we are just going to have to agree to disagree.. I just think that when you wear a national team jersey, it's a form of comittment and there are responsibilities and loyalties that go along with such. It's a two way street: the player is agreeing to comitt to the country's football program, and the country's footballing assocation is trusting the player with the responsibility to help the team (or youth team) in an official and serious competition. If a player doesn't want to handle the responsibilities of NT or YNT play, they can always refuse a callup. Now the rules are good because they don't force players under 21 to fully commit (unless they play for the senior team in an official competition) and give them a limited way out. But the rules still attach some responsibilities to youth national team participation and I like that. I think most fans of their country's Youth National Teams, including myself, like the fact that the players have made some sort of comittment (even if slightly limited) to the country's football program. By the way, this has turned into a great thread and a very interesting debate.
I am having a hard time understanding two things in this thread: 1) why those sympathetic to Alvarez would hope that Fifa would bend the rules (as if a similar set of facts has not ever existed in the soccer realm (I have to believe it has)) and 2) why everyone is so sympathetic to Alvarez to begin with? Let me back up and say that I like him and hope that he continues to remain in the "larger" picture/pool for the US. Having said that, why should I feel sorry for him over a guy who wasnt "blessed" with dual citizenship and just isn't quite good enough to be in the ongoing plans for the USMNT [ like, a Seth Stammler or say, a cusp guy like Eddie Robinson...there are myriad examples]. There are just some guys who aren't good enough. He is 23 and has been a pro athlete since for 5-6 years and a dual national presumably his whole life. He should've been aware of his situation. I find it silly that he now would cluelessly make such an announcement without grasping the reality of his circumstances. For whatever reason, I am not that sympathetic. I think Shredder has clearly laid out the FIFA regs and application and I don't see why this has been characterized as such an unfortunate situation.
absolutely, and I agree with all of that. but even beyond that, why is that "some sort of commitment" (made by a youth player) being made into a permanent commitment, even in the case where that NT is never fully committed to the player? I can understand why people are fine with the rules and regulations as they are from Fifa, but I can also understand the argument that Fifa can and should perhaps allow Alvarez to play for (and fully commit to) El Salvador at this point. It is a very strange and rather unique case (I believe, and it is made stranger by the fact that I believe Alvarez has been called to NT camps but has just never gotten a full US cap). I do think it might be a case that Fifa potentially rule favorably on for Alvarez and El Salvador. but again, Fifa could stick to the letter of the law and not want to get into exceptions to their regulations here.
but if he's good enough for El Salvador (or if Dooley or Regis were good enough for the US while not good enough for their birth nations), why shouldn't those options (via ancestry or marriage) be made available to the player? I'm just not sure that YNT caps should fully cap-tie a multi-national player to one nation, especially when that senior team doesn't end up capping that player (after several years). but then again, if Alvarez is prohibited by Fifa from representing El Salvador, he could still improve and/or work his way to earn US caps and become a full member of this team. no, it's not likely that he'd go to WC2010 or WC2014 with the US, but if it's completely unlikely, I have no problem with him trying to earn that with El Salvador.
not so much exceptions, but ways around the regulations, or ways to work within the regulations for a different/unexpected result. The Chris Armas example perhaps is a case where they re-interpreted their rules, didn't they? or they allowed for the Caribbean Cup to be defined as a group of friendlies to the benefit of Armas and the US. now, this isn't exactly the same, given that Alvarez and El Salvador and the US all knew that the U20 qualifiers were an official YNT event. but, they could (in theory, although completely unlikely it would seem) re-define the U20 qualifiers (that Alvarez appeared in) as non-official matches. yes, that's not likely, but it's not like ways can't be found around regulations. but then again, it likely isn't in Fifa's interest to look for or agree with some of those work-arounds. sure, Fifa has a history and an image to hold up, but I just never like to say never. I personally would have no problem if Fifa re-defined or re-interpreted the regulations to say that U20 final tournaments (and not U20 qualification matches) are the official event, and a player can not be capped tied after their 21st birthday only via YNT appearances in U20 qualifying matches. the guy played (rather sparingly) in two of three qualifying matches, and then didn't go with the U20s to that YWC, and he's yet to earn a full NT cap. I don't know how that argument would hold up with Fifa, but I'd have no problem with him being able to play for and commit to El Salvador now.
