You Get What You Pay For

Discussion in 'New England Revolution' started by Kenp, Oct 16, 2017.

  1. Kenp

    Kenp BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 17, 1999
    Massachusetts
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    I’m usually a glass half empty guy, so what I’m about to say goes against my nature.

    I think the Revs performed about as well as expected this year, based on some rough Soccernomics type analysis. I do subscribe to the theory that the best single predictor of league position is player wages, and at the beginning of the year, New England wage position was 9th in the Eastern Division. Their current league standing, 7th, suggests a slight over-achievement. Yes, their team salary went up during the year from ~5.8m to ~6.9m, which lifts them 6th in the Eastern Division in wages. But they still performed about as expected.

    The top two MLS clubs in wages are one and two in the Eastern Division standings.

    Never a fan of Heaps as a coach- especially early on when his naivete and romantic wish-thinking game day decisions were so evident. But I do respect his enthusiasm and passion for the club, and his desire to succeed- it never wavered. And for the most part, the players did seem to want to play for him. Given his resources, his results weren’t terrible.

    So it all comes down to Kraft and his vision/commitment to the club.

    The recent article in ESPN about Kraft being “intrigued by EPL”, is very revealing. He admits he doesn’t understand the sporting/business model, and is reluctant to get involved. At his age, who would blame him?

    Kraft more or less confirms the issues faced by all American owners of EPL teams cited in a recent NYT article- the mistakes they make in outsourcing control to EPL people, the unfamiliar player acquisition model, and not understanding how to compete against teams run by nation-state clubs and oligarch criminals (my characterization, of course).

    Is it too much to believe Kraft is also uncomfortable with the unusual business model of MLS, and is reluctant to make the kinds of Toronto/NYFC-sized investments in his own club?

    It seems to me that Kraft has focused on controlling costs, improving the fan experience, and with providing game day value. Compared to attending Red Sox or Patriots games, the Revolution and MLS is a bargain.

    Reasonably priced tickets (what major sports league offers DISCOUNTED season tickets?), free parking, preferred parking locations for STH, generous ticket exchange programs, tail-gating, free busses to NY for the playoffs a few years ago, etc. (OK, the alcohol prices are ridiculous, but a little self-control goes a long way.) Who is to say Kraft isn’t, from his perspective, trying to do the right thing?

    So, while a new manager will invariably raise my hopes, they will be tempered by knowing that any true change will have to come from the top.

    The half empty me says it ain’t going to happen.
     
  2. ToMhIlL

    ToMhIlL Member+

    Feb 18, 1999
    Boxborough, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I dunno, I've always made the argument that they should have done better with the talent they have, and "should" be about where Columbus and NYRB are, second tier playoff teams, but at least in the playoffs. I've ranted about this before, and maybe with a coach not named Heaps they might play up to their potential next year.

    I see only somewhat of a correlation between spending and results. The Revs do spend at a middle level and have a few higher paid players, but it's more about getting good value from the guys you have, regardles of what they cost. If Kamara scored 20 goals like he did previously, the consensus would probably be that he's well worth the $$. If not, he's an overpaid bum.
    Yeah, ain't that the truth! He could make the commitment to bringing this team out of the 1990s if he wanted to. Not to be among the top 3-4 spending teams, but just to sink money into the academy, set up a real reserve team (in Providence?), and a bunch of other things that most of the league is already doing. He could, but so far, he hasn't.
    Sure, but it wouldn't be that different from a baseball owner competing against the big money teams like the Yankees, Red Sox, Cubs, Dodgers, etc. A lot of US owners like the "socialist" model of a salary cap league, where you can't just out-spend everyone to buy a championship, unlike "socialist" Europe, where the sports structure is a lot more "capitalist." Aston Villa aren't going to demad a new (publicly funded) stadium, or they are going to move to London!

    Yes, he is. And that's teh problem. The league has evolved. This isn't 1997, where Sunil Gulati is going to dole out allocations and give you a top player that you are too inept to sign yourself.

    Yes, the Revs are definitely a bargain compared with other sports and entertainment options. That is one of the things they got right, but it wasn't without hiccups. Remember when it cost more to park than the cheapest Fort ticket?

    But the Pawtucket Red Sox, Wista Sharks (are they still around?) P-Bruins, Manchester Monarchs, Lowell Spinners, etc. are also a bargain compared with their major league counterparts. Right now, the Revs' perception in the local market is more like those teams than the Pats, Bruins, Celtics and Red Sox, or even BC football/basketball and college hockey.
    Yeah, I am hoping for the best, but deep down, I don't expect anything to change significantly. We may get a decent (but not "name") coach, sign a good player, make a trade or two, and see the team improve, but the State of the Revs will be more or less stagnant.
     
  3. NFLPatriot

    NFLPatriot Member+

    Jun 25, 2002
    Foxboro, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    After the 2014-15 season the San Jose Sharks relocated their AHL affiliate closer to home. They are now the San Jose Barracuda.
     
  4. Brian in Boston

    Brian in Boston Member+

    Jun 17, 2004
    MA & CA, USA
    Worcester's new minor-league ice hockey team is the Worcester Railers HC. They play in the ECHL, a step below the American Hockey League. They drew a crowd of 12,135 fans to their debut at the DCU Center this past Saturday night.

    http://railershc.com
     
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  5. dcochran

    dcochran Member+

    Feb 17, 1999
    Vero Beach, FL
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Sadly, I think Kraft understands the MLS business model only too well. He has an investment whose return on equity is excellent based on the increasing price of franchises. He sees other owners bumping their expenses by bringing in expensive DP’s and knows that their expense is helping the value of his investment without costing him a dime. His pricing and customer service model have created a positive cash flow so his investment is even positive on an operating basis. As long as the Revs play in Foxboro he doesn’t believe he will be getting 40-50K attendance so there’s not really any reason to bust his personnel budget and risk his current positive operations.

