There's a suggestion that Tony thinks so. http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/02/sports/soccer/02SOCC.html?pagewanted=1 It's an article discussing racism in European soccer. Here's what Tony said. The first paragraph makes it sound like he's talking about opposing fans trying to rattle him. The second sounds like it's FCN fans...because Bremen fans aren't going to boo Tony for making a bad pass and giving the ball away to their team. But then, Tony's own words make it seem like nativism, rather than racism, is motivating the fans. It's Vecsey's aside, nothing he quoted from Tony, that makes it racism. (I've always found Vecsey to be a great reporter, so I doubt that he's putting Tony's words in a context that deceives. But you can't be sure.) I found this disturbing. If Tony's wrong, and TCN fans are p***** at him for completely non-racial reasons, then he's using his race as an excuse for why the fans are on him. If he's right, then the way management is singling him out takes on a somewhat more sinister tone. Either way, it makes you wonder why Tony didn't take the WBA deal.
Seriously, it's long time ago since I last time heard monkey sounds in a pro stadium. In local games, mainly in the east, this can still be heard by single idiots, but in pro business this got daily business as there is no team without foreigners. What he is talking about the Nürnberg fans is absolute crap, nobody of the fans is thinking that he takes a job of a German player - maybe the affected player himself, but the fans care for performance and nothing else. In fact there were major protests in Germany against Bulgaria and Poland when Gerald Asamoah had to hear monkey sounds when playing for Germany in Sofia and with Schalke against either Warsaw or Krakow. Fans demanded to avoid playing in Bulgaria in the future, but they apologised very soon and so it's history.
Does this include games against Bayern Munich? Seriously though, Olaf's right. I've been to a number of Bundesliga stadiums and I've never seen anything resembling racism.
If you are interested and familiar with Germany History, you will notice that Nurmberg for centuries played an important role on German Nationalism, especially culturaly, unfortunately racism towarder outsiders was part of that movement. I would not be surprised that there is still some of that bad feeling toward "outsiders".
Hey there, Alice, unless you have been to Nuremberg and know what you are talking about (which you clearly have not and do not) you should refrain from making uninformed and accusatory posts such as the above. Thank you for your cooperation.
Why do you think that racism and nativism are mutually exclusive forces? This is especially true in Germany, which prior to recent reforms had long tied nationality almost exclusively to blood.
Re: Re: Yes, another Sanneh thread...are the Nurnberg fans racist? Why do you think that I think that they are?
Seen it in Spain. I know this thread is on German fans' potential behavior, however I was at an Espanyol game in La Liga and the fans gave the ape 'hoots' to a black opposing player warming up on the sideline. Pathetic.
Espanyol is well known for racist fans. Not only the fanatic element but grandpa and grandma too. Or so I've heard on many occasions.
still around Sad, but this stuff (not the monkey noises, but other stuff) happens all the time. See this link: http://www.observer.co.uk/race/0,11255,603728,00.html The link's to a general report (collection of articles) about race in Britain, but halfway down or so there's a number of links to articles about racism in British football, including a number of fan testimonials to its continued existence. Oh, and Mattbro, some Bavarians can be intensely nationalistic. I'm going to mangle this anecdote, but they once asked a famous German player (from Bavaria) if he ever thought about playing abroad. He replied that he had -- he'd played for a team in Saxony.
Re: still around ] cheers for the link to that left wing rag... if they say something it must be true...
Re: Re: still around You know, I knew you'd post something about that. Whenever there's a whole lotta ridiculous nationalist (and vaguely bigotted) ranting to be gone sinner_ronald_monk isn't far away...
Re: Re: still around do you have a club team sinner? how many grounds have you been to? are you really more qualified to tell us what conditions are like than a reporter, even for a left-wing rag? again, do you have any football opinions or do you just save them up for the premiership forum?
Re: still around Don't want to disappoint you, but it's a common old joke in Germany that Bavarians consider themselves to be a state of its own and see every other state even in Germany as a foreign nation. That refers to the history of Bavaria and Prussia, but besides that I don't see a racist incident in this, I can't imagine that this was a serious comment - as I said, you still hear it once in a while as joke.
