other countries represented Chinese Jia A: China - 411 (89.2%) Brazil - 17 (3.7%) Serbia & Montenegro - 4 (0.9%) 19 other countries represented Portuguese Super Liga: Portugal - 281 (60.6%) Brazil - 99 (21.3%) Angola - 12 (2.6%) France - 10 (2.2%) Argentina, Spain - 5 each 32 other countries represented Greek A Ethniki Katigoria: Greece - 355 (77.2%) Poland, Serbia & Montenegro - 10 each (2.2% each) Argentina - 9 (2.0%) Cyprus - 6 Albania, Brazil, Bulgaria - 5 each 26 other countries represented Swedish Allsvenskan: Sweden - 260 (82.5%) Brazil, Finland, Norway - 7 each (2.2% each) Denmark - 4 21 other countries represented Norwegian Tippeligaen: Norway - 250 (80.4%) Sweden - 17 (5.5%) Iceland - 12 (3.9%) Finland - 7 (2.3%) 19 other countries represented Russian Premier League: Russia - 390 (67.5%) Ukraine - 33 (5.7%) Brazil - 21 (3.6%) Serbia & Montenegro - 17 (2.9%) Belarus - 12 Lithuania - 11 Czech Republic, Georgia - 10 each Uzbekistan - 8 Moldova, South Africa - 6 each 23 other countries represented Swiss Nationalliga A: Switzerland - 143 (65.3%) Italy - 10 (4.6%) Brazil - 9 (4.1%) Argentina - 8 (3.7%) Cameroon - 6 Australia, Portugal - 4 each Bosnia-Herzegovina, Senegal, Serbia & Montenegro, Togo - 3 each 18 other countries represented Turkish Süper Lig: Turkey - 368 (80.2%) Brazil - 17 (3.7%) Romania - 9 (2.0%) Slovakia - 7 (1.5%) Belgium, Bulgaria - 5 each 26 other countries represented Austrian Bundesliga: Austria - 142 (60.4%) Poland - 10 (4.3%) Croatia - 9 (3.8%) Belgium, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Germany, Hungary, Serbia & Montenegro - 6 each Norway, Turkey - 5 each Slovakia - 4 Czech Republic - 3 23 other countries represented Irish Eircom League: Ireland - 173 (85.2%) Northern Ireland - 10 (4.9%) England - 9 (4.4%) Scotland - 4 (2.0%) 6 other countries represented Israeli Ligat ha-Al: Israel - 237 (82.2%) Croatia - 9 (3.1%) Brazil - 7 (2.4%) Ghana - 5 (1.7%) Nigeria - 4 Paraguay, Poland, Russia - 3 each 14 other countries represented Serbia & Montenegro 1st division: Serbia & Montenegro - 456 (96.0%) Macedonia - 7 (1.5%) 6 other countries represented Czech 1. Gambrinus Liga Czech Republic - 331 (86.6%) Slovakia - 34 (8.9%) Brazil - 4 (1.0%) 10 other countries represented Polish Ekstraklasa Poland - 298 (88.4%) Nigeria - 6 (1.8%) Brazil - 5 (1.5%) Lithuania - 4 (1.2%) 16 other countries represented Tunisian 1st division: Tunisia - 235 (87.6%) Senegal - 8 (3.0%) Brazil - 5 (1.9%) Nigeria - 4 (1.5%) Cote d'Ivoire, Guinea - 3 each 8 other countries represented Argentine 1st division: Argentina - 568 (92.7%) Colombia - 13 (2.1%) Paraguay - 11 (1.8%) Uruguay - 8 (1.3%) Chile - 6 5 other countries represented Indian National Football League: India - 284 (86.1%) Nigeria - 19 (5.8%) Brazil - 10 (3.0%) Ghana - 7 (2.1%) Sri Lanka - 5 5 other countries represented Trinidad & Tobago Pro League: Trinidad & Tobago - 305 (91.6%) Brazil, Guyana, St. Lucia - 5 each (1.6% each) St. Kitts & Nevis - 4 7 other countries represented