You make the call

Discussion in 'Referee' started by DefRef, Nov 12, 2019.

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  1. DefRef

    DefRef Member

    Jul 3, 2017
    Storrs CT
    HS GV state playoff game - good game between 2 decent teams, but below freezing, flurries, and 20 MPH wind making everyone miserable. Dual system on a turf field with multi colored lines for every possible sport.

    Visitors up 2-0 with 15 minutes to go and I'm just so happy we are not going to OT.

    Home team gets a breakaway at mid field and is flying into the wind with excellent control of ball. I am lead ref and right with her. 1 on 1 with keeper and no defender within 5 yds. Keeper comes flying out to cut off angle. Striker shoots from about the 30, on frame, and keeper makes a nice diving save. Unfortunately, she was 2 yds outside the PA at the time.

    I immediately whistle for handling and keeper is incredulous until I point to the 18 behind her. I stop the clock and am thinking this is DOGSO Red. I am the junior member of the crew and I beckon my partner to come discuss. I say I think this is RC and then he looks incredulous and says, no way, she did not know she was outside the box and it was too far from goal, give her a YC.

    I've been thinking about it ever since. I still think it should have been RC.

    Thoughts?
     
  2. bothways

    bothways Member

    Jun 27, 2009
    red card all the way. dogso-H
    and why a dual on a playoff game? is there a shortage of refs?
     
    frankieboylampard repped this.
  3. DefRef

    DefRef Member

    Jul 3, 2017
    Storrs CT
    They don't go to 3 refs until the finals. More likely a shortage of money. Pay was $108 each :D
     
  4. bothways

    bothways Member

    Jun 27, 2009
    so the question to ask yourself is, if the keeper does not save outside the penalty area- is there a good chance that the ball ends up in the net?
    also if they pay 3 of you- thats 72 bucks each!!
     
  5. DefRef

    DefRef Member

    Jul 3, 2017
    Storrs CT
    oh it was definitely going in. My first reaction was dogso RC and kicking my self that I let myself get talked out of it.

    they way they negotiated ref pay out here, all refs get paid the same V fee, regardless if 2 or 3 refs. so it center would earn same as ARs and school would be out another 108.
     
  6. mathguy ref

    mathguy ref Member

    Nov 15, 2016
    TX
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    If you are certain it was going in then the action denied an obvious goal, no?
     
  7. frankieboylampard

    Mar 7, 2016
    USA
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    Don’t let a cohort talk you down. Only let them talk you up for misconduct if you’re the referee (or in this case the lead).
    I.E. So if they’re saying caution as an AR and you’re thinking AC/ no caution. Consider maybe a yellow card and then bring in all the considerations etc
     
  8. Sport Billy

    Sport Billy Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 25, 2006
    Everything everyone is telling you is correct.

    Yet...

    Sounds like visitors are going to win.
    No way am I having a kid miss what could be their final high school game over that.

    Sorry.
     
  9. AremRed

    AremRed Member+

    Sep 23, 2013
    It’s not the ref that would cause the player to miss their final game, it’s the players actions and you know that.
     
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  10. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    The Home team has a great scoring opportunity just outside the PA. If they score--and the send off is properly given--they are down one goal with 15 minutes against 10 (and not the first string keeper). Not sending off the GK isn't a formality in a game that is over, it is a decision that severely hampers the chance the other team has for a comeback.
     
  11. Sport Billy

    Sport Billy Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 25, 2006
    I certainly do. Just pointing out some of the difficulty reffing youth matches vs. high level. We sometimes take things other than the laws into consideration. I'd have a difficult time sending someone off in this situation. But at youth levels, I always err in keeping kids on the pitch.
     
  12. BrianD

    BrianD Member

    Manchester United
    United States
    Jun 29, 2018
    I'm with most others that it has to be red even if you really don't want it to be. I'm curious how you would justify a yellow? I can't think of anything in the laws that would result in a yellow.
     
  13. mathguy ref

    mathguy ref Member

    Nov 15, 2016
    TX
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Do what the big boys in the EPL do. Swallow your whistle, wave your hands back and forth and yell out “no no no!” And just like the EPL you don’t have to worry about VAR looking over your shoulders

    Seriously though, you better be prepared to sell it and say that you had a look at the shot and could tell it wasn’t going in. 30 yards in the wind, a lot of things can happen.
     
  14. fairplayforlife

    fairplayforlife Member+

    Mar 23, 2011
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I dub the “last weeks ref”
     
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  15. fairplayforlife

    fairplayforlife Member+

    Mar 23, 2011
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    Which kids? The one the rightfully earned their marching papers or the kids that might have been able to mount a comeback and play another game, save for you ignoring an obvious send off?
     
  16. Spencedawgmillionaire

    Mar 2, 2017
    Belleville, ILLLLLLLLINOIZE
    Club:
    Saint Louis Athletica
    I sent off a kid from my AR spot, in the playoffs, a GK who was up by 4 in dying minutes, a senior, for nearly this exact, same thing. Fury? Yes. Abuse post-match? Yes. Did I feel bad for the kid? Yes, he made a stupid decision, but law is law.

    Kid missed the next match (team had no backup keeper, put a defender in with a pinney), somehow they managed to win their next match, so GK got to play again.

