Yanks Abroad Flavors of the Week 2018-19

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by TheFalseNine, Aug 3, 2018.

  1. xbhaskarx

    xbhaskarx Member+

    Feb 13, 2010
    NorCal
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  2. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    SJ Earthquakes/Arsenal
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Pleasanton, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #1077 gunnerfan7, Feb 27, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2019
    Not advocating for Morales over TA/WM.

    You responded to a post that said Morales was 3rd to 7th on a "36-man pool" of top USMNT players. You made a list of guys presumably better or going to be better than him in the coming years, implying that Morales would be pushed out of the pool by those guys.

    I'm saying, "probably not".

    Bundesliga talent remains rare. And most of those guys listed are decent MLS guys with limited ceilings or youth players with uncertain futures.

    Yeah, you didn't list off every YNT talent, but things change, and most won't reach Morales' Bundesliga level, or equivalent.
     
  3. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    SJ Earthquakes/Arsenal
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Pleasanton, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #1078 gunnerfan7, Feb 27, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2019
    People aren't arguing against MB chiefly because of age (31).

    They are against MB mainly because of his poor play. They also don't like his association with failure. Nor his "leadership". And they think he's been over-used historically, which breeds resentment towards his continued use.

    People were talking about wanting Bedoya at Camp Cupcake for veteran presence, a guy who is the same age as MB.

    It's not the age that's the issue, it's the player.

    *For the record, Morales has more minutes than CP or Wood. Was brought in by a Bundesliga team expected to struggle (no free spots for depth bench guys, particularly not those who play in half the games), and has already been in the Bundesliga as a starter for 2 years. Fringe seems rather harsh.
     
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  4. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    I judge by current play not by past or unseen future play.

    Morales has been a major league player for several years - that’s quite different from Holmes who hasn’t really earned steady Big 4 playing.

    Do I think that Morales, FJ etc will be playing in Qatar? I think that their form will likely regress by then and they’ll have likely moved to the minor leagues all while others will have surpassed them. When that happens, pull them out of the USMNT pool. That’s not where we are now.
     
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  5. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    I have nothing against Morales. But he is fringe Bundesliga talent. He has never played for a team that wasn't relegation fodder. His team last year, is about to get relegated out of the 2.Bund. His team this year is so poor, an all time bad season for Schalke still has them clear of the relegation zone. Can you really say F-D is that much better than any of the top 2.Bund teams?

    And Bundesliga talent is becoming increasingly not rare. If Mendez breaks through at Freiberg, he is instantly ahead of Morales correct? I've seen Mendez play and he is someone that should be getting integrated and cap tied, not watching 29 year old Morales play in Concacaf Nations League games.

    Kevin Lankford is a 20 year old American midfielder on a 2.Bund team seriously capable of being promoted this season. Wouldn't he then vault over Morales who will be 29? Green is 5 years younger than Morales and a CM and basically at the same level of team.

    I didn't even list Lankford before. That is how many guys we have coming. We don't need road blocks for them named Bradley or Trapp or Morales.

    It is a shame Morales wasn't more involved before but in all honesty, he had a serious flaw in his game that didn't translate to international soccer. If he has fixed that now, than great for him, he will probably be sold to Hamburg and stay in the Bundesliga. But I cannot see wasting minutes on him over younger players with incredibly higher upside.
     
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  6. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    This is how it happened last time. Jones was getting older, his club career was regressing. He started the cycle in the Bundesliga and at the end he was retired. Bradley started the cycle just leaving Serie A. These guys were inked in and when it came to crunch time in the Hex, they had lost it. But there was nobody else with "experience". One of the guys many of you argued for at that time was Morales.

    Do you not see that the mistake would be repeating? This is the time to play the young players so they are "experienced" when it counts. You can't play older guys and then drop them for the Hex. I mean you could, but no coach works that way. And you need more than a token Kellyn Acosta because what if that player turns out to be not that great? You play TA and WM, but you have to give reps to lots of other players because injuries, schedules, life gets in the way.

    Then there is the reality that many of the guys you will be ignoring are dual nationals that could play for Mexico. Many of you on here bemoaning Morales being sat for Mendez or Ledezma are the same that, rightfully, killed USSF for losing JoGo. Is giving Morales a single minute worth it if we lose Mendez?

    Incredibly short sighted.

    Oh, and saying Bradley is not an "age problem" but a form problem is ignoring that the two go together.
     
  7. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    SJ Earthquakes/Arsenal
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Pleasanton, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think we are talking about "the pool" in different contexts.

