Zidane vs Christiano Ronaldo

Discussion in 'Players & Legends' started by boldaring, Apr 23, 2007.

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  1. Leto

    Leto New Member

    Aug 23, 2001
    Donegal,Ireland
    Playing what? He never claimed that Zidane was the best of the last decade. It ain't Teso vs. The World.
     
  2. gazzad_5

    gazzad_5 Member

    Jan 19, 2004
    fair doos you dont rate him as highly as others, and even if stats can lie, surely not this much?
     
  3. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    No plainly those are not the only ones I disagree with. They are simply so far from being on the same level as Zidane as to make your entire argument pathetic.

    If I was to try and suggest 5 defenders better than Bobby Moore, and my suggestions were Beckenbauer, Baresi, Scirea, Titus Bramble and David May, it would rather highlight my complete lack of judgement.

    That is what your inclusion of Johan Micoud does for your list. It invalidates your entire judgement because it is the most obvious sign of your vast bias against Zidane.

    The problem with this entire argument is a lack of criteria. On what basis is Jaap Stam a better player than Zidane?

    The people that are arguing are all using completely different criteria in attempting to argue their point.

    Attempting to compare central defenders and goalkeepers to attacking midfielders and strikers is basically just impossible and for that reason (among many) your list is ridiculous.

    Quite.
     
  4. Naughty by Nature

    Naughty by Nature New Member

    Oct 11, 2005
    Earth: Europe : ??
    Prove to me that Zidane is overrated or that Totti who you worship is better.
     
  5. Tribune

    Tribune Member

    Jun 18, 2006
    Let me adress this issue as well. You said I focused my attention on club level. That's right. And I had a very solid reason for it.

    Let's see : Pele played 1363 games in his career. Out of those, only 97 were with the national team.

    In short, the number of games played at international level usually represents up to a maximum if 15% of a player's career.

    Second, the games with the national team are too depending on particular circumstances, too few and the distances between them, in time, are too big to base a definitive conclusion on them. For instance, you play a game today and the next one is after several months. For instance, before the last WC, Brazil played the last serious tournament in the summer of 2005. In one year, they went from good to crap. On the other hand, at club level you play week after week, not once in 3 months.

    For instance, you say that France was crap when Zidane was off. And you provide three examples. Let's see, is that so ?

    WC 2002 - France was crap. True. But was that because Zidane was injured ? Let's take a look at WC 2006. In Germany, the performance of France in the group stages, WITH ZIDANE IN THE TEAM, was absolutely NO DIFFERENT than the one from 2002, when Zidane was out. They did not play better at all. In that case where does the difference lie ? The issue here is that in 2002 France had more powerful opponents in the group stage. For instance, in 2002 they played their last game against Denmark, in 2006 they played the last game against Togo. Benefiting from a much easier group, France managed to clinch the needed result and go through. If not for the poor standard of the opposition, France would not have qualified and it would have been the same as 2002 - but this time with no injury excuses for Monsieur Zidane.
    France's failure in 2002 has nothing to do with Zidane. It was a clear case of choking combined with a low start. Something which we have seen many times in the past.

    WC 2006 qualifiers - Zidane was retired so France struggled. Really ? It may look so, but remember that Zidane did not return alone. Thuram and Makelele also returned to the NT during that time. It makes quite a difference, right ? Besides, France struggled in 1999 as well.

    EC 2004 - off-form ? To this, I remember that Zidane said at that time that he never felt better in his whole life. Zidane was not off-form during that tournament. He was just his usual inconsistent self. The game versus Greece was quite similar with the one versus Croatia. Only that this time Thuram did not save his ass again.

    Platini scored 41 in only 72 caps. Do you really want to make a comparison ?
    Second, I cannot express an opinion on assists statistic since I have not seen any such statistic yet. If you have a link, could you provide it to me as well ?

    But let's go further... Let's see what happened when he retired :

    France - Israel 0 - 0
    Faroe - France 0 - 2
    France - Ireland 0 - 0
    Cyprus - France 0 - 2
    France - Switzerland 0 - 0
    Israel - France 1 - 1

    And with Zidane :

    France - Faroe 3 - 0
    Ireland - France 0 - 1
    Switzerland - France 1 - 1
    France - Cyprus 4 - 0

    What were you saying ? His influence on the pitch was "huge" ? Mate, Zidane did his part, because he is a good player, but HUGE ? You know, maybe I have sight problems, but France beat Faroe away 2 - 0. When Zidane returned, it's not like France beat Faroe 10-0 when played at home, right ? And, in general, it does not look to me like France ran the opposition (and a very average one, I might say) over once Zidane came back.

