Yanks Abroad Flavors of the Week 2017-18 [all R's]

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by Dr. Gamera, Jul 27, 2017.

  1. Dr. Gamera

    Dr. Gamera Member+

    Oct 13, 2005
    Wheaton, Maryland
    Slightly late, as some Yanks are already abroad for the new season. Nevertheless, here we go.
     
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  2. COMtnGuy

    COMtnGuy Member+

    Apr 5, 2012
    Higher than you
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I for sure think he could help USMNT but it's a stretch that a 22 year old who had zero transfer interest from Bayern would have much chance at making the Die Mannschaft
     
  3. ChuckMe92

    ChuckMe92 Member+

    Jun 23, 2016
    Columbus, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
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  4. Pegasus

    Pegasus Member+

    Apr 20, 1999
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Europe is such a complex mire for players. You can start for Hoffenheim but if they want to cash in before your contract is over you might go Spurs or Bayern where you will now be a backup forever. Of course to progress that's the path to take. US leagues with their parity can't afford to stockpile all the good players so all the good ares playing somewhere.
     
  5. TxEx

    TxEx Member+

    Tottenham Hotspur, Crystal Palace, FC Dallas
    Aug 19, 2016
    DFW
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    If he goes to Spurs he'll rotate at worst. Pochettino loves wingbacks who are willing runners on offense and defense. With Spurs basically playing twice a week he'll rotate so one is playing Champions League and the other the EPL. He'll get at least 25+ starts if he moves.

    I have no idea about BM's depth at FB but if Toljan is looking for a stepping stone with Champion's League games and a coach with an excellent history of developing fullbacks to their potential, going to Spurs should be his choice. Money and prestige takes him to BM.
     
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  6. sXeWesley

    sXeWesley Member+

    Jun 18, 2007
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Agreed, the prestige and German factor with Bayern, not to mention $$$ is hard to beat. Spurs on the other hand is the absolute best environment for a young FB wanting to go to the top level, Rose and Walker went from average to world class under Poch. They idea from that article that Trippier or Walker-Peters would be hard to beat out for playing time is inaccurate. Trippier is good not great and KWP will be slowly worked in like Poch has done with CCV, Winks, etc,

    Anyway I don't think any of this is good news for us getting Toljan anytime soon, I am sure he has a dream of playing for his national team and unlike all of us, he has a legit, realistic shot of actually making that happen. Maybe we could get him with JK promising a WC spot, but Bruce ain't going to do that.
     
  7. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Fine.............................


    I detest Chelsea's concept of a "loan army." Why would any youngster sign for Chelsea? Well, the money I guess.
     
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  8. TxEx

    TxEx Member+

    Tottenham Hotspur, Crystal Palace, FC Dallas
    Aug 19, 2016
    DFW
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Who else was going to pay Red Bulls 4.6m for Miazga? I get that people don't like the loan aspect because so many things need to go right for it to work out for the players but the number of teams throwing out that kind of money for basically unproven MLS players is limited. Miazga isn't the player he is today without Chelsea and Vitesse.

    It's going to take success of guys like Miazga, Yedlin, EPB, Acosta, Zimmerman, Larin, etc for teams to be convinced they'll get their money's worth buying MLS guys. It's why every team in the BL is raiding those 16-18 year old kids so they don't have to pay a fee or waste time dealing with MLS.

    If MLS could get out of it's own way by making the money for foreign transfers completely available to teams and not just domestic ones, then real progress will start to be made as teams like FCD, Red Bulls, Philly, SKC, and Orlando City start to sell their stars.

    Since the USSF is paying Klinsmann all this money they should make him watch game tape of all the youngsters excelling in MLS and use his contacts in Europe to get them trials and to splash the cash occasionally to buy our future stars. Improve MLS by making it a sought after breeding ground of young cheap talent without having to deal with all the nonsense of third party ownership and graft that's so prevalent in SA. If the cash starts flowing into the US more teams will be on board with playing youngsters and the quality of our player pool will increase dramatically.
     
  9. ChuckMe92

    ChuckMe92 Member+

    Jun 23, 2016
    Columbus, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Perhaps the most interesting YA right now is '96 Shaq Moore, who is with newly promoted La Liga side Levante. Things could very well change, but due to an injury to Pedro Lopez Munoz and a head-scratching loan of Ruben Garcia, he is at the moment their second-string right back and their second-string right winger, and appears a pretty good bet to make their opening-day La Liga squad.
     