In all fairness to tab5g... while FIFA doesn't make exceptions to the cap tying rules, they have changed the rules a bunch of times. Diego Gutiérrez played for Columbia at the youth level officially in 1989 and became an American citizen in 2000 and received a US cap. This was done under an old set of rules (remember when official A friendlies would cap tie a player?). Under the current rules, he wouldn't have been able to play for the US. FIFA doesn't allow for exceptions under the current rule.. and I like that a lot. But you never know if FIFA will change their rules because they do that quite a bit (not just cap-tying rules. But I hope they don't change the rules because I think they are good, and fair the way they are now. At the same time, I think they really like these rules and are satisfied with them after many years of tweaking... I very much doubt they will change them. The Caribbean Cup when it was initially organized and planned, wasn't an official competition. There is no federation known as the "Caribbean." It would be like a "North African" championship... official competitions are either FIFA events or among the officially recognized federations (CONCACAF, UEFA, CONMEBOL, etc)
I think this is a good move by Arturo because he has no chance at being apart of the US midfield which is our strongest position right now
fair enough. and I'll still stand by my comments I made earlier, and I'll leave it at that: right, the Diego Gutiérrez example might be more useful here than the Chris Armas example. but those were different times, and a different set of rules were in place, as you noted. and the more I think about it, you're probably right, that Fifa won't change their rules. but then again, I wouldn't be surprised if they did.
It would be nice to tweak the rule just a bit to allow the first Federation to grant a release to a player to switch in a case like this. It'd be win-win all around...Arturo gets to play international football, the Sallies get a player that can help them, and the USSF shows it has the best interests of the player at heart.
absolutely. but then again, that option may open the door to bribery and money being exchanged between Federation B and Federation A. I'm guessing Fifa would rather see that money being paid directly from Federation B to Fifa.
That's a nice thought, but it won't work. Could you imagine if we "release" Alvarez to play for El Salvador the day after we defeat them in the Hex. Just so it makes them tougher to beat for everyone else? That and the bribary issues mentioned above won't work. Countries can just sell players... that's a path we don't want to go down knowing how corrupt football can be at times.
Possibly...but how many cases like this do you have? Maybe a lot, I don't know. Put in a provision that they can't have played for the senior side (or even less than 5 caps, if you want), or even something limiting the number of times a federation can pick up (for want of a better term) a player in this manner...say, once in a World Cup cycle...and that should eliminate most of the skullduggery. EDIT: seeing bshredders comment, you could even have a transfer window that closed once a qualifying round started. It could be worked out. Would the world really come to an end if some former Brazilian youth player ended up playing for San Marino?
Just as a public service announcement.. in case you don't want to wade through the last several pages of this very entertaining but hypotheical discussion.. I will bring you up to speed. Unless FIFA drastically changes their cap-tying rules in a way that is more favorable towards letting players switch countries (and I am 99.9999% sure they won't change the rules), Alvarez will NOT be playing for El Salvador I really think a moderator needs to change the thread title because it's not true. He is not going to play for El Salvador. The title should be changed to something along the lines of "Arturo Alvarez wants to play for El Salvador. FIFA rules prevent such a switch"
As far as I know, 'A' friendlies have never cap-tied a player... certainly not in the last twenty years. I'm fairly certain Gutiérrez was an oversight, someone we used when we still didn't realize that he was tied to Colombia.