    And, btw, France did not lost 5 games with Zidane, but 7. And drew 27. Here is the list of Zidane's international appearances :

    http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/zidane-intl.html

    Second, out of those games lost without Zidane, how many were official games and how many were friendlies ?
    Because, out of the 108 games of Zidane, 59 were friendlies. Only 49 were official ones.
    And how many were in qualifications ? Those things make a difference.
    At first sight, what you said, looks impressive, but if you take a closer look it is not. After all, on paper, Zidane's performances in the major tournaments look great : 25 games, only 2 defeats, 7 draws. But if you look closer, you will see that Zidane was not as good as this statistic suggest. Ordinary in 1998 until the final, great in 2000 minus the final, injured in 2002, inconsistent in 2004 and 2006.

    Third, about those 10 games you claim France lost without Zidane, where do they come from ? Zidane played in the majority of France's official games during 1994-2006.

    WC 2006 : France played one game without Zidane and won.
    In WC 2006 qualifications, Zidane missed 6 games. France did not lose any.
    In WC 2002, France played 2 games without Zidane, lost one, drew the other.
    At Euro 2000, France played one game without Zidane, after they were already qualified, and lost 2-3 against a solid dutch side.
    In Euro 2000 qualifications, Zidane missed 4 games. France lost only one of them, a 2 - 3 at home against Russia.
    In WC 1998, France played 2 games without Zidane, won both of them.
    In Euro 1996 qualifications, Zidane missed 4 games. France did not lose any of those 4, there was 1 victory, 3 draws ;

    So, in official games, France played 20 games without Zidane. Out of those, they lost only THREE.

    Where do the other 7 games came from ? Were they not, perhaps, games from second-hand tournaments and friendlies were France used a B-team ?
    Against Holland in 2000, for instance, they used several substitutes from the standard : no Zidane, Deschamps, Thuram, Lizarazu, Henry, who were all regular starters in 2000. Take that game out, for instance, and you will have only TWO defeats without Zidane.
     
    Ozora repped this.
  6. Teso Dos Bichos

    Teso Dos Bichos Red Card

    Sep 2, 2004
    Purged by RvN
    Playing at his sniping game, as I explained previously. He knows what I was asked to provide and then decides to attack a tiny fraction of my list and offers no further contribution to the discussion. He knew what he was doing, so stop trying to defend him.
     
  7. nicephoras

    nicephoras A very stable genius

    Fucklechester Rangers
    Jul 22, 2001
    Eastern Seaboard of Yo! Semite
    One last post like a couple of the above and the thread will be closed. If posters here here can't stop throwing around insults I'll move the thread to World Rivalries.
     
  8. Teso Dos Bichos

    Teso Dos Bichos Red Card

    Sep 2, 2004
    Purged by RvN
    I assume you will be editing comme's post? If not, why was my perfectly legitimate response completely removed?
     
  9. Naughty by Nature

    Naughty by Nature New Member

    Oct 11, 2005
    Earth: Europe : ??
    I dont see why my post was edited, there was no personal attack in there.
     
  10. nicephoras

    nicephoras A very stable genius

    Fucklechester Rangers
    Jul 22, 2001
    Eastern Seaboard of Yo! Semite
    comme's post has no personal attack. If you want to discuss why placing Nakata and Micoud on that list is remotely justifiable, do it without resorting to insulting comme.

    Then we disagree. If you want to continue this further, please use PMs.
     
  11. Teso Dos Bichos

    Teso Dos Bichos Red Card

    Sep 2, 2004
    Purged by RvN
    I did but you deleted it.

    If you believe there was a personal attack then you should have removed it and left the rest of the post intact. It is strange how my response to Leto remains but everything else was removed. If comme's post is considered fine then my response to it should be treated in the same manner. Put the rest of my post back or I will take matters further.
     
  12. nicephoras

    nicephoras A very stable genius

    Fucklechester Rangers
    Jul 22, 2001
    Eastern Seaboard of Yo! Semite
    Your post contained personal insults, which comme's did not. I tried to carve around them, but it ultimately proved impossible. Any further questions about this should be dealt with by PMs.
     