    My pool context: "Who are the top 30-something guys in the pool?" Morales is there right now. Most of the guys you listed are not. Morales might be there in 2022. If he stays in the Bundesliga, it's more likely than if he drops into the 2.Bundesliga.

    Your pool context: "Who should we cap tie or play right now looking forward to 2022?" Plenty of dual-nats to cap: Dest, Mendez, Llanez, Ferreira, Ledezma, Siebatcheu, etc. Plenty of guys that need to play: Adams, McKennie, Sargent, Weah, Nova, etc.

    You are unfairly and incorrectly putting Morales in the same vein as Michael Bradley and Wil Trapp, who are not in the top 30-something players in the pool, and who have played many games for the team. In fact, Morales is one of the many players that MB and Trapp have inexplicably kept out of the squad.

    In addition, you are inflating the stature of fringe players like Green and Lankford (Lankford has 250 minutes for FC St. Pauli, started first 3 games and none since, and hasn't played since September, yikes) by projecting a very optimistic assessment of their future careers. Not to mention, most of the fringe guys aren't playing the position of 6 or 8 anyway, which means it'll never come down to Morales or Dest (or Lankford), but Morales or Durkin/Cannouse.
     
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  8. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    #1083 Patrick167, Feb 27, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2019
    What I'm using as the Pool is the only one that makes sense at this point in the cycle. I've already said that on this date, Morales is a Top 23 player probably. Certainly Top 30. We agree there.

    But GB has said, the goal is 2022. It is not beating Ecuador on March 21st or even winning the GC. Those games only matter for preparing for 2022. The GC is particularly important because the games are competitive and cap tying. But we won the GC in 2017 and were eliminated from the WC two months later.

    Lankford is 20. He is a long shot for 2022, no doubt. But he could be in the Bundesliga getting 1000 minutes next year for St. Pauli. I'm not that familiar with him. Was using him as an example of a guy nobody is talking about and could be exactly where Morales is now. Looks like he was playing for Heidenheim, got hurt, never got his spot back but was bought by a bigger club, and worked his way onto the first team this past game day. Who knows. The point is there is a wave of young players, especially CMs, in Germany, MLS, and England and a couple in the Low Countries that will need minutes to see if they are ready for 2022. Veterans, according to GB, are solely being called in if they can help the new guys with the transition and culture. I doubt Morales has enough NT experience to fit that bill. He should have, no doubt.

    I don't care that Morales plays 6 and most of the guys I list play 8 or 10. Adams is clearly our best 6. I refuse to play along with this Adams as a RB nonsense. So, if Adams is clearly our best 6, I need someone in the 8/10 role besides McKennie. That isn't Morales. Holmes, Mendez, LLetjet, Djorde, all are more interesting. Again, playing Morales (or Bradley or Trapp) moves Adams off his best spot which is not productive.
     
  9. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    Having gone on for post after post about how dumb it is to waste time with Bradley or Morales (or Bedoya). If GB called him in; I'd be happy for him. But it would be a head scratcher, but GB has done some head scratching things so far.
     
  10. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    #1085 IndividualEleven, Feb 27, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2019
    If the goal is 2022 then there are plenty of caps to go around. Bringing in Morales to gauge his level shouldn't be contentious.
     
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  11. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    Post WC, and post B1, Jermaine Jones was brilliant in the 2016 Copa. Serious injuries, not club career lead to his subsequent demise.

    Bradley was already on the decline when still in Serie A. The foot injuries saw to this.
     
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  12. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    SJ Earthquakes/Arsenal
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Pleasanton, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Beating Ecuador is one thing. Beating Mexico in the Gold Cup is another. Making sure that we have depth in case TA/WM get hurt is something else too.

    We should spend as much time as is reasonable to groom TA and WM with the starters.

    But, when we look at the rest of the potential backups, If we never look at Morales because we spent time capping random MLS guys and anyone under 20 (despite having YNT competitions to blood them in that older players don't have), and the handful of guys that we try don't work out to be better than him, then we're stuck with a sub-optimal squad. Playing Morales is not the opportunity cost of every single other alternative player with a later birthdate, but a small handful of backups that play his position/role within the team, whatever that is exactly in GGG's system.

    I think we're pretty much in agreement for the most part, but I don't think we're going to agree on this kind of edge case. I don't think we need to keep talking about it. We'll see what happens.
     
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  13. tomásbernal

    tomásbernal Member+

    Sep 4, 2007
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I just want to say thanks to everyone who's been posting in this thread lately. It's been informative and interesting, with many good points made. And, at least in recent pages, there's been no shit-slinging and f-yous. Truly worthy of praise on BS. Keep it up!
     
