Whose fault, empire? Our fault. Thus, focus upon what we can control.

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by Mel Brennan, Nov 30, 2004.

  1. Mel Brennan

    Mel Brennan PLANITARCHIS' BANE

    Paris Saint Germain
    United States
    Apr 8, 2002
    Baltimore
    Club:
    Paris Saint Germain FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What We Can Control
    by Kathy Kelly (the co-coordinator of Voices in the Wilderness (www.vitw.org). She has refused to pay all forms of federal income tax since 1980. See www.nwtrcc.org for more information about war tax refusal.)

    In the past year, several groups have asked me to facilitate retreats for people who want to further explore nonviolence. At the retreats, I ask volunteers to role-play situations likely to generate discussion about challenges people face when involved in peace activism. One of the most reliably difficult scenarios stages a spouse raising with his or her partner a decision to become a war tax refuser and stop paying federal income tax.

    In one such scene, an anguished husband implored his wife to understand his reasons for stopping payment of federal income tax. "How could you do this to our children?" she asked. "And why didn't you think of this before you became a father?" The husband responded, "Honey, I just want to do something for peace," to which the wife blurted out, "At Christmas?!" The room filled with laughter. Cut! Point well taken.

    Last night, after spending Thanksgiving Day with family, my mother and I groaned over TV news clips that anticipated today's shopping binge. Many progressives refuse to participate in the orgy of shopping that accompanies the Christmas season. But what about the appropriations for weaponry that are so hard to eliminate from our personal budgets?

    I return in memory to a real life scene that happened not far from the birthplace of Jesus. In April of 2002, Jeff Guntzel and I were part of a small team that had entered the Jenin Camp, in Palestine, during the Israeli Defense Force's "Operation Enduring Storm..."

    ...picking our way over more ruined homes, while very brave Palestinian men and boys, wearing flimsy surgical masks, retrieved corpses from the rubble, we were approached by three furious mothers who saw us scribbling notes in our spiral pads. "Put this in your notebook," shouted one enraged woman. "It is your country that we hold responsible!" She jabbed my notebook. "Write this! Your country!" Taken aback, I blurted out, "I don't pay my taxes." I was desperate not to be responsible.

    Who then is responsible? Of course I'm responsible. I live well in the country that, during the 37-year armed Israeli occupation of Palestine, has given over $100 billion dollars to Israel, mostly for its military. US lawmakers have directed the productivity of US people into a $524 billion budget for US military and security in 2005. When I return to the US after spending a few weeks or months in a war-torn, shattered area of the world, how long does it take for me to adjust to electricity, clean water, phones, computers, plenty of food and easy transport? About eight seconds.

    There's no way to run or hide from the truth of the US people's responsibility for reckless warfare, military and economic, in numerous parts of the world. Nor can we hide from the truth about who pays to prepare for future wars. In next year's defense budget, $177 billion is earmarked for weapon systems that won't be available until two generations from now...

    ...Politically, progressives were defeated by a majority of Democrat voters even before the majority of American voters ratified imperialism...

    ...We're not listened to by our government, nor, in sufficient numbers, the American people. From most of us, what is required is not our bodies and not our consent - it's our money. This is what we have power over.

    We can appropriate money away from militarism to health care, housing and other needs by our resistance, by our nonpayment of taxes for war. As civilian and military casualties mount, as US foreign policy creates terrorists faster than we can kill them, progressives opposed to warmaking simply can't deny a moral imperative: don't turn your productivity over to the warmakers.

    Our refusal here in the US can be undertaken at no great risk. We're not talking Germany 1939. More relevantly, we're not talking El Salvador 1980-present. By any measure that takes in the lives of our war-victims and the risks they face, it is no great risk.

    Karl Meyer, a pacifist guide for numerous war tax refusers, a man who hasn't paid his taxes since 1960, takes a harder line than I do, but without his perspective I never would have been drawn into allowing the IRS to become my spiritual director. Here are Karl's words: "If progressives fail to resist militarism or refuse participation in it through the one form of participation that is demanded, that is to pay taxes, they should give up their pretensions to being in opposition..."


    ....................

    Discuss. In particular, who here, if anyone, knows about the process of paying taxes in a way where the killing machine does not get my money? I don't plan on being back under the US tax thumb for years, i f ever, but if and when I DO come back I'd like more knowledge about how to do that. I'll be checking out the website Kelly directs people to (above), but if anyone has personal knowledge or experience of war tax refusal, I'd like to read it.
     
  2. Caesar

    Caesar Moderator
    Staff Member

    Mar 3, 2004
    Oztraya
    Yes. It's called tax evasion. Seriously, you don't get to choose because all income taxes go into a general pool - either you don't pay/partial pay (illegal) or you pay and your money is used as the government sees fit.