  13. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    You seem to think that I snipe, yet let's look at your first three posts of this thread

    "Captaining the vastly overrated class I pressume?"

    "Do a search and don't blindly believe the myth."

    "Sorry, your answer is incorrect. Please try again later."

    If that is not sniping then I fail to see quite what it is.

    The names I pointed out were simply a sample of how totally flawed your point is.

    Zidane is neither the greatest player of his generation, nor some mere also ran as you seem to want to suggest. He was a truly great player, and among the very greatest of the turn of the 20th century. No more, no less.
     
  14. Leto

    Leto New Member

    Aug 23, 2001
    Donegal,Ireland
    I don't think he requires much defence - I can't see many people falling for the the 'he started it' routine. If you really want to get your point across, I'd suggest taking a leaf out of Tribune's book rather than lashing out at everyone else in the thread.
     
  15. Teso Dos Bichos

    Teso Dos Bichos Red Card

    Sep 2, 2004
    Purged by RvN
    The difference is I was 'sniping' at several people. You only contributions to BS recently have been entering a thread, not contributing at all to the discussion and then selecting a post of mine to start a rant over. This is yet another example.
     
  16. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    A simple search of my recent posts will show that this claim is based in about as much fact as most of your arguments. None.

    The vast majority of my recent posts have been about Euro 2008.

    You really are getting paranoid.
     
  17. blanc

    blanc Member

    Jan 13, 2006
    Los Galácticos
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Tribune your posts are extremely entertaining and read-able. Very nice :D

    However, I beg to differ on any one game Zidane dominated in such a magnitude. France versus Brazil, World Cup Quarter Finals, 2006?

    I watched that game from start to end with my father and we were both (hes a rugby fan) very impressed. Zidane ran absolute circles around the Brazillian team (IIRC, he did not lose the ball once, nor give away a ball, all the while pulling out all the little tricks/aesthetics, lets say :p)

    While there was only one goal, goals win games, no? And Zidane had a great contribution, it was a beautiful long range cross to Henry's head (and with Carlos marking him, I couldn't see that not being laid in); a testament to the man's vision and ball accuracy.

    Another arguable game where Zidane dominated (?), or at least made a HUGE contribution, was the France England game at Euro 2004.

    IMO. :)
     
  18. O Fenômeno

    O Fenômeno New Member

    Apr 21, 2007
    New Jersey
    close this thread...teso turned this into a zidane hate thread....
     
  19. lost

    lost Member

    May 24, 2006
    England


    Watch that game again, it was a lesson in how to take zz out of a game, he was a spectator until the 88th minute, but , if you give a genius an oportunity and it is rare that they dont take it.
     
  20. Teso Dos Bichos

    Teso Dos Bichos Red Card

    Sep 2, 2004
    Purged by RvN
    I see you have since moved on. Credit to you for that and apologies. Now would you care to contribute to the overall discussion or are you going to continue arguing over my list?

    Not at all. If you are incapable of discussing Zidane objectively and cannot refute anything that has been posted then move along.
     
  21. Walter3000

    Walter3000 Member+

    Apr 8, 2004
    gainesville, Florida
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Judging by your constant attacks, and that hilarious list, you are talking about yourself here.
     
  22. Teso Dos Bichos

    Teso Dos Bichos Red Card

    Sep 2, 2004
    Purged by RvN
    Try reading the thread. Numerous people have attacked me as well. That is not the issue. Zidane fans have posed questions that Tribune and I have answered. Instead of trying to refute what we posted or answering any of our questions, they unsurprisingly ignored our posts or simply disappeared from the discussion. This continued argument about my list is rather pathetic and completely irrelevant to the overall discussion. I was asked to list 20 players, I listed over 50. Obviously people will disagree with some names but most agree with the majority. Unfortunately a few individuals refuse to move on and are sidetracking the discussion. This thread is about Zidane, not attacking me nor creating an argument over a few names.
     
  23. nicephoras

    nicephoras A very stable genius

    Fucklechester Rangers
    Jul 22, 2001
    Eastern Seaboard of Yo! Semite
    Closed. Honestly, how freaking difficult is it to discuss a subject without accusing others of bias?
     

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