I would imagine that you would have to take distance and frequency of games into consideration. Getting around this great country is neither easy nor inexpensive. Keeping people pumped up and active for infrequent games can't be easy either. Having a DC Chapter of SA and really getting down to it once the games are announced is the best way to fill a supporter section.
That is understandable, they really can't compete. There are several US games a year, across vast distances. You have a group that sees each other at the game few times a year and you have groups that see each other several times a month following their club. My money is on second type to be leaps and bounds ahead in any sort of organization. Tho you bring up a good point of people without clubs that just follow national team, that's very unique to US
You bring up really good points here, Chico. My only disagreement is that I wouldn't want to put in one drop of effort on "SA" as it is right now. I want us to be us - SE and BB - coming together for US games and inviting other US fans to join us for the day.
Which is the right way to do it. I tried to set up an organzation that met everyone's needs but here are the challenges to do it nationally: 1. Distance between games. Very few people make it to more than 1-2 games a year, except during WCQ, but even the number of people who attend the majority of them is fairly small. Most supporter sections are small, and the number of people willing to contribute to the atmosphere even smaller. 2. The general disorganization of most MLS supporter clubs. Our three clubs are MILES ahead of most other supporter clubs in terms of infrastructure -- i.e. the ability to handle ticket sales, etc. And if a match is held outside of an MLS stadium, like say, Birmingham, it's impossible. 3. Delegation of power. Everyone wants to do things their way, which is fair because they're doing all the work. But this means it's hard to establish traditions like sitting behind the goal (many SEs refuse to do that, for example) or singing certain songs (you would *not* believe how many complaints I got from people for God Bless America because it's too nationalistic or they get hives whenever someone mentions religion. I'll leave to your imagination what I did to them.) Failure to agree to a common set of standards leads to disorganzation and breakdowns in communication. 4. Club vs. Country conflicts. These are too numerous to recount, and they've happened at every match in an MLS stadium: Crew fans singing V-Army songs, La Norte singing anti-Metro songs at the Panama match, and I could go on. I've seen Chicago fans and Columbus fans nearly get into it at a match. 5. A general division between fans. Broadly speaking, there are two groups of "supporters": A group that really want to sing, throw confetti, smoke bombs, and all the other theatrics we associate with soccer, and a group that wants to be more of a booster club type. These people can get VERY hostile to the idea of general admission or people cursing. 6. The USSF is not at all welcoming of the idea of an organized fan group. I've had private conversations with USSF officials who basically tolerate us, but really don't want to deal with us. Remember, for their perspective, we cause security headaches, introduce a non-family-friendly element into matches and generally make life unpleasant for a bunch of youth-soccer bureaucrats. Andy Mead may be right, the only way to really do this is to have a professionally run organization, but then who wants to pay for that? You'll never get 10,000 fans to cough up $10 apiece, which is what it would cost to run an organization like that. Sachin
Here's the sad part about this: Entirely true. It's basically what has soured me on ever going to a national team game again in this country when it's not in my backyard. In my opinion, sometime after US-Costa Rica in Portland, OR (1997) the whole deal went to hell in a hand basket. All the reasons Sachin mentions are the ones. We had that nice game in DC against Guatemala, but we all know that the lawsuits from the seating control were a serious headache (especially after Honduras). What I hope for some day is that DC United has a nice stadium of about 25,000 with mostly all season ticket holders. Then the National team can come in to that atmosphere and, well, that's that. Same in Chicago and maybe NJ someday. Beyond that, well, it will be decades before the culture of the USSF stops sucking at the tit of youth soccer. Cheers, Tim
I do want to say this: The USSF is the least of our problems, in retrospect. If we were able to organize a turnout of 1,000 people per match, the USSF would listen to us. The most important problems are endemic to the fanbase, not the USSF. Sachin
When your supporter scene is in infancy then problems with entities like USSF are much more exegerated. Croatian football federation or Dinamo FO are much more antagonistic and corrupt but supporter groups are so organized by now it doesn't really matter, they have to listen.
