Youngsters in MLS (1997 or later)

His first start probably will be their first cup game.

 

Yeesh, so much salt on here. Carleton just joined back with this team from U17 duty 2 weeks ago. I think it's really good that the is making the bench and I'm sure he will slowly get time as the year goes on. Yes he didn't make it onto the field against NYCFC, but we also lost to them 4-1 last time we played and that is a flattering scoreline. AUFC moved to a sort of 6-3-1 at the end to hold on to the lead and they wanted Kenwyne to be a human battering ram against tired legs. Bringing on a 16 year old winger doesn't really fit very well into holding a lead against a team that is held in such high regard.

Carleton will get time as the season progresses, but I will never be more than a sub here and there. Martinez will be back next week, so one of the starters right now will move to the bench and it'll probably be gressel (maybe). And gressel has looked pretty dang good. I know people want Carleton to get time over him, but why would Martino change something that has worked to the point of being the 2nd best attack in the league? To develop Carleton? That can be done while giving him some sub minutes here and there. The open cup game will be soon, maybe we see him there. He is 16 years old and is trying to break through an attack of multiple South American international players, a rookie who has 4 assists this year, and another player who has 6 assists this year. I understand everyone's frustrations, but it's gonna be really hard to break through this team.

 

Some of us are being a bit melodramatic here about Carleton. He's been in-and-out of the team with the U17s for quite a while. In fact, he'll leave for an extended period again as the U17s train for the World Cup and then will hopefully have an extended run to the World Cup.

While Carleton has been out with the US U17s, perhaps other players are at practice earning the right for more playing time. Other players are perhaps more in-tune with what the coaching staff is looking for out there.

I know folks don't really think of it this way, but Andrew Carleton is younger than Josh Sargent.
I want him to play too, but a little patience is required here.

 

Atlanta didn't have to send him to the U-17's. That was their choice. Lets not act like thats any excuse. You can also tout those players all you want, but they are not Neymar, Messi and Suarez. They are a bunch of nobodies, in the grand scheme of things. Pulisic had to beat out Schurrle, Kagawa, Mor, etc for playing time. Thats real competition. If Carleton is as good as most think and what he showed compared to those players in preseason, he should make quick work of the players you named as his competition for playing time. But, that would only happen, if he's given a chance to play. One 5 minute runout three months into the season pretty much tells us the story. If this continues throughout the season and into the next few seasons, it should be a cautionary tale for the next group of youngsters from their academy, just like the EPB at SKC situation.

 

He's 16 yrs old. You have to get off this kick. They let him go because he wasn't needed in any pressing capacity. Let him grow up a little. He's in a very unique situation with the U17s. I deal in fact. He did go. Period.

 

A quirk of soccer fans, at least on these boards, is putting a ton of stock in preseason. That seems to be the major flaw here. It's good to participate in preseason to get used to your team, sure, but believing that the players who perform best in preseason (assuming one has identified them correctly in the first place) is a good predictor of league performance is probably just as foolhardy in this sport as it is in American football, basketball, baseball, etc.

Beyond that though, Carleton will have to find a way to fit into ATL's counterattacking style despite being one of their slowest attackers. One sign he can figure things out and contribute is that eye he has shown with the U-17s for the long diagonal ball especially from the left to the right side. ATL can also definitely use someone who can help unlock set defenses, which could eventually be Carleton, even though I don't think he is there yet in terms of completing passes in the final third like say Pulisic does.

 

I find the continued implications that Tata Martino doesn't know what he's doing with Carleton to be amusing to witness.

Guy has more experience with talented youth on a global scale than any coach whose ever graced our landscape.

Carleton wouldn't be on the bench if Tata had no plans to play him.

 

I'd suggest reading quotes from Pulisic on his earlier days at BVB.

He expected nothing. He was guaranteed nothing. Even this past summer he didn't think he'd play nearly as much as he ended up playing with BVB's signings.

So what did he do? He worked his ass off every single day in training and both convinced and forced Tuchel to play him. And that's what a player has to do, convince the coach he needs you out there.

That's Carleton's job now. Convince Tata. He seems on the brink. But he's also only been in a pro setup for a few months. He's learning. It's a new environment.

 

What you seem to be glossing over is that neither is Carleton.

 

I think in general people overrate our youth players while underrating MLS players.

MLS isn't a Top 4 league, but breaking into the Starting XI on most teams especially in attacking roles is no easy task. Those roles are filled with DP and TAM/GAM level players and are typically the better players in the league. The depth of the average team though is lacking, so their should be opportunities for young players in these roles.