  14. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    I would like to apologize to the thread and Fortuna Dusseldorf who I think I conflated with Hannover in my head. F-D is actually well out of the relegation zone.

    Gregg seeming to do 10X more P.R. on his German trip than he does here. But Maybe he is just going to be out there talking this much. He was interviewed by the Werder Bremen website of all places yesterday. Wonder if we will get GB on every media outlet in this country between roster release, 3/12 and the first game, 3/21. Give us something to talk about certainly as we have wrung every drop out of Morales haha.

    Also, do we take anything away from the fact GB is in Germany for the second time but there doesn't seem to be any plans to go to England and see the second greatest concentration of YAs in the Championship? Has he ever met with Yedlin, is that a sign Yedlin is really completely out of the picture for Adams to be out of position?

    JK thought little of the Championship and was prejudiced against players that played there like Williams and Lichaj. Is it possible GB follows that example and we don't see Robinson, CCV, Miazga, Holmes?
     
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  15. truefan420

    truefan420 Member+

    May 30, 2010
    oakland
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Wouldn’t be shocked if he took the Bruce stance. We have MLS guys.
     
  16. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    A truly dumb stance. Bruce's ego wouldn't let him think he was successful in a substandard league, so he equated the MLS with the EPL and therefore thought all MLS players interchangeable with any other players. So, why bother. Unbelievable looking back on it. Many agreed too actually. Maybe still do. Couva and Pulisic kind of changed it though, I hope.

    GB was a guy that was playing college ball and left early. He didn't think he could get better anymore in college soccer and left for Scandinavia (I believe). That was a pretty crazy thing to do at the time. So, I do think GB understands players have to play with and against better players to get better. And I've never seen a quote from him that hints he thinks MLS is somewhere between the Bundesliga and La Liga...
     
  17. truefan420

    truefan420 Member+

    May 30, 2010
    oakland
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Should have clarified, was specifically highlighting the Chanpionship not Bruce’s full MLS over every other league stance.
     
  18. largegarlic

    largegarlic Member+

    Jul 2, 2007
    I haven't watched Morales religiously in his stints with Ingolstadt and Dusseldorf, but the games I have seen, I've never come away thinking, "Wow! This guy needs to be called in ASAP!" It's more, "Oh right, Morales is playing. I guess he's not the worst guy in his team's starting 11, which is generally getting overrun." I put him in the category with guys like Ream, Wood, and Williams--good 2nd division players, who look OK with bottom dwellers in the top flight. Guys in this category have made contributions to the USMNT at times, but don't really made the needle in a serious way.

    So, I'm OK with Morales getting a look, and I'm hoping the March friendlies are a chance to look at fringy Euro guys like him, Gall, Holmes, etc., but I also don't think it's some huge travesty that he hasn't been called up lately.
     
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  19. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    SJ Earthquakes/Arsenal
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Pleasanton, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't think anyone would think it's a tragedy that he hasn't been called up yet. But it would be absurd to suggest he's out of the pool when we have such a dearth of high-level CM/CDM talent behind TA and WM.

    This is assuming that MB/WT aren't getting shoe-horned into the lineup.
     
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  20. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This is just not true. Where do you get this stuff?

    Klinsmann called up and gave minutes to Williams, Lichaj, and Ream all while they were in the Championship.

    Much like Morales, those championship players were guys who were 5, 6, or 7 on an extended 36 pool roster depth chart. Well Lichaj was at best a 7.
     
  21. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What do you think when you see Trapp playing? Trapp has been a lock starter over the last year+.
     
  22. yurch10

    yurch10 Member

    Feb 13, 2004
    Or MB getting repeatedly called in, despite getting run over by a Panamanian club side, rather than Bundesliga teams?

    Like above, it's not that anyone thinks Morales deserves a starting spot. Only that he's a clear upgrade over two guys (MB/WT) who have...been given starting spots...
     
  23. tomásbernal

    tomásbernal Member+

    Sep 4, 2007
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Not to say morales shouldn't get a call up to find out, but it's very disputable that he's a clear upgrade over MB or WT.
     
  24. RalleeMonkey

    RalleeMonkey Member+

    Aug 30, 2004
    here
    It's way too early to tell. Though, that would be a tough ice cube for his bosses to swallow: Other federations' 2nd divisions have better players than MLS.
     
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  25. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    I sometimes almost hesitate to even say certain things about certain people even in passing...haha

    I believe Williams has said that JK didn't want him to go to Reading and that he knew that was why he stopped getting called. Lichaj was constantly talked of as someone being ignored. Ream was called a few times certainly.

    If that is all hearsay, sorry.
     

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