Youngsters in MLS (1997 or later)

Discussion in 'Youth National Teams' started by Mario Balotelli, Mar 30, 2016.

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  1. Baysider

    Baysider Member+

    Jul 16, 2004
    Santa Monica
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy

    The hard truth is that things cost money and the way that MLS gets money to fund its development activities is by having fans buy tickets. Things that cause people to buy fewer tickets are bad for development.

    Right now I see no evidence that MLS can develop enough good players that they can either fund themselves by developing and selling players or they can field teams of domestic players that are so exciting to watch that it will increase fan support. I could be wrong, but pretty much every owner and coach seems to agree with me.

    MLS would love to have a bunch of homegrown superstars but that's not going to happen any time soon. It's not small thinking or big thinking, it's realistic thinking.
     
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  2. SUDano

    SUDano Member+

    Jan 18, 2003
    Rochester, NY
    This is exactly what's wrong with US Soccer. You are trying to convince people that by investing in youth development to try to get it to an International Standard that all countries and teams use will in fact be a hindrance to growth of the league? That's horse poo.
    The key to you post is 'Right now'. Of course MLS can't do it if they don't put money into it, grow it, build facilities, invest in it.
    Your view has no basis in best practices. We know what it takes to make players better in the most cost effective way. Its called developing your own. The sport, the league, and interest will grow exponentially if we continue the long process of standard international youth development. If we don't the American player will be marginalized and die on the vine of that absurdity. Its tiny brain thinking.
     
  3. WheezingUSASupport

    Dortmund
    United States
    Aug 28, 2017
    We just need more teams to follow the NYB/RSL model for youth.

    If a few of these teams show that investing in youth is a recipe for success and revenue then more teams will follow.

    We need at least 4-5 young players sold a year for $3-6m. Or the quality keeps going up to a point that MLS can pay top domestic players $1M+ without restrictions.
     
  4. ussoccer97531

    ussoccer97531 Member+

    Oct 12, 2012
    Club:
    --other--
    I understand your point, and I don't even fully disagree, but how well is MLS doing with their product?

    They lose in the ratings to bowling, WNBA, etc. They get destroyed in the ratings compared to LigaMX.

    Is MLS selling their product well with these "stars"? Is MLS a league capable of attracting a big audience? Is it possible that the aim from MLS is way off?

    What is the strategy of the Argentine first division or Colombian first division? Do you think the owners of those teams and executives of that league are talking up a big game about becoming among the best in the world? Or do they just try to make money the best way that their product they sell indicates they can?
     
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  5. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    #5555 Clint Eastwood, May 25, 2018
    Last edited: May 25, 2018
    They don't make money in Argentina. They can't even afford to pay the players they do have, which is why all of the players in the top 2 divisions went on strike last year. So all most teams can do is promote low-cost players from their academies that they can then sell in order to stay afloat.

    MLS, financially speaking, is in a much better place than every single South American league. As is Mexico. As BBC presenter Tim Vickery is fond of saying..............South American football has tradition and history in spades. But they don't have the money and financial resources these days. In the Western Hemisphere that's in North America. The Barco transfer to Atlanta was another wake-up call for them. There are clubs right now in South America like Independiente delel Valle of Ecuador that operate SOLELY to develop and sell players. That's their advertised business model. And that's a successful club! That will never be MLS. Never.

    [All of these financial difficulties are also part of the reason CONMEBOL is so rife with corrrumption.]

    There's no reason why MLS squads can't be a mixture of stars that puts fans in seats and also developing domestic players. No reason at all. Its not an either-or proposition. You can have Wayne Rooney and Chris Durkin in the same starting XI. There's nothing preventing teams from doing that in the current MLS rules. And they will NEVERR implement the types of rule we see in Liga MX. Never. What we need more of in MLS is fewer 30 year old journeyman Colombians. FCD right now is being connected with Panamanian forward Jose Fajardo. Why? You have a starter who's performing fine in Urruti who doesn't miss time with national team duty. You have MLS-capable backups in Tesho and Colman. Then you have a bunch of developing kids like Ferreira, Reynolds, Reid, plus the academy youngsters. You have two other GenAd winger/forwards you like in Atuahene and Twumasi that you can't find time for. You can't even find a roster spot for them because your international spots are full. One JUST opened up when Barrios got his green card. Here's your chance. But no. Adding another forward only blocks playing opportunities for these youngsters like Ferreira that we think are "top 1%" prospects. I don't get it (unless other moves are on the horizon). This is the type of nonsense we have too much of in this league.
    999723351160512512 is not a valid tweet id
     