    I don't always like the calls I have to make, but sometimes it's out of our hands. Everything we do must be defensible.

    Bummer, I get the same way with more senior refs, but had a long talk about it with my assignor and he tells me a few things:
    "Call your game, as long as you know your rules and can explain your call, what old timer knows-it-all-but-calls-what-he-thinks-it-should-be-called-cuz-that's-how-always doesn't matter. Be the ref you believe is right."
    and
    "You can do two things; be a dick about it, or let them fix it, your choice." (This was about uniform issues on the field, always thought it was funny)
     
  17. jayhonk

    jayhonk Member+

    Oct 9, 2007
    I hate to agree with SportBilly, but I agree that in the real world, this is a difficult Red Card to give. I would guess that, even at the HS playoff level, you might expect to see it about half the time--or less. To state that: the book dictates a RC, so we must give a RC, ignores the fundamental reality of what we do: every call that we make takes our knowlege of the rules/laws and mediates them through the real events in front of us. No one would say, never send off a keeper when the game is late and already decided, or when the field markings are unclear, or when the keeper had no conscious intent, or when the keeper is 20 yards out, or when your senior partner suggests not to. But everything together, all the events of the game, the level of play, the atmosphere, the expectations, means you might give a YC instead. (And call it tactical handling.)

    In other words, to the OP, I would say, once you decide you would give this card if the exact same situation arises again, realize that the question is still open whether you would give this RC in a JV game or a mid level U14 game or a high level U11 game. At some point, you probably won't give this card.
     
  18. BrianD

    BrianD Member

    Manchester United
    United States
    Jun 29, 2018
    This doesn't address my question which was, how you would justify a yellow. Justifying a red or a no-card is easy, as is a no-call if you can reasonably claim the keeper wasn't outside the box. I'm curious how you would justify a yellow based on the laws?
     
  19. djmtxref

    djmtxref Member

    Apr 8, 2013
    You want to sell the yellow? It's a windy day. Who knows where that ball would go, since it was wide of the goal to start with. Deliberately handled ball to break up the play. UB. Let's move on.

    I'm in the "give the red" category. If you think it was DOGSO I don't think you have a choice.
     
  20. Ickshter

    Ickshter Member

    Manchester City
    Mar 14, 2014
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I was a coach WAY back in the day. I had a group of boys that were u12 at the time my oldest who is 25 now was on the team. We were undefeated all season and playing in the championship match. The head of the league we were playing in had already engraved our names on the championship trophies before the match. He said after it was because of our record no matter what we were still the champs but whatever. Had the worst game of our season in the first half, we were down 4-0 after the 1st half. We were down 4-2 with 10 minutes to play. We tied it up with under 2 minutes to play, and won in OT.

    There are never any "Clearly one team is going to win" in a 2-0 match with 15 minutes left. As an official we need to call what we see and not worry about "what this does for the ONE kid" I am sure that if that girl from the OTHER team would've had the opportunity to score that equalizer in the last 5 minutes, the joy on her face would make up for the anguish on the other girls face after the RC. I still remember the look on my players face when he scored that 4th goal with under 2 minutes to play.

    So I say. RC the DOGSO and see what happens.
     
  21. Val1

    Val1 Member+

    Arsenal
    Mar 12, 2004
    MD's Eastern Shore
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Free kick. No card.

    The laws of the game are written with a very specific set of field markings, so there should be no doubt. But I have seen these multi-use fields and some of them can be damn confusing. Unless the handbook for Connecticut (I presume) high school refs specifically address multiple lines on a field, you're penalizing a player for an improper field.
     
  22. Rufusabc

    Rufusabc Member+

    May 27, 2004
    I was watching a match a couple of weeks ago in a conference semi final. Dying seconds of the match 2-0 lead. Ball is played over the top and the girl who scored both goals is running on to it, ‘keeper comes out and absolutely clocks the attacker. The ball is yards from the ‘keeper when this occurs. Clocked as in punches the attacker in the head. The referee and AR 1 both tell the assignor later that they deemed the game to be over so they made no call. If the deserved red card was handed out (2nd of the year for the ‘keeper) she would have been ineligible for state tournament.

    make the call.
     
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  23. SCV-Ref

    SCV-Ref Member

    Spurs
    Australia
    Feb 22, 2018
    Well if it was as described above, she shouldn't be playing.
    RED.
     
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  24. bothways

    bothways Member

    Jun 27, 2009
    similar situation. I was AR2 for an MRL game in muscatine iowa. U14 boys. 20 minutes into the game, a defender makes a save on the line with his hands(think suarez from the world cup) tweet. easy red. Omg, the parents were livid. We drove several hours to be here. How can you do that at a game this level. etc. Eventually their anger dissipated, or I tuned them out. The coach was cranky about it too. Talked to him later after the game. he basically said he agreed with the call,. but was being kinda pissy, in order to put on a a show for the parents.
    The point of the story is sometimes we make calls that piss people off, but they did the wrong thing, not us. So they shouldnt put that on us.
     
  25. fairplayforlife

    fairplayforlife Member+

    Mar 23, 2011
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You gotta be kidding me with that excuse.
     

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