Carelton should focus on working hard every day in practice. Earn a spot in the 18 on a weekly basis. Opportunities to start will come if Carleton can get in the 18 weekly. Open Cup, international call-ups, injuries, suspensions will provide opportunity. Atlanta's schedule is super back-loaded due to the delay in the stadium. They have lots of midweek games down the stretch. If Carleton's practices and plays well, he will get minutes.

If he plays well down the stretch then it gives Atlanta flexibility to make moves and count on Carleton to play a really big role in 2018 as a 17 year old.

Carleton doesn't fit Tata's system perfectly because he seems to prefer speedy wingers and Carelton isn't fast at all by pro standards, so that will be the biggest hurdle outside of the typically adjusting to the speed and physicality of the pro game..

 

I agree with everything you say except this little tidbit here. Asad and Gressel have been our wingers lately and I would not say that they are any faster than Carleton. Both Asad and Gressel are quick, but I think Carleton is too. I think the main thing Carleton has going for him is he slots very nicely into the system. Atlanta's attack is built off quick combination play from a press. Carleton can do the one-touch passing necessary for quick transitions. Now AUFC does use Villalba as a winger when Martinez is playing and his game is much more based around his speed and and getting in behind defenses.

I agree with @Maitreya here. You are seemingly putting a lot of stock into preseason. Which is not a great idea. Every team is experimenting in preseason, so just because someone is really good or really bad is not necessarily indicative of their talent level.

Not every team is going to playing a promising youngster right away. Carleton will get time, Martino has talked about keeping him playing with the big boys and not sending him on loan or anything. So he is clearly in his plans, so just chill.

 

If he's not gonna be getting time in Atlanta for whatever reason, I wouldn't mind him getting 90 minutes in Charleston every once in a while.

Not sure if the United-Battery partnership would allow for him to yoyo back and forth, but he's in no mans land for playtime at the moment.

 

Yeah players like Goslin and Robinson spend time with Charleston utilizing 2 game loans to provide flexibility.

 

Yes.

I didn't mean to imply that Carlton wasn't a fit in Tata's system. Just that speed/quickness is probably his biggest knock outside the normal adjust to the pace/physicality of the game.

Right now their Depth Chart is close to this with everybody healthy.

Forward - Martinez/Villaba/Jones/Vasquez.

#10 - Almiron / Not sure how the will play without him. They played 4-3-3 without Almiron last international break and were pretty benign in the attack. Gresell played there one match with Alimiron on the left and was largely ineffective.

LW - Asad / Peterson / Carlelton

RW - Villaba / Gressel / Asad / Peterson / Carleton

It sort of makes Carleton look buried, but if you look at their attacking MF options:

Almiron
Villaba
Asad
Gressel
Peterson
Carleton

At worst Carleton is 6th for 3 spots, but Gressel can play DM and Villaba can play up top, so probably closer to 5th at full strength since Gressel will likely play DM with everybody healthy. I like Peterson and think he is underrated, but also think Carleton can take some/lots of his minutes. Don't think he is better than the other top 3 right now. All 3 are pretty good and Almiron is excellent by MLS standards.

Best opportunity is probably as an attacking sub when the team needs goals. If Atlanta is up and protecting a lead they will probably sub on DM like McCann/Kratz and Jones up top to play as a lone FW holding up balls.

There are minutes to be had as the 5th or 6th winger especially with the fixture congestion that they will face late in the season. The have 7 games between Sept 10th and 30th.

 

Miazga, Glad, Redding, Lennon, etc have had no problem walking into MLS and being good or even great MLS players within a few months to months of starting. Even bad players compared to their YNT peers like Acosta and Saucedo can not look out of place in MLS. I remember tons of arguments about his Miazga's MLS readiness, and within a few months of starting regularly he was one of MLS's best defenders.

Its a pretty low quality league, which is why if they want talented young Americans to stay instead of go to Europe, they should be catering to them, to a reasonable degree. If MLS is so good, why did both preseason games Carleton got more than a few minutes the game ran completely through him? All these MLS players were on the field, yet the 16 year old was the one who stood out. You can say its only preseason, but it was only preseason for Carleton as well. How does that explain away that he was more effective and talented than his teammates who are playing more than him?

 

Your logic is so skewed. We're talking a 16 yr old and not 19 yr olds. You're overstating his Preseason impact. How many goals and assists. Preseason is played at half speed. Odd lineups jogging around a field to get in game shape and getting touches. It doesn't explain it because its not true. I will promise to stop posting about Carleton if you stop. You are just retyping the same things over and over. We know how you feel about Carleton. Just end it.

 

You always like to come after me. I don't get it. You did this the other week over a totally innocuous comment in the Pynadath thread. Maybe you should just calm down. You are so on edge whenever I make a comment.