  6. Kombucha

    Kombucha Member+

    Jul 1, 2016
    Club:
    --other--
    A minutes requirement will also decrease the chances teams sell players because it increase the value to the club of quality players that can count towards the minutes requirement.

    If you are Montreal and you have to play U20 Canadian players 1,000 minutes or face a 6 point penalty and you have Ballou Table who can hold his own in MLS and a bunch of players who are not ready are you going to sell Ballou Table to Barca B?

    Doubtful because MLS just put an artificial barrier in place that increase the value of quality U20 players to their clubs.

    Now if the league gets to the point where they have 3 Ballou Table then selling 2 of them is not a big deal, but when the league gets to that point, we are likely not discussing putting minute requirements in place.
     
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  7. ussoccer97531

    ussoccer97531 Member+

    Oct 12, 2012
    Club:
    --other--
    I'm not really worried about teams not being willing to sell players. If a player wants to leave, they'll leave. Look at Larin, look at Tabla. And this happens all over the world. How often does a player try to force their way out and a team refuses? I suspect the majority of the times, they will be sold. What's the worst that could happen if somehow the team refuses to sell? Its not like the player would not play. The team is keeping them because they need them to play minutes. If a player doesn't push hard enough for a sale, thats their own fault.
     
  8. TarHeels17

    TarHeels17 Member+

    Jan 10, 2017
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Conversely, from this fourfourtwo article: https://www.fourfourtwo.com/features/how-russia-wasted-seven-years-ahead-hosting-2018-world-cup

    Enforcing a minutes requirement on players who don't deserve it means that these young players will end up receiving a salary way higher than they deserve. Since Europe won't offer them the same money, they stay too long, and by the time their contract is over it's too late. How many players want to leave when they're getting overpaid?
     
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  9. ussoccer97531

    ussoccer97531 Member+

    Oct 12, 2012
    Club:
    --other--
    I think its a valid point that MLS salaries are hurting the flight of Americans to Europe, and a restriction on foreigners could do the same thing. But we can't make players improve. They have to want it themselves. If they have a big offer from MLS and an offer to go to Europe, play against the best teams in the world and they choose to stay home with the bloated MLS offers, how can anything really be done about that?

    I also don't know enough about the Russian league to comment on what happened there, but I would suggest that the cultural difference between what the Russian players experience in England/France/Germany/Italy/Spain is very different than what an American player experiences, so I think that plays a part there.
     
  10. butters59

    butters59 Member+

    Feb 22, 2013
    Not really. Russian hockey players coming to North America and doing great. That's just that Russian half decent domestic soccer players are hugely overpaid. Bradley level overpaid. It makes every move very risky, and often basically impossible.
     
  11. ussoccer97531

    ussoccer97531 Member+

    Oct 12, 2012
    Club:
    --other--
    Everyone in Western/Central Europe speaks English to some degree and they consume American culture. Almost no one outside of Eastern Europe speaks Russian to any degree. American players actually have it pretty easy in moving to Europe compared to what players from Africa have or the former Soviet countries. I'm not saying its easy, but I think they have it easier.
     
  12. Pegasus

    Pegasus Member+

    Apr 20, 1999
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I imagine that soon any player that wants US call-ups will be playing in Europe with a few exceptions. Just too much young talent going there now. So if a player doesn't want to do that and takes the cash they probably aren't mentally tough enough for the team anyway. Not sure if there's an age cutoff or a player can go later than what is considered ideal and still make a leap.
     
