WWC19 USA v SPAIN Round of 16, pre/pbp/post

Discussion in 'USA Women: News and Analysis' started by McSkillz, Jun 20, 2019.

  1. taosjohn

    taosjohn Member+

    Dec 23, 2004
    taos,nm
    Seems apt to me. You are certainly free to explain why it isn't. But simply saying laws are more important than rules, if that is what you mean, doesn't seem to me to do it. They are after all the laws of the game aren't they?
     
  2. Timon19

    Timon19 Member+

    Jun 2, 2007
    Akron, OH
    Do men with guns throw you in a cage for violating Law XII?
     
  3. taosjohn

    taosjohn Member+

    Dec 23, 2004
    taos,nm
    No-- but people with whistles can keep you out of a game you want to play in.

    That's scale not structure.
     
  4. Timon19

    Timon19 Member+

    Jun 2, 2007
    Akron, OH
    Explaining why I think you are being a tremendous asshole requires crossing the streams with P&CE, due to what YOU brought up in a bid to be clever.

    I'm not going to do that here, as I am nearly certain it is against this forum's rules, which are rather different from the area you want to entangle here.
     
  5. taosjohn

    taosjohn Member+

    Dec 23, 2004
    taos,nm
    And calling someone what you just did is within this forum's rules? Sorry but I'm just not seeing this.

    Not like I sent private eyes out with instructions to find Timon so I can expose him-- I'm just pointing out that you have been known to employ the same sort of argument you are denying here, elsewhere on BS. Is there a whole different set of rules on this exact forum requiring that we be unaware of who is who here? Can you point me to where this rule is-- I thought I had read them all, but I do have brain damage-- perhaps I have forgotten. Or you could report me and a mod might explain my sin to me?>
     
  6. Timon19

    Timon19 Member+

    Jun 2, 2007
    Akron, OH
    That's called "calling you out" and "trying to get a mod to nip it in the bud" in one go. I have little doubt it's against the forum rules.
     
  7. Semblance17

    Semblance17 Member+

    United States
    Apr 27, 2013
    Lighthouse Point, FL
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Why do these match threads keep ending with a squabble?

    I'd hoped I wouldn't have to use this again, but
    [​IMG]
     
    Ismitje, jnielsen, ifsteve and 4 others repped this.
  8. jackdoggy

    jackdoggy Member+

    May 16, 2014
    Big D
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    When Semb ends a thread he really ends a thread :D:D

    A quick P.S. - crowd was 70 US, 5 Spain and 25 neutrals, saw LOTS of French gear.
    I don’t know where all these people are coming from but sure glad they are here.

    Staying in Reims a couple more days cuz the BnB in Paris has no A/C......I know, cry me a river :D

    I Believe
     
    Ismitje, MiLLeNNiuM, Semblance17 and 3 others repped this.
  9. FanOfFutbol

    FanOfFutbol Member+

    May 4, 2002
    In soccer the player's hands and feet and even the head are much like the stick in hockey. In hockey players are completely responsible for their stick and any contact with a head from the other team is "high sticking" no matter how inadvertent or accidental. I believe that soccer players should be held to the same kind of level of required behavior.
    I also think that hockey should get rid of all the fake fighting and the idea that it somehow "good" and game misconduct anyone involved in a fight. But that is another subject.

    Soccer needs to clean itself up in lots of ways and punishing "inadvertent" contact is just a start.
     
  10. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    Slapping someone in the face and getting a yellow doesn't seem like a big deal to me. If the argument was that: the Ref was letting the game be brutal in many other ways, why single out a soft slap for a yellow. But then you can spin that as: the game was so brutal why call a late PK on soft contact that was not a foul anywhere else that day?

    In the end, she called both and the USWNT moved on. This is all distracting from the lack of offense and another "deer in the headlights" performance from Jill Ellis.

    Keeping Horan out to avoid suspension for France is bold, maybe overly risky, but I was ok with that. Subbing Horan in for defense after holding her out all game is asinine.

    As we discussed on the Roster thread, I never thought when it came down to it that Ellis would have the guts to play Brian, Long, or McDonald. One of the first two should have come in instead of Horan. So, that proves that point. McDonald would have been a great sub for Morgan or to play with Morgan to win balls and occupy the very physical Spanish CBs. Of course, Lloyd would be the first choice there, which just doubles down on the point that McDonald should not be on the roster because she will never be used in a big spot.

    Zerboni is the player in the pool that should have subbed in for Horan. You can say she has no "big game experience", but Horan really doesn't either (she subbed into an Olympic game or two and Mewis has none). And this is Ellis's second cycle and Zerboni is not young or recently a top DM. There was plenty of time to get her experience, so it is all on Ellis.
     
    Kevin625 repped this.
  11. TimB4Last

    TimB4Last Member+

    May 5, 2006
    Dystopia
    Yes, I think it has to be this way. Try to keep your hands down even in difficult circumstances, and if your hand comes flying up into someone's face/head, accept that that contact is a foul and possibly card-worthy.
     
  12. Timon19

    Timon19 Member+

    Jun 2, 2007
    Akron, OH
    Apparently, people want to see Weebles, except people aren't Weebles and they will fall down without the aid of the ability to change one's center of mass for fear of being cheaply booked.

    I made the comparison to futsal, but I think that's wrong, because even there there is SOME discretion allowed for physics.
     