    People like this lady really tick me off. Citizens have rights and responsibilities - the responsibility to pay tax is balanced by the right to vote for a government who will decide how to use those taxes. No taxation without representation? These people just want two bites at the cherry.
     
  3. Dr Jay

    Dr Jay BigSoccer Supporter

    Aug 7, 1999
    Newton, MA USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There are bad people in the world. People you can't reason with. People who will shoot you through the mouth if you turn the other cheek. Some of these people are actually in power and therefore have the ability to hurt many innocent people.

    Until Bin Laden adopts non-violence, I vote that we don't.
     
  4. Dammit!

    Dammit! Member

    Apr 14, 2004
    Mickey Mouse Land
    Here's how you do it:

    Move to another country,

    then send your money back here to charitable orgnaizations.

    Please, go. There's too many people waiting in line to be citizens for you

    to be taking up a spot.
     
  5. Mel Brennan

    Mel Brennan PLANITARCHIS' BANE

    Paris Saint Germain
    United States
    Apr 8, 2002
    Baltimore
    Club:
    Paris Saint Germain FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    Well, I've done that. That's not the issue. The issue is if I believe in fully-funded public education and and fully-funded health care and fully funded social services before an overly-funded military-industrial complex, why should I fail to advocate for a separation and democratization of taxation separate from representation? To be mroe specific, why in fact, in a democracy, should my tax preferences be tied directly and solely to my representative, and to YOUR representative?

    I'm writing a work of fiction where one of the early protaganists launches a grassroots initiative for L.I.T.E. - Line Item Taxation Expression. It's a taxation system where, having calculated the amount of tax to be paid, ad having had established by representatives the BARE MINIMUM PERCENTAGES each section of each department of government needs to function, a 50/50 breakdown of my taxes is assumed, where, among the first 50%, the bare minimum precentages are taken. The second 50% is entirely discretionary, where each taxpayer can fund more fully aspects of government they see fit. Thus, if, after meanginful and sustained debate, it is established that for the 2004 tax year the bare minimum percentage for the Department of Defense is established at 10%, if I choose to giv, out of that second 50% of my total taxes, an additional 2%, or 16% or 50%, I can choose to do so. If I choose to give only the bare minimum, and give the rest of my percetnage to education, health care and social services, then so be it as well.

    L.I.T.E. - How about that as a proposal? Or are folks wholly committed, in the light of past performance, to the idea of committing all our trust and confidence to our representatives?
     
  6. Attacking Minded

    Attacking Minded New Member

    Jun 22, 2002
    We had a war over that about 140 years ago. People that refused to cooperate with the majority were killed until they gave up. Citizens can't cherry pick the parts of government they like. The majority has the might to put them in jail or even kill them, if they like. Sorry Mel, but we are all in this life together.
     
  7. Mel Brennan

    Mel Brennan PLANITARCHIS' BANE

    Paris Saint Germain
    United States
    Apr 8, 2002
    Baltimore
    Club:
    Paris Saint Germain FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Your disparagement notwithstanding (calling the right and rgiteous fight for continuing expansion of the Constitutional franchise "cherry picking"), are you a landed white Male with appropriate heredity? If not, what do you think you'd be doing were it not for folks railing against the parts of the government they did not like?

    Stop. Spouting. Foolishness.
     
  8. bojendyk

    bojendyk New Member

    Jan 4, 2002
    South Loop, Chicago
    Does someone really need to point out that, if we could cherry pick which taxes we paid, a huge segment of the population would refuse to pay for welfare programs, section 8 subsidies, WIC, etc.?
     
  9. Attacking Minded

    Attacking Minded New Member

    Jun 22, 2002
    What if someone wanted to only honor the civil rights they liked? What would you think about that?
     
  10. Mel Brennan

    Mel Brennan PLANITARCHIS' BANE

    Paris Saint Germain
    United States
    Apr 8, 2002
    Baltimore
    Club:
    Paris Saint Germain FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Answer my question.
     
  11. Mel Brennan

    Mel Brennan PLANITARCHIS' BANE

    Paris Saint Germain
    United States
    Apr 8, 2002
    Baltimore
    Club:
    Paris Saint Germain FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    L.I.T.E., the concept I alluded to, talks about bare minimums, and about the fact that taxation amount wouldn't change, just provide a discretion with half of it. Under that scheme, the debate would be around what constitutes a bare minimum, and, if gov't departments REALLY wanted our discretionary funds, a level of transprency heretofore not really seen. Would that transparency result in more work for ad agencies? Probably; there'd need to be a strengthening of truth--and-clarity-in-advertising laws and legislation like that, but I think that any active citizen would prefer that federal government take their bare minimums from half the $1 trillion per annum in the General Fund, and allow citizens to decide how to spend the other $500 billion.

    Maybe not. Who knows? An approach like L.I.T.E. is my bare minimum though.
     