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  13. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
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  14. jond

    jond Member+

    Sep 28, 2010
    Club:
    Levski Sofia
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    FCD places a priority on signing HG's, not actually developing them.
     
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  15. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    #5565 Clint Eastwood, May 28, 2018
    Last edited: May 28, 2018
    Its incredibly strange then that FCD had four players in their starting XI this weekend that they signed as teenage homegrowns (Acosta, Gonzalez, Ulloa, Cannon). Two already have been called up by the USMNT, and the third is on his way. It would seem that developing players that eventually get called up by the USMNT is the name of the game. By the way, they won the damn game against the reigning MLS/SS champs.

    Now that the weekend is over, how many other clubs in MLS started at least 4 homegrowns? Let's see.........................................RSL obviously. I think that's it. NYRB and Philly started two each.

    Those 4 clubs: RSL, NYRB, FCD, Philly are going to end up being the top 4 in terms of homegrown minutes by a pretty substantial margin. So how about instead of insulting what any of them are trying to do.......................we put the other 16 US-based clubs under the microscope?

    How about we head down the street to Houston? What exactly are they doing?

    There's this weird trend on this board to more harthly criticize those clubs that are actually TRYING and not meeting our lofty expectations as opposed to the 3/4 of the league that is doing little to nothing.
     
  16. Pegasus

    Pegasus Member+

    Apr 20, 1999
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yes, all of you who've been criticizing FCD's HG minutes may want to rethink that now that Acosta and Gonzalez are healthy and starting along with Cannon. The younger ones are all also coming back from an incredible string of HG injuries (8 out of 10). In a few weeks as they get healthy it will be fair to criticize if they don't start also getting minutes.
     
  17. ussoccer97531

    ussoccer97531 Member+

    Oct 12, 2012
    Club:
    --other--
    Ulloa is 26 years old. He's not that good. Probably won't ever play for the USMNT. I don't think many USMNT fans care if FCD plays him.

    And with Gonzalez and Acosta, they better get going, otherwise they'll be irrelevant towards the USMNT, as well. They aren't that young anymore. Gonzalez is already 23, Acosta will be in about two months.

    The players that FC Dallas is not playing are highly touted youngsters like Pomykal, Servania, Ferreira. Thats who USMNT fans want to see play. Pomykal is probably the most talented '99 in the pool, yet we see guys like Adams and Amon bypassing him in the opinion of many because those players play for a team that is willing to play them, and Pomykal doesn't. And then we see how Reynolds has turned into a RB because FC Dallas needs practice players.

    They'll also be on the clock this summer once Richards becomes a HGP. He's pretty good. I'm not saying he absolutely needs to go straight into the starting lineup, but I think he's good enough to start getting some minutes. And at that point, let his form vs. the form of his competition dictate who plays.
     
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  18. bballshawn

    bballshawn Member+

    Feb 5, 2014
    Delaware
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    #5568 bballshawn, May 28, 2018
    Last edited: May 28, 2018
    They won't get anything more than us open cup minutes. And I'm not just being negative . It's not exactly FC Dallas but more so Pareja, I think he really wants to make a MLS Cup run and is being risk adverse in his playing time decisions. As Pulisic said BVB trusted him in big games. Pareja only seems to barely trust young players in the opening two games of the US Cup
     
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  19. TarHeels17

    TarHeels17 Member+

    Jan 10, 2017
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    RBNY is definitively number one for me because they understand that MLS minutes aren't the end game, because a guy who plays in MLS his whole life isn't going to be good enough for the nation team.

    What can Dallas do to bring themselves at the top? SELL ACOSTA. He's not getting any better here. Until that happens, I'm gonna continue to criticize. I don't care whatsoever if a player is homegrown if they're 24. Homegrown minutes =/= Minutes for Prospects. Sell Acosta, open a midfield spot, and play Servania or Pomykal.
     
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  20. Pegasus

    Pegasus Member+

    Apr 20, 1999
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I agree with that. Having a path for young HG's means not going and buying just barely better but expensive competition in front of them and also means clearing a path buy selling their predecessors. NYRB has been the best at this by far.
     