Sachin, you know how much I wanted the La Norte DC effort to get national team support going. Don't you think we already have 1000 people in the supporters' section for big games? I know you can quibble endlessly about this, but since 2000 lots of games, and just about all the big qualifiers, had at least 1000 behind the goal. My old Sam's Army card number is 1523 or something like that. We can get 1000 or 2000 in the section. We can't get USSF support, or at least enthusiastic support. I know there are other problems. By the way, a second congratulations on the marriage. I looked at the photos on your site and saw you on TV at a DC game about 5 weeks ago, maybe 3 weeks after the wedding. It is a good wife who will let her husband go off to a football match so soon after the wedding! Just my opinions!
I've never seen 2000 people. At RFK for example, it would basically be 9 La Nortes. (La Norte has just over 200 seats in Section 120). The Honduras match in RFK probably had 1000 people along the sidelines. La Guerra Fria had about 300-400, IIRC. Foxboro had something along the line of 500-600 people. Crowds for this cycle have been noticably smaller, something you have alluded to before as well. Granted, we've had few home weekend matches this time. And of those crowds, I would guess 50% are willing to sing all the time with 75% willing to sing most of the time. The rest just make weight. Believe me, we need to establish a consisent presence at every match, which is impossible given the large number of them we play at home. Then we can go to the USSF with a fait accompli. But I'm not going to fight this fight anymore. I'll give advice to anyone who wants it, however. Thanks again. I'm surprised you didn't see my wife next to me, muttering about how DC needs to play early crosses into space from the 40 yard mark rather than along the goal line. Sachin
As I am rapidly learning with my woman. Its better that she critiques the team's performance then yours
This, to me, was the worst part of the effort you worked so hard on and completely not your fault. You were very adamant that it was not anti-SA. It was a different group with a specific goal. And the first thing I heard on the march down was "******** SA. ******** all those **************" and it didn't let up. The straw for me was when someone stood up and yelled "Sing you mother********ers or I'll kick your ass out of this section." I saw two guys who I know travel a lot shake their heads and leave the section. I don't know the answer to how to make something work, but I know that making it into a contest of who supports the team best is definitely not the answer. And I don't know if a lot of fans in this country are past that point yet.
Bascially, we need to be to establish two sections, one for the singers and one for those that don't want to but still go to all the games. My point always has been that those who travel for every match are probably more dedicated fans than those that make a few every year but sing their heart out. But again, that all comes down to numbers, and we don't have those yet. Sachin
Let me first start out by saying that as a DC fan and USMNT fan I appreciate all everyone does. Remember, volunteerism in the US is at an all-time low. One of the main problems we've had as USMNT supporters is they put the matches all over the country. There really is no way to know in advance where the games are going to be until the announcement. Granted, that makes the BS USMNT boards fun for BS reasons why posters think it will be in stadium X, but that's just me. If I were involved (and I'm not!) I would suggest a regional approach to Sam's Army. Geographically, each MLS or lower division team supporters club would take a geographic area. Whenever the USMNT plays in RFK or, heaven forbid, JKC, then the DCU USMNT Supporters Club would be responsible for getting and distributing tickets, managing a hotels/bars/tailgate website, and generally running things. Individuals from other areas could come directly to the DC Sams Army, or better yet, go through their local Sam's Army. This way, the regional office would only have to work hard every once in a while when the game is in their back yard. Otherwise, they just have a skeleton staff that acts as a pass-through to the regional office where the game is taking place. Oh, screw it. I can't even get people in the stadium before kick-off
I agree with Sachin that the numbers are down this time. I believe Sam's Army announced 1100 tickets were sold for the Costa Rica game in Columbus and 1400 for La Guerra Fria. People were really packed in for the Mexico game. But that was then and this is now. Whatever the numbers were in 2001 we aren't hitting them any more. I can't blame Sachin for fighting the good fight and leaving it for someone else. Many others have reached the same conclusion. Organized fan support is not going to go away but we may have seen our high water mark for some time to come.
Not exactly on topic, but needs to be pointed out: I'm probably the last person you'd expect to hear this from. I'm not exactly a stickler for rules EXCEPT when it comes to stuff like respect for the flag. There are a lot more rules about the proper display, handling and treatment of the U.S. flag than there are about any other country's flag. Most importantly, there's this one:
I'm pretty sure we have same rules about Croatian flag and we might be bit more nationalistic on average hehe Different people, different opinions of course, and it's not like there's no alternative. US flag is world's worst design to write on anyways, you wouldn't want to write for it even if it was common practice. It just comes down to how much effort people want to spend. My Maryland banner for Croatian games isn't going to be on Croatian flag either, just cos most people do that.