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  10. largegarlic

    largegarlic Member+

    Jul 2, 2007
    I agree with part of this. I didn't like the Chelsea move initially for exactly the reasons Clint Eastwood laid out, but I've come around on it, since it seems like Miazga is actually in a situation to improve at Vitesse, and if he does well there again, he'll probably get a chance to go somewhere else higher up the ladder. But Vitesse, or some other club at their level, would never have paid $4-5 million for a young MLS player; only clubs with money to burn like Chelsea do that. So, he likely doesn't get this opportunity if not for Chelsea.

    On the other hand, I disagree that MLS should strive to be more of a selling league. It might be in the immediate interests of the USMNT for it to do so, but if the league is concerned with raising its level of play and getting more media attention, it needs to be keeping as many promising young players as possible. The Dutch league was a lot better in the mid-90s (the Ajax team of that era was one my all-time favorites to watch) than it is now that it's become almost exclusively a selling league.

    I think things will continue to go in the direction they have been. MLS will gradually keep upping the ante in terms of what are acceptable transfer fees, and it really will just be the top level talent leaving to go to top Euro teams.
     
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  11. TxEx

    TxEx Member+

    Tottenham Hotspur, Crystal Palace, FC Dallas
    Aug 19, 2016
    DFW
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    IMO, being a selling league teams will invest more in youth infrastructure and even more importantly on youth coaching. FCD is the poster child of that. 500k here, 1m there, 3.6 million for Castillo...it adds up and finally they're moving toward having a USL team so their elite U-18s are playing at an appropriate level.

    But on the topic of advancing MLS as a whole I think that will come more organically as more non-MLS DA teams develop players that get poached, more internal DA teams develop, USL expands, college seasons lengthens, and most importantly youth coaching improves. That's the holy grail, better youth coaching and competition, at younger ages so kids can test themselves and improve.

    Pulisic isn't Pulisic if he joins Philly and is toiling away in the MLS. Obviously so many factors played into his meteoric rise but I'd argue he never achieves his ultimate ceiling, especially so young if he doesn't go abroad and by him leaving and excelling someone else like Adams gets his shot in MLS.

    We're a country of 330 million people whose domestic league is improving all the time because everything below it is improving. If our top 1% go abroad that's okay. Our player pool isn't nearly so limited like the Netherlands or Uruguay. It's not going to happen overnight and god knows more ownership groups need to buy into developing Americans but our nation will figure it out as long as there's an avenue where they can see money to be made. Tack a sell on fee to every sale so you can live with smaller initial sales amounts, and kids can see a clear path to making their soccer dreams come true at the best level anywhere they can actually reach.
     
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  12. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    #12 IndividualEleven, Jul 28, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2017
    Howard made it to Manu, after playing in MLS. Onyewu, after playing college ball, eventually worked his way to AC Milan. Deuce, after college and MLS, worked his way to Spurs. Reyna played college ball before eventually ending up Man City. Yedlin, after MLS, is with Newcastle.
     
  13. ussoccer97531

    ussoccer97531 Member+

    Oct 12, 2012
    Club:
    --other--
    I don't like the idea of another season at Vitesse for Miazga. He already did very well at that level last season, once he got regular playing time. Should try being a starter in a big league this season.
     
  14. Footsatt

    Footsatt Member+

    Apr 8, 2008
    Michigan
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    At least he has Europa League this season.
     
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  15. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    My dislike is more about how much I dislike Chelsea's concept of a loan army, not anything to do with MLS. Last year Chelsea had over 30 players out on loan. So they just buy up young players from around the world and very, very few end up playing for Chelsea's first team.

    They already have 22 players out on loan for this season with more on the way out the door. More than two extra teams worth of players! That includes a whole bunch of other defenders. Tomas Kalas is instructive. He was a highly coveted Czech youth international when he moved to Chelsea in 2010. He's just been loaned out year after year after year now to clubs all over the world. That's what was ALWAYS going to happen to Matt. Another CB in their loan army is Jamaican international Michael Hector. He's also just been loanedd out over and over. Kurt Zouma has been loaned out.

    None of these players will play for Chelsea again. Even Zouma. If they need another CB they'll sign a big-money one like they did when they signed David Luiz instead of giving any of the CBs in their loan army a chance.