And his only US cap was in a friendly. The USSF never got ironclad assurance they could use him, so they never risked it in an official match.
yeah, mod, step in and change the title and put an end to this hypothetical discussion -- or at least the apparently incorrect thread title at this point. going back to the idea of Federations granting releases to multi-national players who don't have senior caps: in this case, it seems that Federation A did in a round-about way already "grant a release" of the player, buy not awarding senior NT caps at all over a course of several years, a full cycle. very few players would be allowed to take advantage of these type of releases from YNT cap-tied situations, but I think it would indeed be in everyone's best interest if Federation A isn't using the player on the senior level.
That's how I've understood it. First off, as long as I've been following soccer, friendlies, independent of themselves, haven't cap-tied. Remember Martin Vasquez played friendlies for Mexico in the early 90s and ended up playing for the US - including in qualifiers against Mexico. Second, Gutierrez played for Colombia at the U17 level in FIFA-sanctioned matches. (I forget whether it was qualifying or the U17 WC or both.) The US thought he'd been on the roster but hadn't actually played in FIFA-sanctioned games. They let him play in a friendly against South Korea in late 2001 - technically a FIFA no-no but no one made a big deal of it because it was a friendly - and then realized - or were told - that he was cap-tied to Colombia and he never got called up by the US again. Gutierrez' situation is similar to Alvarez in that he was cap-tied at a young level to a country that showed little to no interest in capping him at the senior level. But, he was in fact, cap-tied and couldn't play for the US just as Alvarez is, in fact, cap-tied to the US.
Article 18 Change of Association 'If a Player has more than one nationality, or if a Player acquires a new nationality, or if a Player iseligible to play for several representative teams due to nationality, he may, up to his 21st birthday,and only once, request to change the Association for which he is eligible to play international matches to the Association of another country of which he holds nationality, subject to thefollowing conditions (a) He has not played a match (either in full or in part) in an official competition at °A"international level for his current Association, and at the time of his first full or partial appearance in an international match in an official competition for his current Association, healready had the nationality of the representative team for which he wishes to play. The fact that Arturo's parents are Salvadorian that gives him the double nationality. Arturo played with the US U20, that means he has under 21 when he played for the US. That makes him eligle to play for El Salvador. Some people misunderstand the 21st b-day rule. What it means is that he may play up to the age 21 with his current association.(that will be the US.), and can request a change of association to his second nationality (El Salvador in this case). But if he had played for the "A" team meaning the U23 or senior team when he was 18, that will automatically make him not eligible to play for El Salvador. In this case Artie played with the U.S (U20) when he was 18 or 19. So definitely he is eligible to play for El Salvador.
It looks to me like it clearly says he has up until his 21st birthday to make the request, not that he can request whenever he feels like it as long as he doesn't play for the original fed after he turns 21. It seems clear to me that the rules say Alvarez is cap-tied. But FIFA being FIFA, who knows. If we continue to show no interest in him, I'd just as soon he play for El Salvador. But I don't think the U.S. has any actual standing to allow or block such a move.
No.. that's not how the rules are at all.. All players play for U20 teams when they 18 or 19... with what you are saying, U20 games wouldn't have any consequence because by their very nature, all players are under 21 The rules are clear, they have to switch before they turn 21 It's how Rossi became cap tied to Italy on his 21st birthday.. at that point he hadn't played for the Italian senior team.. just for Italian youth teams in UEFA events FIFA is actually very clear, consistent, and strict about this.. (even the powerful and influential German federation couldn't land Subotic because of the rules).
obviosuly. Alvarez is an inconsistent player in MLS. Subotic is an established player in Bundesliga who lied to us. It's not being fickle.
I find Arturo to be a very talented player who could help ES signficantly on their National Team. While inconsistent, he's capable of some magic at a moment's notice and I imagine playing for ES he'd be less inconsisent than we ususally find him in MLS. I'll leave it to the experts (you guys) as to whether he can actually make such a move.
Too bad there is not a process where the US could release him. Maybe FIFA will allow that someday for players who were cap-tied in youth level matches.