Would Argentina have won the 1986 World Cup if Pele in place of Maradona?

That would be interesting to find, though I do not know of any website that offers the stats. I think you could look into, for example, the squad of AC Milan, Napoli, and Juventus, in each game that they played in a particular season, and if, for example, you can see that Van Basten missed about 10 games in a season, that should at least give you an idea. Then you can do the same for modern era players, and compare. The negative, of course, is that this would consume considerable time from your schedule.

Personally, I think that injuries in the 90s were more common than now. For example, I recently watched a lot of Gheorghe Hagi games in La Liga between 1990 and 1992, and I was surprised at the physicality of La Liga back then. The game is still very physical, of course, but I think that players today are cleaner with their tackles, which results in less serious injury. At the same time, though, players do more running today, which also leads to more injuries.

So perhaps today we have more injuries as a result of over-exertion, but back in the 1980s and 1990s we had more injuries as a result of badly-timed or just ill-intentional tackles.

 

Sorry if I misunderstood you @Puck - sometimes it just gives the impression that you ask a player of Maradona's or Romario's talents to be a Romano or Salinas. No one wants that, not the club's owner, the coach, their team mates, the media, nor the fans. Anyways, didn't mean to misquote you in my previous post.

Agree on the food analogy. But the normal looking girl can you give you better sex

 

You was the first to mention Zidane, not me. I wasn't applying anything to Zidane.

And now walk to hell, dirty troll.

 

@Puck - why are you so aggressive?

 

Wouldnt know, I've only had hot babes...

Seriously though. Just like a simple pass can work better than a difficult one or a flick. Its true, it can. Maybe thats Puck's point. Then again, a buddy of yours tells you he has nailed this beautiful woman, you are not gonna be like "pfff, normal looking women can give you better sex", are you? I feel thats what Puck was doing here. A little bitter...

 

@Puck is also inconsistent - he mentions a simple pass would do just as well as flashy one at times but then castigates Barcelona as a team for collectively making these same simple passes until they advance into the opponent's danger zone.

Ultimately, you want a special player to make those plays that are unique and breathtaking. Otherwise, we might as well be watching "The ESPN Spelling Bee" championship

 

That's not inconsistent. Like I said: I do not talk about backpasses or sideways passes. I talk about moves that do a similar thing as some flashy trick or flashy trapping. Obviously, a back-pass has no way the same pro-activity as a flashy touch into forward space. That was my original comment:
"What I tried to hint at is the relativity of single moments (another recurring 'youtube' mistake is that ppl forget to ask whether some skill was always the best option avalaible) and how the team-mates did occasionally/frequently some of those 'tricks' too."

The classic example:

The touch at 3:50

 

I mentioned Zidane because you have consistently criticized Romario for something that one of your favorite players, Zidane, also did consistently throughout his career. I criticized your lack of consistency, and your convenient/inconsistent use of double standards. So far, you have only proven me right with your non-argument in which you intend to play victim when in fact you are the aggressor.

You have said that Zidane is two leagues above Iniesta, despite the fact that Iniesta 2010/2011 was a better player than Zidane in any season.

You say that Romario was reckless with his unnecessary flicks and tricks, yet you fail to recognize that Zidane could also be very careless with unnecessary flicks and tricks.

You criticize Xavi Hernandez for sideways passing, yet you fail to recognize that Xavi Hernandez was in fact as good a passer as Zidane, and you also fail to recognize that Zidane himself was The original sideways passer (note: statistics and actual footage show this to be true).

Bottom line -- you use double standards to your convenience, and then you feel "insulted" when a person has the decency of telling it to your face, rather than behind your back.

By the way, you are an aggressive person Puck, everyone can see it, and this is not the first (nor will it be the last) time that you over-react to reasonable criticism. I would tell you to go to hell, but then I realized I have better things to do with my time than waste my breath on hateful insults over the internet. Good luck hating or disliking people for seemingly no good reason at all.

 

There's no doubt that you are the aggressor. You call me out on a by-line, a line that I put within parentheses. And there it doesn't stop; you accuse me of not applying my 'wrong standards' to Zidane only because he is an European. A really uncalled accusation. You are such a treacherous person. You was the one making the accusations, and applying insincere motives to me. Don't make a fool of yourself. I did not question you, you questioned me. On insincere grounds.
https://www.bigsoccer.com/community/...-if-pele-in-place-of-maradona.1993025/page-52
It just took two posts to call me 'foolish' and accuse me of a wide array of things. Don't play the victim here; you was the accuser and nobody else.