  13. Number007

    Number007 Member

    Santos FC
    Brazil
    Aug 29, 2018
    why do we believe that was the real reason she omitted Horan? Maybe it was tactical
     
  14. Number007

    Number007 Member

    Santos FC
    Brazil
    Aug 29, 2018
    the fringe players on the roster are selected as a "thank you" for past service. Its how they get paid. Ellis uses these spots as a golden handshake.
     
  15. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    Well, they didn't play any different really; so not sure how it could be tactical. It could be that she thought Mewis gave her a better chance to win than Horan. That is certainly possible. But nothing in the past three years, nothing Ellis has done this tournament, and nothing Ellis has said would lead you to believe it. But it is possible. We will see against France.
     
  16. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    That is possible too. Brian would have been paid regardless as she is on salary for the whole year.

    If you want to make your 23 women roster effectively 17, that is your choice. But if you didn't want to play Horan, need a midfielder to see out a tough game, looked down your bench, and only saw friends of yours you wanted to make some money and be fun to hang out in France with, that is a problem.

    Win or Lose, the USWNT deserves an actual coach next cycle. The best you can say about Jill is she can win sometimes with superior talent.
     
    Kevin625 repped this.
  17. Number007

    Number007 Member

    Santos FC
    Brazil
    Aug 29, 2018
    Thats the point though. If you read or listen to the narrative, the USA has the best first second and third team in the world. Journos talking about how the best game would be USA 1 vs USA 2 . They feel they can afford to pick on a basis other than talent because the differences in players is not big. The pay day is victory tours and win shares.
     
  18. MiLLeNNiuM

    MiLLeNNiuM Member+

    Aug 28, 2016
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #418 MiLLeNNiuM, Jun 27, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2019
    So, I was just watching this match again, and I noticed something new regarding the USA's second PK around the 70 minute. I created a gif of the video replay:

    [​IMG]

    It bothered me that some people thought that Rose took a dive.
    What I noticed is that there was definite contact with the studs by the defender.
    You can clearly see the right foot of the defender (#14) move vertically when it hits Lavelle's right shin.
     
    jnielsen, orcrist, taosjohn and 2 others repped this.
  19. Timon19

    Timon19 Member+

    Jun 2, 2007
    Akron, OH
    I'm not sure where you get the idea that "contact" and "dive" are mutually exclusive. At any rate, I personally wouldn't call what she did after the "contact" a dive, per se. Some people think it was.

    Either way, the PK was crap, and there's no way the referee sees that for sure to the point of instant award. She assumed she saw something and got bailed out on a technicality.
     
    Number007 repped this.
  20. taosjohn

    taosjohn Member+

    Dec 23, 2004
    taos,nm
    So she thought she saw something, and review of the video confirmed she saw it, and it is a foul, but you don't think she should have been able to see it, so it shouldn't have been called.

    Got it.
     
    MiLLeNNiuM and orcrist repped this.
  21. Timon19

    Timon19 Member+

    Jun 2, 2007
    Akron, OH
    I'm saying she very likely guessed or assumed. Two things referees are not supposed to do.

    My position that it was not nearly enough for a PK in any sense is the same.
     
  22. taosjohn

    taosjohn Member+

    Dec 23, 2004
    taos,nm
    Whereas it is okay for you to guess or assume that, 'cause you are not a referee.

    Got it.
     
    JanBalk repped this.
  23. Timon19

    Timon19 Member+

    Jun 2, 2007
    Akron, OH
    Yes. I am a fan. This site is here expressly for that purpose, in fact.
     
    Ismitje repped this.
  24. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    #424 Patrick167, Jun 27, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2019
    This discussion is reminding me of the discussion about celebrating, wildly, the X-teenth goal against Thailand. There is a fan-first mentality that needs the team to always be super role models and super soccer players. Anything on the field that threatens that is discussed endlessly in a defensive manner. Meanwhile, the players are just playing to win.

    The Ref called a PK. VAR didn't overturn it. Yes, there was contact. No, not everyone agrees that that contact, in the context of the game and where the ball was, was worthy of a PK. Some have suggested Lavelle embellished; but most just think she was clipped, slightly, but had already misplayed the ball.

    The game is done. It really doesn't matter does it? If the call had gone against the USWNT all the fans calling this a dead on penalty would be screaming about how we were eliminated on a soft call and the ref was anti-US. There is no reason to feel guilt, really thanks to VAR. It was looked at two or three times and the Ref called it. Don't let that subconscious guilt make you worry endlessly about it.

    Or maybe we do think calls even out and Karma is going to get us called for a softie against France or later on? So we are trying to convince Karma it was absolutely a stone cold penalty?
     
  25. cpthomas

    cpthomas BigSoccer Supporter

    Portland Thorns
    United States
    Jan 10, 2008
    Portland, Oregon
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Thanks very much for the gif, I was at the game and they didn't show any replays that I can recall and certainly anything in slo mo. Looking at the gif, it was not close to incidental contact, it took significant pressure to cause the offending defender's foot to do what it did. And, it looks like it might have pushed Lavelle's foot downward as she was trying to move at full speed.

    I actually feel very good about the call after seeing the gif. And, at the game, seeing the speed of the play, I didn't think Lavelle oversold it. She's a relatively light player and is easier to knock down than some others. She took a belly flop due to the contact with her lead foot. It looked like a natural thing to me, in real time. The simple thing is, the Spain defender really screwed up. The heat should be on her, not the ref.
     

Share This Page