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  21. jond

    jond Member+

    Sep 28, 2010
    Club:
    Levski Sofia
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I might counter with there's a weird trend to pretend like everything development wise in MLS is quite fine while regularly presenting FCD this and NYRB that. Your conclusion here is quite odd when I've seen you regularly refute criticisms about how poorly most of the league is at player development. Teams like Houston, SJ and Chicago among others are atrocious. It's criminal how SJ and Chi have wasted what are generally two of our better youth markets.

    I'd say an issue with your response if you're conflating generations. My point, while a bit tongue and cheek, is really about playing and developing the current young HG generation. I no longer, for development purposes, consider a HG a HG after he's signed an extension and is no longer on a HG contract. An Acosta or Ulloa were HG's. And FCD is terrible at what I'll refer to as the full cycle development. That includes selling players on so the next cycle of HG's breaks thru.

    And that's really the point. At FCD players HG or not across the board stall in development. Whether Fabian Castillo previously or guys like Hedges and Acosta. FCD really has a poor track record of taking these young players, then developing and selling them. So you combine that with FCD signing mediocre foreigners and not having a USL team while signing more HG's than any other team and my original tongue and cheek statement rings true.

    How many American U21's has FCD given mins to this year?

    2

    Reggie Cannon a RB, who I like and then Pomykal who's gotten 22 mins.

    And as we know, the MLS salary structure dictates that American defenders will get more opportunity as that's where the cheap labor comes from. So it's not surprising that yet again the only young American getting a real shot at FCD is a RB.
     
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  22. WheezingUSASupport

    Dortmund
    United States
    Aug 28, 2017
    Yes this is the problem. It’s too many foreign MLS players getting green cards and freeing up international slots.

    Every year we have a higher % of international players, and each year there’s a higher and higher % of foreign players getting green cards.

    It’s going to be sad when we have more teams like Portland and NYCFC.

    I have to say though there are far more domestic (both Canadian and American) young players getting minutes compared to last year when it felt like it was just Adams mostly.
     
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  23. SUDano

    SUDano Member+

    Jan 18, 2003
    Rochester, NY
    With the increase in Green Cards MLS can lower the number of International Slots to somewhat counter balance the issue.
     
  24. WheezingUSASupport

    Dortmund
    United States
    Aug 28, 2017
    Yup this would work perfectly but of course this will never happen.
     
  25. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    #5575 Clint Eastwood, May 29, 2018
    Last edited: May 29, 2018
    You seem to be ignoring the fact that Pomykal, Servania, and Ferreira (not yet a US citizen, but close) all had surgery at the start of this season. Knee, Compartment Syndrome, and Hernia respectively. Another homegrown, Kris Reaves, is also out with hernia surgery. Bryan Reynolds is only 16 and really raw. Even a cursory viewing of the team at the Dallas Cup would allow everybody to see he's not ready. That leaves their new homegrown Chris Richards, who isn't actually eligible to play for them until next season.

    So what do people want? Want them to rush Pomykal back to first team minutes? Even though he's only 18 and has now had surgery on both knees!? [Prior to the injury Paxton was in the 18 for every MLS match.] Servania and Ferreira are back and both have been loaned out for minutes to help regain match fitness. Gut feeling? Both are in the 18 for FCD's USOC game next week, and Servania will make his FCD debut.

    Also enough of this "Acosta, Gonzalez, Ulloa" are too old and we're not counting them as homegrowns anymore. A team's mission statement on building thru the academy means that there should be players across all age groups playing with the first team over time. Some will be USMNTers, some will be MLS squad rotation players, some will be reserve players. Its all good. Some will stay. Some will go. A club isn't going to stop playing homegrowns when they're 25. During FCD's peak for the 2015-2016 seasons Victor Ulloa played over 4000 minutes. Or have we forgotten that he was an important contributor on a team that finished 1st in the West two seasons in a row (with a Supporter's Shield and a USOC)? He's not chopped liver that's going to be thrown aside for the next youngster. The next youngster has to prove he's better than Victor Ulloa. None of the FCD youngsters are actually #6s, so there's that.
     

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