I was not only 'wrong', I also failed to apply my 'wrong' concept to Zidane. Because he is an European. What a joke.

And just another treacherous and dishonest accusation.

I did not mention Zidane nor Romario until you started to do so and used the occasion to sway some dirt to my direction.

This really takes the cake; you just can't accuse me of that while at the same time you assaulted me with things like this:

"
As much as some people want to believe that "a simple pass sideways" would have accomplished the same as a flashy skill -- that's not true, at all. Holding possession by simply passing the ball intelligently, and holding possession by holding the ball until you are surrounded by two or three opponents -- are not different means to the same end, these are different means to different ends; a fact that far too often is completely disregarded.
[...]
A "simple pass" will never replace what could have been done with skill, nor will skill replace what could have been done with a simple pass, so who decides which one was the "better" option available? And why do some people foolishly believe that one can replace the other?
"

It is certainly out of order to apply some insincere motives to me.

Show these statistics. Now. Or back off and lose your credibility.

 

I think I understand your point.... But what I think you do not understand, is that if you did the same with Zinedine Zidane, you will always find an instance in which Zidane gave away the possession unnecessarily or even carelessly. You want to attribute such a "careless" characteristic to Romario and a few other South American players when in fact one of your favorites, Zidane, was also guilty of the same thing.

I bet you that if I look at Zidane's 1998 World Cup or 2006 World Cup, I will find good examples, in every single game (including his famous performances Brazil), of Zidane giving away the possession after trying an unnecessary skill.

 

This is a much more fruitful approach for a discussion. Zidane isn't one of my favourites though. You could've known that because I recently gave my 2c in the 'favourite players' thread.

I will take a critical look on Zidane again and see whether he tries some ridiculous trappings himself.

 

You still don't get it do you?

You did in fact applied your 'wrong' concept to Zidane; if you had not applied your 'wrong' concept to Zidane I would have never used Zidane as an example to begin with.

That criticism that you have chosen to describe as a "treacherous" attack was not aimed at you specifically -- I was also thinking about Jaweirdo and a few others who consistently claim that a simple pass is almost always the more intelligent and the more efficient option; I think you guys exaggerate in this respect.

Like, for example, Jaweirdo thinks that 2014 CR7 is better than the dribbling-type CR7 of 2011 -- I disagree with that, I think 2014 CR7 could add a little more dribbling into his repertoire, definitely.

I'm sorry to disappoint you, but I'm not always thinking about you when I criticize a generic view point that many people share in common -- and yes, you are the aggressor who is trying (and failing) to portray himself as the victim; you are the aggressor, you decided that a criticism that was clearly aimed "against" a generic view point that many people share in common, you decided that such a criticism was a direct attack on you, therefore, by definition, you are the aggressor because you took the initiative of taking things "personally" when the fact was that my criticism was not aimed at you neither specifically nor personally.

It isn't my fault that you chose to see or create enemies where there are none.

Since when have Xavi Hernandez's passing statistics been a secret? Everyone knows the numbers or statistics concerning Xavi's passing, everyone knows his assists-ratio and his pass-success-ratio far exceeds anything that Zidane ever did passing-wise.

Can you please explain to me how my "credibility" is at stake here? I don't get it. I thought Xavi's passing statistics were general/common knowledge? But again, this clearly shows just how out of touch you are with modern football, that you don't even appear to know about Xavi's passing statistics? One of the most talked about subjects in the last six seasons, that is, more than half a decade of Xavi breaking and establishing all sorts of records passing-wise, and you talk about it as if this information must be "revealed" to you? I fail to see how my credibility is at stake simply because you don't want to acknowledge Xavi's accomplishments.

 

You try to move around the subject. I'll spell this out.

"You criticize Xavi Hernandez for sideways passing, yet you fail to recognize that Xavi Hernandez was in fact as good a passer as Zidane, and you also fail to recognize that Zidane himself was The original sideways passer (note: statistics and actual footage show this to be true)."