    The only way we are going to see a real change is for the Krafts to sell to someone interested in, you know, “the product”. Not much likelihood of that happening until expansion slows or franchise value flattens.
     
  6. RevsLiverpool

    RevsLiverpool Member+

    Nov 12, 2005
    Boston
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Amazing what smart, committed ownership will do. But I digress
     
  7. Argyle

    Argyle Member

    Jan 31, 2002
    Plymouth, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    A minor league hockey team half-filled an arena on opening night.

    Impressive.
     
  8. ToMhIlL

    ToMhIlL Member+

    Feb 18, 1999
    Boxborough, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I dunno how many people the Centrum holds, but 12,000+ is definitely more than half-full. In fact, I would have thought that the place held less than 10,000, so it would be more than capacity.

    Anyway, while it's good that the pricing structure for the Revs is more aligned with the area minor league teams in that you don't have to take out a second mortgage for a family of 4 to go to a game, the unfortunate thing is that a lot of other things reek of a "minor league" mentality. People who go to minor league sports don't really follow the team in terms of W-L. No one is thinking that if the PawSox can take 2 out of 3 from the Scranton-Wilkes Barre Red Robins, they will leapfrog over them into first place. They are just out for the one-off event. Much like about half of the average Revs crowd. This isn't the case in many other cities around the league.
     
  9. rkane1226

    rkane1226 Member+

    Apr 9, 2000
    Club:
    Stade Brestois 29
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    14,800 capacity
     
  10. Argyle

    Argyle Member

    Jan 31, 2002
    Plymouth, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    In which case I was wrong to be unimpressed. Though I remember it being bigger. Also, I looked, it's hockey capacity is 12,239.

    Criticism withdrawn.
     
  11. Minutemanii

    Minutemanii Member+

    Dec 29, 2005
    Abington MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
     
  12. Minutemanii

    Minutemanii Member+

    Dec 29, 2005
    Abington MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I see your point. And, it supports the notion that the business model is geared towards the casual fan and the family fun experience and promotions; sort of like the minor league model. For us passionate fans however, it sucks that winning is second in line. So, passionate fans have to ask themselves... Do I live with it? or, Should I bail on this club. This season I've seen several examples of longtime very passionate supporters not renewing.
    It's too bad.
     
  13. RevsLiverpool

    RevsLiverpool Member+

    Nov 12, 2005
    Boston
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well, last I checked 12k out of 13k was more than 50%.
     
  14. RevsLiverpool

    RevsLiverpool Member+

    Nov 12, 2005
    Boston
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I was in that category years ago. It's really just a local outlet because I crave live soccer. If I lived closer to any of the lower division clubs near Boston/RI/CT, I'd try to make it out to some matches.
     
  15. firstshirt

    firstshirt Member+

    Bayern München
    United States
    Mar 1, 2000
    Ellington, CT / NK, RI
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I had often thought that Kraft was the issue but months ago on Twitter Ron Waxman mentioned that basically the Revs will never go anywhere with Burns as their man. I sent this to him: heard he is weak when it comes to finding, identifying and negotiating with players and that some agents avoid him. is that fair to say? To which he hearted. This was something that I had heard years ago from and agent.
    I then messaged him and asked something like Is Kraft is a stingy as they say,He basically said Kraft will pay but Burns can't deliver. Take this for what its worth but my feeling is that the big pot hole in the road that is not being fixed is Burns
     
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  16. ToMhIlL

    ToMhIlL Member+

    Feb 18, 1999
    Boxborough, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Maybe so, but if Burns is really that much of a problem and Kraft is willing to pay for higher level players, then why is Burns not only still here after all these years, but he is also instrumental in deciding who the guy is to determine who they are going to sign? I know Kraft has fired people who were in similar roles with the Patriots who weren't getting it done, so that doesn't make sense.

    Remember that list of 20 South Americans that Nicol wanted? It seems that they were turned down (assuming they were out of budget range), but if this theory holds true, then was it Burns who couldn't close the deal? That would be grounds for dismissal anywhere. Well, almost anywhere...
     
  17. firstshirt

    firstshirt Member+

    Bayern München
    United States
    Mar 1, 2000
    Ellington, CT / NK, RI
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Just throwing that out there. I think Kraft may have been an issue back when Nicol submitted that 20 player list. The league has changed a lot in 10 years. that said how many times did you hear "we almost signed a player" over the past 10 years? Several
     
  18. ToMhIlL

    ToMhIlL Member+

    Feb 18, 1999
    Boxborough, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Sure, fair point.

    But Kraft must be reasonably OK with the overall job Burns is doing. But if you miss out on one target player you "should" get, OK, sometimes that happens. Then the second time, wail, maybe some really bizarre stuff went down that no one could have predicted. Then the third time, well, just bad luck...

    So what about the 4th or 5th time he misses out? At some point, the boss-man has to say, "this isn't good enough," but instead, he trusts him with the most critical decision facing the team in years. Get this one right, you can turn things around. If you don't, the team is set back years...
     
  19. a517dogg

    a517dogg Member+

    Oct 30, 2005
    Rochester, NY
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Makes sense given the Jermaine Jones coinflip was a way to get a player without involving Burns.
     
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