New Zack City: Steffen at Middlesbrough (olf Manchester City)

Discussion in 'Yanks Abroad' started by Chance, Dec 8, 2014.

  1. TarHeels17

    TarHeels17 Member+

    Jan 10, 2017
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Steffen only gets paid 145k at Columbus. He’s due for a pay raise, and Columbus is about to get some serious ROI.
     
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  2. BostonRed

    BostonRed Member+

    Oct 9, 2011
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    While MLSsoccer.com is owned by the league, they don't limit their articles to only officially sanctioned news. It's not the same as MLS saying this is happening.
     
  3. BostonRed

    BostonRed Member+

    Oct 9, 2011
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Did they hire this "number genius" from Stoke City?
     
  4. Balerion

    Balerion Member+

    Aug 5, 2006
    Roslindale, MA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't know anything about Bristol City's savvy in particular, but "no idea how the work permit process functions" has been a surprisingly common occurrence among lower-division English clubs over the years.
     
  5. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    I didnt mean that. I was suggesting somebody other than Bristol was interested in making an offer. whether the Bristol interest is real or if he cant get a work permit, this "news" helps in other negotiations.
     
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  6. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    I imagine at Bristol they should easily double or triple that. But I doubt he gets 7 figures at a mid-table Championship club. But a solid 2 or 3 years there and he will be starting in a top 3 league.
     
  7. TheFalseNine

    TheFalseNine Moderator
    Staff Member

    Arsenal
    United States
    Jul 15, 2014
    Norman, Okla.
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
     
  8. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    My opinion is based on personal experience, coaching goalkeepers, following goalkeepers through their careers and discussing with others with playing and/or coaching experience.

    Of course playing and playing experience is important... which makes your argument seem like an easy one to make. Playing games is a small fraction of soccer players career and can be seen as the test of all of their other preparation. Playing experience is helpful in seeing many different situations so that the goalkeeper ultimately is more comfortable/confident and makes better decisions. "Playing" helps a goalkeeper be sharp and at the top of his game.

    Who are those coaches that you reference and what is the context? Are they national team coaches talking about what they want of their starting goalkeeper or a goalkeeping coach giving career advice to a young player?

    I agree with a lot of what Howard says, but not sure why a GK cant learn from mistakes in training but can in games in the park. A player can learn a lot from mistakes in practice if he chooses to do so and consequences are that you never improve your position in the team. There are also some history with Howard struggling to learn from his mistakes which ultimately meant manchester united purchased a better GK. Which of his three years at Man U were the most instrumental in his career? He probably could have learned a lot from Van der Saar if he wanted to. Game like situations are very important and what help a goalkeeper perform in an actual game. The actual game may be slightly more important but without practicing game like situations, the goalkeeper is going to be less successful in games.

    Goalkeeping is a different animal in many ways. It requires a very different psychological make up and there is one #1 with being a rotation player or late sub is generally not an option. Picking a club where a GK is ensured to play would mean choosing a lower level than he might be able to play or growing into in a year or two.

    "Playing" isnt the same everywhere. Playing at a lower level isnt necessarily going to prepare a GK to get to higher level. If Steffen's goal is to get to one of the top teams in one of the top leagues, there are much better options to prepare him for that than playing in MLS. Being a starter at a championship team would include much higher scrutiny than what he has now. Being a back up at a top half table team in a big 4 league would give home time to adapt to the higher level without the pressure of performing each week.

    When a goalkeeper moves up a level or two, the game changes in many ways. Most notably, any weakness a GK has is more likely to get exploited. A goalkeeper might not even be aware of positional mistakes until a better, crafty player punishes him. Rebounds that were no big deal become goals. Shots and crosses are hit with more pace, movement, and accuracy and attackers timing is improved. All of these things take time to adapt to and for some people are better of focusing on the progress while not having the pressure and criticism of mistakes.
     
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  9. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    I hope he's ready for a top 4 league within a year. Though I'd love to see him go abroad once the season ends. But usually it's better for them to go during summer right?
     
  10. Ger90

    Ger90 Member+

    May 13, 2016
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    what's all this Bristol talk? the title says he's going to Freiburg.:p
     
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  11. mattjo

    mattjo Member+

    Feb 3, 2001
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It is your opinion which is fine. There are others who have coached and played at a high level who have a different opinion than yours. We have a poster on here who coached Friedel, so he has commented on goalkeeping specifics before. Your posting history presents a very pro-European view when it comes to tplayer development and playing. That is fine. My posting history shows that I don't believe there is a one size fits all style. I do chuckle going back to read the earlier postings in this exact thread when Zach departed Germany for MLS: he wasn't talented enough to even play 2.Bundesliga; he is mentally weak; etc. Despite those predictions, he may be the front runner to become the US keeper.

    The coaches I have seen comment on the importance of keepers getting minutes were both league and National team sides. Off the top of my head, Arena saying Howard was more valuable getting minutes in MLS rather than being 3rd keeper at a world cup and Chelsea sending pretty much all of its youth keepers on loan to lower league sides because they feel the minutes in real game times is helpful. I have seen similar articles throughout my time on Big Soccer from various leagues stating that.

    As far as what Howard was trying to say, the pressure and consequences in a real match are different than training. You coach keepers, so you understand the huge mental aspects to that position. A mistake in training is not public; it doesn't lead to real results. A mistake in match is viewed by fans, coaches, etc. There is more pressure; There are consequences; As far as Championship vs. MLS, I figured it depends on the individual. There have been numerous examples of keepers being properly prepared to play in top leagues directly from MLS: Friedel, Guzan, Howard. There have been others who took a more circuitous route: Hahneman (A-League to MLS to Championship down to league One and eventually to a promoted EPL team). As such there is empirical evidence that there are multiple routes.