I think my version is "sing motherfvckers, this is not Kansas City" But as Puck said noone gets mad at people with accent Seriously if you just stand whole match how's that different than sitting. Sitting seems way more comfortable too Standing by itself really doesn't support anything, unless you're telling players you sympathize with them having to be on their feet whole match. Once again it shows advantage of organized groups that have ways already set. If you go to DC match you know exactly what to expect in 134 and 135, you'll try to sing as much as possible (it's hard work singing for 90 mins tho lol), then you have 133 and 136 where it's much more relaxed (unless it's a big game), then you have 132 and 137 where people that are in group but sit down and watch game, etc Hopefully in several years we can double size of each of those areas. Erm my point was that it would suck if you mix all those styles together, I guess then you have SA thing.
This whole "I'm a better fan than you" business really gets my goat. Honestly, can you tell me I'm not a good US fan because I have back problems that keep me from buying seats in the supporters' sections. I broke down and did buy supporters' section tickets for the US-CR game this cycle, but a week before game time, I could barely even sit up. I stood in the front for the game so I could lean on the rail to ease the pressure. That's why I purchase tickets for places where I can sit during the game. My husband does not like being in the supporters' sections. Yet he's still caught the fever and looks forward to US games. He'll be traveling to the Mexico game this year (assuming we get tickets). Are we any less US fans? These discussions are just nuts. If I'm a US fan buying tickets to watch my team, cheering against the opponents, showing my flag at the stadium, I don't think I should be criticized because I don't do things the way others think I should.
That's a good point. There's a bit of the "I'm a better fan, because I stand and sing" in the supporter culture. That's another bad habit we need to break. Just because you don't stand and sing doesn't make you any less of a fan. However, that said, if you want to be part of the supporters section but not sing, please move to the edge of it. Sachin
Obviously if an individual decides to mark up a flag, what can you do. However an organized group can set some rules on what is acceptable in their sections and let the membership and their guests know. In this case, as some might be offended to see writing on a flag, it's in the best interest of the club to not have these items in and around their sections (or be prepared to hear about it later). As to Nancy's point, the current SA model doesn't really address those who want to be a member of an org that supports US soccer but don't necessarily want to be in the supporters section. There are no current benefits of being a SA member (like in the SEs for example you can sit wherever and still get discounts on travel, tailgates, go to parties, etc.) There was supposed to be some huge SA relaunch soon, has that ever happened (like will it happen before we get our scarves from Liam? The race is on! ) K
you just don't have different words in American English to describe different types of fans and few that there are are used interchangably (as in people take word supporter by literal meaning). Then again all semantics are meaningless until there's 300 flags in stadium
I'll expand upon this, cause it's a good argument. True that just because you don't stand and sing doesn't make you any less of fan. The thing to remember, however, is that it makes you a different type of fan. If you're gonna try to build two distinct groups within one large group (which isn't that large to begin with) then i wish you the best of luck. Sing&stand, or get out. Stop analyzing the "I'm a better fan than you" theory and exploit it. Think of it as a friendly competition...who can be the most passionate? Further, yuppies do not make very good ultras unless you're a yuppy who says he's not one. ciao
I think part of the problem with Sam's Army as it currently exists (if it truly does) is that it is too centralized and attempts to be too monolithic. The solution, I think, is for the local groups to step up and independently generate support for the national team just as they do for their clubs. While I fear that this could promote a "club over country" atmosphere, it will also be more effective than having the whole thing organized from top-down for the entire country by a handful of people who are themselves spread out all over the country. Nothing against any of the people who lead Sam's Army, since they all do an excellent job--I just think there's a better way. If there's a game in Foxboro, Revs fans should take the lead in organizing. If it's in RFK, DC fans should do the same. If it's in Portland, Timbers fans should take the lead. I see national support based on an alliance of local groups--not even neccesarily based on clubs, a city with no club teams at any level like Philly or Birmingham could also certainly represent--all coming together for the common cause. I'm probably going to be able to make the Quakes-DCU game on Friday so maybe we can discuss this further then, as long as you don't mind discussing it with someone in blue