    The whole strategy makes a mockery of financial fair play.

    There's this conspiracy theory out there that Matt Miazga was simply an add-on from his agent. "Yes, I'll convince player X to move to Chelsea if you agree to buy Matt Miazga as well." Matt was so hell bent on moving to Europe that he changed agents in order to be represented by Kia Joorabchian (a vile human being). Kia has represented quite a number of the players that have ended up at Chelsea..................like Ramires. The picture below was taken of Matt and Pato (two then Kia clients) taken before they both moved to Chelsea.

    Kia Joorabchian is and was much more interested in making money than orchestrating the RIGHT MOVE for a young player.

    [​IMG]

    [Matt actually switched to WMG recently.]

    I mean, all we need to do is look at his Yanks Abroad page to see that most fans hated this move to Chelsea from the start. It didn't make the slightest like of sense. He'll be loaned out until his contract expires. Great.............................
     
  16. jond

    jond Member+

    Sep 28, 2010
    Club:
    Levski Sofia
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #16 jond, Jul 28, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2017
    Completely disagree.

    Players overseas hold a helluva lot of power over where they go if sold. Getting sold and large bids of a player includes contract negotiations for a new contract. If a player doesn't like the club, he and his reps just refuse any contract/wage talk, and that sees the deal shut down.

    Pulisic is not going to Spurs or anywhere else unless he wants to go and negotiates new wages and a new contract. It's nothing like MLS where Dax wakes up one morning to find out he was traded to Chi, or other American sports like the NBA.
     
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  17. jond

    jond Member+

    Sep 28, 2010
    Club:
    Levski Sofia
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #17 jond, Jul 28, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2017
    IMO that's an odd take. Back to back loans to Vitesse seems a very good situation for him. He gets games, familiarity, Europa action and got a nice step up in level of play from NYRB. And Chelsea sends a number of their players into good loan situations.

    There's far worse situations in the Prem where they just stash you in the reserves.

    I also think you're ignoring the NY/MLS factor. MLS is the 3rd party and regularly sells to the highest bidder. The highest bidder will usually be an EPL club. There was no way he'd have been sold to a Vitesse type club.

    But this is Europe, everyone's watching. Impress and you'll get offers. A quality year at Vitesse could see a move to the Bund or something similar next year. I don't get all the handwringing about this. 90% of our player pool is locked into worse situations.

    I don't agree with this take. IMO being a "selling" league has nada to do with intent. It has everything to do with quality of player development and the global market. Produce top talent and more will get sold. Talent flows upward as that's where the money is and the spending power is.
     
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  18. TxEx

    TxEx Member+

    Tottenham Hotspur, Crystal Palace, FC Dallas
    Aug 19, 2016
    DFW
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    I think of it this way. At Red Bulls Miazga only has one big money move possible, that's being sold to Chelsea as a wink, wink nod to his agent for facilitating a move for one of his other clients to the club. Then he got a late loan move that worked out at Vitesse. Now he's returning with Europa League games in store. So not only has he stepped up a level from MLS, he's improved his own play (ball playing skills) and he's got a platform to show he's capable of taking the next step in his career. Now assuming he's not terrible, next season he'll have his choice of a better loan in a different league, or asking Chelsea to sell him to a better league. Either way he gets a chance to move to a team of his choice that he would never have gotten had he stayed at MLS.

    Justen Glad is in the same position Matt was two years ago. Is anyone knocking down his door? Is anyone going to argue that Glad will improve just as much if not more next season at RSL than Miazga did last season at Vitesse(their age 21 seasons)? If Feyenoord came calling for him would RSL even consider selling him for 500k? Cause I don't think they'd pay much more and doubt RSL would be keen on selling him for that price. Heck Hoffenheim has interest in Zimmerman in part because of his cheap release clause.

    So you've got your choice, big teams with big money in youth factories buying guys out for 3+million fees, lesser teams paying 500k-1m, or players letting their contracts expire to choose their own futures, but you've got to worry about being frozen out like EPB has been or Hyndman was at Fulham. At least with Chelsea you know they'll find a loan for you rather than being buried in the reserves like Lletget was at West Ham. Kalas has gotten loan fatigue and should have told his agent to get him sold from Chelsea. At some point the player and the agent need to say enough. That's what Ake, Chalobah, Taore, etc did.