  12. Zamphyr

    Zamphyr Member

    Mar 31, 2003
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Mel, I believe we already have a political party advocating bare minimums...are you a Libertarian ?

    Bare minimums implies no welfare, public education, etc.
    While these programs are nice and serve an important role in our society, we have done without them in the past.

    We could cut defense spending dramatically but it is something we could NEVER do without.
     
  13. btousley

    btousley New Member

    Jul 12, 1999
    seriously Mel - Segroves hit the nail on the head here. Yawn.

    You are nuts. Since you have already moved - go ahead and become a citizen of Sweden or Finland and go the whole way to socialism. There are lots of folks who will gladly become legal citizens of this country as it is. You really should go back and read the Federalist papers before you do however.
     
  14. Coach_McGuirk

    Coach_McGuirk New Member

    Apr 30, 2002
    Between the Pipes
    Ane we are all appreciative

    Because it's America, and we're a republic. If that bothers you, go further away, forget English, and enjoy your daily dose of Pravda

    God, that is fiction. It should be shelved with the rest of the horror books. What's the title: "Government as I See It: A View From Gumdrop Mountain where Faeries Play and Air Cars Softly Whoosh By"" by Mel?


    Please refer to my book, "The Cold Reality: Government That Does What It Wants No Matter What Mel Says (and the SUV's that transport them)" by Coach John McGuirk.
     
  15. dfb547490

    dfb547490 New Member

    Feb 9, 2000
    The Heights
    Mel...you do realize that if what you are advocating comes to fruition, spending on defense would go way, way up and spending on social programs would go way, way down, do you not?

    Americans aren't Europeans. Any crazy new law or governmental process that you can come up with is not going to change that fact. We don't have a comparitively right-wing government because the process tricks people into voting for candidates they don't want or because the process is rigged, we have a comparitively right-wing government because most Americans want a comparitively right-wing government (yeah, turnout was only 60% or so, but you know what? I could give a rat's ass about the other 40%--they had the right to vote, and they didn't, so they have no right to complain that government doesn't represent them).

    A Republican President just got re-elected to a second term less than a month ago. Republicans have been elected to majorities in both houses of Congress (with the exception of the 50-50 Senate elected in 2000 and later turned to 50-49) in 6 consecutive elections dating back 10 years. 29 out of 50 states will have Republican Governors come January.

    Bottom line, there are more of us than there are of you. Deal with it, or try to change it, but don't claim that your ideas aren't in power because the system is screwing you.
     
  16. Mel Brennan

    Mel Brennan PLANITARCHIS' BANE

    Paris Saint Germain
    United States
    Apr 8, 2002
    Baltimore
    Club:
    Paris Saint Germain FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Why? (...stick around for it...)
     
  17. Mel Brennan

    Mel Brennan PLANITARCHIS' BANE

    Paris Saint Germain
    United States
    Apr 8, 2002
    Baltimore
    Club:
    Paris Saint Germain FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    No, I'm advocating the bare minimums to run our departments as they are currently constituted, not a re-conception of departments based upon the bar minimums for societal survival. So, for example, a Dept. of Education or Defense would have debated openly that which they needed, as a minimum, to do the job, thus incurring open debate ON what their job actually is and how it should be approached, etc., as opposed to some conception of "bare minimum" that argued no Dept. of Defense or of Education at all.

    At least, that's what this protaganist will be arguing. She loses, btw. But as a way of talking about choice in where our taxes go, I thought I'd throw it out there. Some really funny replies though, outside yours, which was reasonable. McGuirk had the whole department here laughing...nothing like free cyber-humour.
     
  18. dfb547490

    dfb547490 New Member

    Feb 9, 2000
    The Heights
    For the reasons I explained above. We're not Europeans. We value defense more than social programs...that's just the way it is.
     
  19. Mel Brennan

    Mel Brennan PLANITARCHIS' BANE

    Paris Saint Germain
    United States
    Apr 8, 2002
    Baltimore
    Club:
    Paris Saint Germain FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So your current representatives are not in fact representative? (Stick around...)
     
  20. dfb547490

    dfb547490 New Member

    Feb 9, 2000
    The Heights
    Not quite.

    Most (not all, but most) people who advocate social programs do so because they benefit from said programs. The fact that they benefit from these programs means, in most cases, that they don't pay enough taxes to significantly fund said programs were they given the discretion of whether or not to do so. Meanwhile, most Americans who do pay a sizeable portion of their income as taxes will, if given the choice, allocate more of their spending to defense (given the hypothetical scenario where defense vs. social programs are the only 2 possible choices, which of course is not the case, but for the sake of argument let's assume it is). Why? Because every American individual benefits from defense spending, but a minority of Americans benefit extensively from social programs (excluding here bare-bones stuff such as public schools, etc). The average American who isn't on welfare and doesn't have any friends or family on welfare is not going to allocate a significant portion of their taxes to federal welfare programs. Americans who do benefit from these programs have the power of the vote to get representatives into government who will fight on their behalf for these programs to be put into place, but they in most cases do not have the financial power to be able to fund these programs themselves using their own tax money--in fact, they don't have the financial ability to fund the programs themselves by very definition, because if they did, then there'd be no need for the programs to exist in the first place. If your idea was implemented, defense and infrastructure spending would increase slightly, education spending would increase drastically, and spending on pretty much everything else would plummet. Which, I have to say, would be a pretty good thing.