Re: Re: still around Just like in Hamburg, you would occassionally hear people say "everything south of the Elbe is Bavaria"... I don't think most fans boo players just because they are foreign. Afterall, for quite a few years in the early to mid 1990's Steffan Effenberg was the object of whistles in most German stadiums and many stadiums around Europe. Of course, he was from Hamburg and played in Bavaria...
Do the Nurembergers even consider themselves Bavarian? I would think they consider themselves to be more Franconian than anything else, which would completely negate the point about Bavaria and nationalism. In any case, it's one thing to be mildly nationalistic - like the Bavarians - and quite another to be racist. I haven't seen any evidence that Germans are more racist than anyone else, and I lived there for quite a while.
Racism exists everywhere. If Tony Sanneh says he heard monkey sounds, he probably did. Doesn't mean that it is common, but also doesn't mean that he's lying. The only way it will go away is if people don't tolerate it. I'm sure Olafgb and Mattbro are correct that it is uncommon. Best thing for Tony to do is ignore it. Best thing for other people in the stands to do is to ask the perpetrators if they "rent or own their mobile home." (American joke) Also, I've heard that Bavaria is the "Texas of Germany".
I guess I wouldn't be totally shocked to hear that Tony heard the monkey sounds while playing in Rostock or Cottbus. If he heard them while playing against Bayern Munich, then they were directed at Oli Kahn.
My wife is from Kenya, and her sister worked in Germany for many years promoting tourism to Kenya. When my wife and I went to Kenya, we stayed overnight in Zurich, where there's a reasonably large Kenyan population. Once, I asked my wife and sister-in-law (she was visiting) if there were many Kenyans in Germany. The response was no, not like in Britain or Switzerland or other places. I asked why, and the answer was, because of the racism. FWIW.
Admittedly, I’m pretty good at blending in, so I myself wouldn’t be the target of racism. Maybe I’m not the best person to judge. But didn’t Kenya used to be a British colony? I would guess that if there are more Kenyans in England or Switzerland, it’s because it’s easier for them to get residence or work permits. Attacks against foreigners are extremely rare in Germany (the exception being some parts of eastern Germany) – much less frequent than in France or England I would guess, so I can’t believe "foreigners" would avoid Germany because they are frightened of racism.
Well, my sister-in-law worked there for several years, and is fluent in German. Mattbro...I hope this question isn't offensive in the current context, but how dark are you? Are you American? Kenyans are pretty dark, so my s-i-l's experience might have been different either because a) she's dark or b) she's African African, not African-American. Or maybe her perceptions were inaccurate.
That's okay, I have no reason to be offended by that question: I'm as white as a sheet, speak German fluently and dress like the locals, so it's true that if there is racism, it would not be directed towards me. I still find it hard to believe that people in Switzerland would behave any differently from people in Germany in terms of the way they view foreigners. Indeed, I seem to remember hearing that it is VERY difficult for foreigners living in Switzerland to ever get citizenship, and thus they have very little representation there. I would think that if anything, Germans would be more tolerant of foreigners due to their historically induced guilt complex. I have lived in Germany, currently live in Austria and have spent time in Switzerland, and I don't really believe there is any major difference between the way foreigners are viewed in the three countries, or indeed much of the rest of Europe. Like MarioKempes says, racism exists everywhere. But if I were dark-skinned and concerned about racism, I would rather live in Germany than anywhere else in Europe.
Re: Re: Re: Yes, another Sanneh thread...are the Nurnberg fans racist? Are you honestly asking this question? Because you implied that Tony might possibly be "using his his race as an excuse" in Nuremberg, where, as you claim, "Tony's own words make it seem like nativism, rather than racism, is motivating the fans," as if racism and nativism in Germany were not inexctricably linked. Which they are.
Dude, what? This is not 1939. Several generations of Germans have grown up in a democratic and tolerant society since the war. So I have to take issue with your statement. Unless I completely misunderstood your point, in which case never mind.