    I bet if asked Matt would say he made a fantastic move furthering his career in Europe. Chelsea opened the door for him. Who else would have at a price Red Bulls would have accepted?
     
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  19. No, wrong. The Dutch top academies ( Feyenoord, PSV, Ajax, AZ) are constantly being robbed from their talents before they reach the first team and eventually move on on a transfer fee. The believe the (for instance Dutch) academies are there to make money somehow popped up in the American soccer scene, but without any justification or proof of it. To put the numbers in, the costs of the academies of the Dutch top clubs range from 9 up to 12 million a year. Transfer fees on youth going through the whole proces hardly come near that amount. The academies are a tool to provide the first team with players of quality, not a money spinning enterprise.
    And the Dutch academies existed long before we became a selling league.
     
  20. iad_22201

    iad_22201 Member+

    Jan 2, 2009
    Washington, DC
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Eh, Hyndman wasn't "frozen out" at Fulham...
     
  21. TxEx

    TxEx Member+

    Tottenham Hotspur, Crystal Palace, FC Dallas
    Aug 19, 2016
    DFW
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    But the Dutch league faces a whole different set of circumstances that America doesn't. Euro scouts pretty much know the vast majority of top tier players in the Dutch academies by the time they're 12-14. The US by virtue of a huge ocean between them and the rest of Europe only has a few players showcased via their YNTs and occasionally a DA team going over to play in a tournament. The vast majority of our players aren't scouted till later and even then they can't head to Europe till they're 18. All Dutch players can be snapped up at 16.

    As long as they money starts flowing so these teams don't lose their investment for nothing more and more will put that money back in, in the hopes of cashing in on the next Pulisic. How much money would Crossfire and Seattle have got on Yedlin? How much would PA Classics have gotten on Pulisic when he's sold? FCD on Wes McKinnie?

    The US isn't Europe. Our soccer infrastructure and coaching is still taking shape and most teams are only beginning to focus on youth after MLS and the USSF basically forced them to. And unlike most of those Dutch academies there's a legit argument that our players would in fact be much better off going overseas for vastly better coaching, training, competition than staying in our sheltered, inferior setup. There are exceptions of course and not everyone who goes overseas will gain the magic pixie dust and become great but I doubt there's much argument that the average Dutch academy is superior to the average American one right now.
     
  22. TxEx

    TxEx Member+

    Tottenham Hotspur, Crystal Palace, FC Dallas
    Aug 19, 2016
    DFW
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Yeah he was. He was benched and barely played when he refused to re-sign his contract just before he left. Fulham wasn't happy that they couldn't sell him and had to settle on just getting training compensation for him.
     
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  23. iad_22201

    iad_22201 Member+

    Jan 2, 2009
    Washington, DC
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
     
  24. TxEx

    TxEx Member+

    Tottenham Hotspur, Crystal Palace, FC Dallas
    Aug 19, 2016
    DFW
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    He broke his collarbone in late Jan 2015 and missed out till April. Then he was with the reserves. From then on till his calf injury he only played with they U-21s. But after his injury woes Hyndman won a job. He was a solid rotation piece, a fixture on their team from December 2015 till early Feb 2016. Playing 10 of their 12 matches, starting 4. But they didn't sell him in the window and he didn't sign an extension. He got a 6' minute appearance on 2/13/16, then he didn't even make the bench for the next six weeks. He wasn't injured or in poor form, he was punished. Evidently the coach got over it because he did play in 6 of their last nine games that season but six weeks during the stretch run trying to win promotion Hyndman disappeared for non-physical reasons. He didn't even play a U-21 game till just before he rejoined the first team.

    Go back and read the Hyndman thread. I promise you, he was benched.

    https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/eme...ails/spieler/223047/wettbewerb/GB2/verein/931
     
  25. iad_22201

    iad_22201 Member+

    Jan 2, 2009
    Washington, DC
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You're reaching badly here. If you're going to make the argument that he was frozen out you'd be better off pointing out that he didn't play at all until December of 2015 after he refused to sign a new contract that summer (because that was when there was "drama" wrt him not signing a new deal, not in January 2016 window).

    The fact of the matter is that Hyndman was a 19 year old who didn't make much of an impression in his Dec/Jan appearances for Fulham and the manager turned to other, more experienced players for their relegation fight.
     

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