    Something tells me that you know all this, however, and so your solution would be to implement obscenely high "bare minimums" for social programs and obscenely low "bare minimums" for defense.

    Also, given your proposal, if 50% of each individual's taxes is enough to cover the "bare minimum" needed for societal upkeep...um, maybe I'm missing something but why the hell, exactly, should we pay the other 50% at all???
     
  21. Smiley321

    Smiley321 Member

    Apr 21, 2002
    Concord, Ca
    Once again, Mel goes so far out on the left that he meets the right-wing tax protesters on the far side of the moon.

    The right-wingers claim that the income tax is unconstitutional. Many of the proud refusedniks have spent time in prison, because the IRS isn't real tolerant of these folks.
     
  22. Attacking Minded

    Attacking Minded New Member

    Jun 22, 2002
    1) No one gave me any land. 2) You should have considered that your self-absorption is a part of the government I don’t like.

    Now my question: What if someone wanted to only honor the civil rights they liked? What would you think about that?

    [Mel]Answer it . . . . . . if you dare.[/Mel]
     
  23. Mel Brennan

    Mel Brennan PLANITARCHIS' BANE

    Paris Saint Germain
    United States
    Apr 8, 2002
    Baltimore
    Club:
    Paris Saint Germain FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Wrong. Link?

    This is, amazingly, both myopicly and galactically stupid. Oh, uh, link?

    You would, you're wrong and almost everyone I spend (spent) time with in America, from all over the nation, be it Dallas, Miami, Ontario CA, Seattle, Philly, North Jersey, South Jersey, Rockville MD, D.C. are generally living refutation of your assertion.

    Because we're not the worst aspects of the Soviet Union. Not yet. We aren't a bare minimum society, expecting and promoting bare minimums. We're a fully fund it society, but that should be cojoined with a fuller expression of citizen choice.

    I have no link, but I think that if L.I.T.E. were implemented, you'd find an overwhelming funding of education and health care and social programs, and a reduction of defense to levels refective of the levels seen around the world among major powers. The major side benefit would be the transparency of process...the anti-pork power of it all, to be frank.

    While I'm sure those I know deserve it, I'm not sure you do. I think that, given your positions taken here, you really do deserve everything this government does, starting with, sadly, making life hard for at least some of your BC compatriots. Are you telling them that they have folks like you to thank for their newfound financial difficulties?
     
  24. Barbara

    Barbara BigSoccer Supporter

    Apr 29, 2000
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think it would be interesting to see what would happen if people were able to vote with their taxes. It'll never happen and would probably result in disaster but what if we were able to allocate our taxes between a handful of broad line items (defense, welfare, health care, space & other scientific research, law enforcement, education, and probably some others I can't think of off the top of my head.)

    I really do wonder how it would shake out. Hell, without giving it a whole lot more thought, I don't even know how I'd allocate my own taxes.
     
  25. Mel Brennan

    Mel Brennan PLANITARCHIS' BANE

    Paris Saint Germain
    United States
    Apr 8, 2002
    Baltimore
    Club:
    Paris Saint Germain FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    The sense of personal empowerment (and, for many, I'd guess including yourself, the bit of responsibility in terms of realising there's so much more to KNOW before we could effectively allocate taxes with a clear conscience) is exciting, isn't it? I think it would break down a bit like this: Departments, now fighting not with isolatable, easily lobbyable representatives for thier budget dollars, would have to convince the people themselves. I think that their convincing, were the law put to use correctly, would take the form of legally binding information fronted with ad campaigns (and the amoutn spent on that would have to be capped as well, I think). Getting behind the ads to the real information, and havng a year-to-year (or maybe you cold commit a certain percentage for a specific number of years, allowing departments to implement strategically) ability to look at a department and hold them accountable for what they just claimed they'd do, would be a far more transparent process, whatever you think of it as an enitre concept, than what we have now, no question. The thing, to me, hinges upon rooting out all the Rove-ian loopholes, and keeping Congress from providing any through the back door of their own, less transparent, processes.

    But even if you were to eventually tell me that this is sh!t and for me to go ******** myself, I appreciate the fact that you seem to acknowedge the excitement inherent in the idea...to me, its a citizen idea, a democratic idea, that balances better the notion of representative republic and information-era citizenship.
     

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