Should it not be talked about because it doesn't fit the original narrative that some wanted people to believe? We were told he'd get playing time this season, not to worry about Martino's actions through a few weeks. This situation wasn't discussed for the next 2.5 months. Its three months now. And I wasn't the one to start this original discussion about it. You can act like I'm doing something so terribly wrong, but not everyone agrees. Someone else brought this up, others have agreed, and I've seen some Atlanta fans on twitter starting to get impatient over this as well. There'd be no reason for a long discussion if people didn't make excuses for Atlanta, but I don't even feel like the excuses are for that, more to explain why they were wrong in the first place about this. Should I dig up all the posts of the people that were wrong? I'd rather not do that. I don't want to call out people individually.

 

Type it again. I didn't quite get it.

 

I don't know what this means.

You're acting like a 16 yr old trying to break into a 1st team and not getting thrown out there immediately is abnormal.

Perhaps the issue is more your expectations.

 

I posted this on May 1st.

As an aside I went to whoscored and looked for how many 16 yr olds have featured across the top 5 leagues, Ered, Russia, Turkey, Portugal and the Brasileirao, and it's two players total I could find. Different levels sure but it's extremely rare to find 16 yr olds getting any 1st team mins, anywhere. Only player across the top 4 leagues to see any time at 16 this season is Pellegri at Genoa with a whopping 5 mins. In Ligue 1 Boris Mathis has 20 mins. Not a single 16 yr old has featured in the EPL, La Liga, Bund, Ered, Portugal, Turkey, Russia or the Brasileirao.

There's only three 16 yr olds I found globally(I didn't check every league of course) who are playing regularly. Alphonso Davies in Van, Lainez for Club America and Sessegnon for Fulham in the C'Ship.

Seems to me that Carleton already having made an appearance and is now making the 18 suggests he's ahead of the curve for his international counterparts.

 

Or perhaps there's an issue with discussing age as opposed to merit to play. The goalposts have completely been moved on this discussion. In March after people had seen him dominate during preseason, they wanted him to play. When he didn't play at first, a lot of people said it was only due to the more experienced and older players getting the first shot, that he'd get a chance eventually this season. We are three months in, and now they are sending him to a meaningless U-17 camp when they are missing many players, and need any attacking players at all. Clearly there's no rush on their part to give him a chance, he's played a token five minutes. Now many people have started taking up the position that he's only 16, so it doesn't matter if he plays, yet I don't think that was the position in late February-Early March from many people. People love making excuses for MLS teams. We still have people making excuses about 20 year olds not getting a chance. People are all too accustomed with the MLS system where a player is "young" if they are a rookie out of college at 23.

 

I think Carleton's impact in preseason is overstated. For starters it was preseason, it was only 135 minutes an the minutes were almost entirely with the reserves and players playing out of their best position.

1st Game was 45 minutes in the second half with the B-Team against Chattanooga. Never played with Almiron, Asad, Villaba. Players like Gressell were out of position playing CAM. Chattanooga is like an amateur squad and it was the 1st game for everybody. Dangerous to take too much for that type of game.

4th Game was 90 minutes against Charleston. Similar starting line-up to what Carlton played with against Chattanooga, basically a B-Team. Then just a bunch of subs the last 45 minutes with some last guy off the bench playing the second half and then a few starters the last 10 minutes. Asad and Villaba both score as well though and played well in limited minutes.

He played well in both games though and proved that he was able to play at an MLS level, but beyond generic broad thoughts not sure how you can really take much more from the performances especially since none of us are privy to how well anybody performs in training.

Since preseason Asad, Villaba, Almiron have played well to spectacular in regular season games while Carleton has been away from the team. Now he is back with the team and in the 18. Just needs to keep working and impressing Tata in training. He will get a chance at more minutes with the A-Team in games that matter and then it is fair to judge his play versus the current starters.

 

I'm not talking about those other players nor did I make any definitive predictions on Carleton. Hell, I was the guy trying to roll back the expectations. You also know I'm a harsh critic of the league's general failure to play U22's.

That aside, the stats I posted above tend to refute your point that age doesn't matter. It does. Can barely find 16 yr olds anywhere playing 1st team ball. The majority of the leagues I looked at didn't have a single 16 yr old getting a single min. And there's various reasons for that, maturity, tactical acumen and the lack there of and the sheer difference in competing against men rather than boys.

This isn't about excuses. I haven't a clue why you're framing it that way.

 

he turns 17 in less than a month so that excuse is no longer valid soon.

 

I wasn't referring to you. There's no reason to go in circles here. I just am not going to sit quiet and act like the excuses made for MLS coaches and moved goalposts are 100% fact, and there's nothing else to these situations. Whether any of those things are valid has been discussed already. I have no club biases here, only want to see Americans succeed.