    Personally, I am fine with whatever Zack chooses, as I think it is basically one dozen half dozen the other on whether MLS or Championship will provide the better opportunity. Maybe David Coles could provide a different style training than Pat Onstad.
     
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  12. autobus39

    autobus39 Member+

    Jun 28, 2006
    Scranton, PA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  13. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    What is mentally weak? What does this apply to?
     
  14. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    So he's good as gone come December? Always tough to make a move in the off-season. But maybe he gets loaned out until summer
     
  15. mattjo

    mattjo Member+

    Feb 3, 2001
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Oh there was an old post stating that his homesickness is why some people think Americans can't succeed in Europe.

    "Dude left because he was homesick...at 21 years-old. Wow. This is part of the reason so many people don't believe American players have the right mindset to succeed at the highest levels in Europe."
     
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  16. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    I think some of us forget the difficulties of being so far. Primarily if you come from a middle class setting. You may not have the "fight or die" feeling toward soccer. Simply play and do well or go to college. I'm sure Steffen is ready now. Being 21 as no.3 in a foreign country maybe it wasnt easy. But I feel he is ready. Another year in MLS might do him some good though.
     
  17. mattjo

    mattjo Member+

    Feb 3, 2001
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    yes, people are all different and have different psychological needs. Lots of reasons some people adjust easily and others not, and those reasons can vary based on location, coaches, support network, etc. I have spent more of my professional life living in foreign countries than I have in the U.S. and have always enjoyed it, but I have also seen those who struggle. Some of those who struggled were some really strong people I know who endured things most others can't imagine, so I don't agree when somebody categorically labels somebody as "weak" because they get homesick.
     
  18. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    I concur.

    Does anyone recall what Freiburg thought of him back then or did they make the efforts to help battle that feeling?
     
  19. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    My posting history shows that I am generally for selecting the best players and players need successive challenges , which can include MLS. I actually think MLS can be a better option for younger GKs for a couple years. I also dont believe there is a one size fits all and that is why took issue with the playing comment. So instead of talking in generalities, lets talk specifically about Steffen.

    I have been extremely high on Steffen since seeing him with the U20s. His game was very complete for his age with very few weaknesses. I think he has made good progress since then and has made good decisions with his career to this point. I think giving Freiburg a shot early on exposed him to a lot of things he wouldn't have gotten if he hadnt gone abroad. It was working for him personally, so making a change made sense. Going to Columbus and getting a loan to Pittsburg was helped with the personal stuff and gave him a chance to get minutes and rebuild confidence (if that was needed). He then raised his game and won the spot with the Crew. I think he has used that the last couple years to better himself, but think that he is ready for a bigger challenge and his improvement will begin to slow at some point in the near future.

    It doesnt look like the Championship is happening, but I think it would be a better alternative at this time. It would force him to figure out how to make it work for him personally, it would increase the pressure he would be under, and it would be a different style of play so would experience different game situations. From what I have read, Steffen has a very good head for the position and deals with the ups and down in a very good way. Ignoring the work permit issue, I'd also think that it would be better for him if a team like Tottenham wanted to groom him to take over from Lloris in a couple years.

    Pressure and consequence are two separate things that are or at least can be related. I'd think a 23 yo goalkeeper trying to make the jump to the highest level of the game would have more than enough pressure from himself to perform day in and day out and of course would still have the pressure from the coaching staff and teammates. When making the adjustment to a higher level, I'd rather not have consequences on top of that. Some may thrive in it and some would crumble. Howard should be able to speak about how having too much pressure and resulting consequence can be detrimental. If a player wants to get to the top of the game, they will eventually have to deal with it, but maybe not ideal all at once.

    I'd disagree with your take on Friedel, Howard and Guzan. Friedel played 31 games at Liverpool over 3 season and dropped down to the Championship before becoming a regular in the EPL at 30 yo. Howard started off strong, but the psychological side ended up meaning playing very little games in years 2 and 3. He dropped down a level in the EPL and stayed there for the rest of his career. Guzan played one EPL and cup games in his first 2.5 seasons, a half season loan to the championship, and then another season before becoming a starter.
     
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  20. Pegasus

    Pegasus Member+

    Apr 20, 1999
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    A friend of mine has a saying that a keepers not mature until he's allowed at least 100 goals in matches. Playing very young in any crap league accelerates that learning.
     
  21. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Again, matches are very important, but what a goalkeeper does in between matches is also very important too.

    This whole playing matches over anything else is very dangerous and misleading. Bill Hamid gave up almost 250 goals in MLS and I wouldnt call him a mature goalkeeper. The guy hasnt improved since 2014. Friedel and Guzan spent years as back ups and made a lot of progress during those periods.

    Steffen has shown he can play at the MLS level. He needs more of a challenge to stimulate his growth.
     
  22. Pegasus

    Pegasus Member+

    Apr 20, 1999
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Hamid is mature. What you see is what you get. Steffen has a lot of room to grow.
     
  23. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    did Hamid really give up 250 goals?
     
  24. ArsenalMetro

    ArsenalMetro Member+

    United States
    Aug 5, 2008
    Chicago, IL
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    245 across regular season and playoffs. 4 more in Open Cup and 2 in CCL puts him over 250!
     
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  25. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    plus from the RISING series on US Soccer website...he is clearly a very family-oriented tight-knit family guy....his family is very close and he says he gets a lot of inspiration from being with them so it makes sense.
     
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