1. Show that Xavi was as good a passer as Zidane. Statistics apparently show this.
2. Equally if not more important: demonstrate that Zidane was the 'original sideways passer'. Apparently, statistics can illustrate this again.

Show it, or lose your credibility and the validity of your - otherwise ungrounded - accusation.

Where did I apply this?
Where did I specifically say that Zidane doesn't commit these 'errors'? In this thread.

 

there are no record for that across the league, especially in the old days - only each club kept their own record.

BUt in EPL, they have some report for that, i.e. EPL injuries stats in 2012-13




Part 2

Injuries Per Game Week

 

This over a sudden became "passing" thread? (I am ok with that though LOL)

Talking about passes, one had to START with a SITUATION otherwise it's like someone can claim "a goal is a goal , tap in or volley"

Example of a "straw man ": "Is a thru pass is just a 'thru pass' "? (which both Zidane and Xavi did)

1- Many could say Xavi, Iniesta, or even Messi could do many good thru passes? Yes true. But one FORGET the situation that LED into that "thru pass" as end result. Xavi did many nice thru passes (and pin-point too) which required a good talent to do= YES. But , the" situation" actually "encourages" or "facilitates" him doing so.
Why? many Opponents in attack are easily confused to either marking Messi or zonal marking Pedro+Alves from right, or should they zonal-marking Neymar on left ... HENCE that led to a "SITUATION" that they might have LEFT a split hole in between them (two DF) = HENCE Xavi/Iniesta/Messi could cease that moment with a nice thru-pass.

2- Like Zico, Platini, Maradona and ... Laudrup, Zidane was great passers in the sense that NOT becuase he did a "thru pass", nor becuase he did many "pin-point passing" but ... they (could have) CREATED the moment to make those passes . Zico or Zidane using their dribbling/ball control to SPLIT defense in order to make their "thrupass"

So , end result = same , but the act is so different !

===================================================

Now lets enjoy a nice "back heel " and "flick pass" that Zidane did in a "friendly game".
Again SITUATION = no pressure and he could show off his true skills ... (I doubt Xavi, Messi, Iniesta could do same )

 

Probably he got over it but when Shilton named his 'ideal XI' plus substitutes in 2007, it's kind of funny that he didn't mention Maradona. Virtually all greats find a place in his team, except....

"

PETER SHILTON’S PERFECT XI
FIRST PUBLISHED: Four Four Two, June 2007By Chris Hunt

“There are so many great players to choose from that I could have picked three teams. Obviously Diego Maradona might have made my team, but as he still hasn’t apologised for the Hand Of God I didn’t select him.”


Gordon Banks (Goalkeeper)

“There have been some great goalkeepers over the years, but Gordon Banks was a hero of mine. Obviously the two things that Gordon will be remembered for is being in a World Cup-winning team and making one of the great World Cup saves of all time against Pelé. His main attribute was his calmness in goal but he had great positional play in an era when that was a big part of the game.”


Carlos Alberto (Right-back)

“I really like attacking fullbacks and Carlos Alberto was not only a good defender but he was also great at getting forward. He is still remembered for his goal at the end of the 1970 World Cup final.”


Franz Beckenbauer (Centre-back)

“I had the privilege of playing behind Franz Beckenbauer once in a charity match. My two centre-halves were Rudi Krol and Franz Beckenbauer – and I got Man Of The Match. It was right at the end of their careers so they didn’t really want to defend but they couldn’t half play. Beckenbauer had all the attributes of a world-class player. He was very good at reading the game and his distribution was exceptional. I think I’d put Beckenbauer at the back because I think he was remembered more in that position than in midfield. He never looked a natural midfield player.”


Bobby Moore (Centre-back)

“Bobby Moore was terrific defender. He always had this air of calmness and leadership about him and I also thought his reading of the game was suited to world football. He was a terrific tackler and when he got the ball he could pass it. He wasn’t what you would call a quick player but he was quick in his brain.”


Paolo Maldini (Left-back)

“Maldini is not only a terrific defender, but he can play and he can get forward and he can cross balls – he can do everything.”


Johan Cruyff (Right-midfield)

“Cruyff was more of a striker than Bobby Charlton, but he could also get over the pitch and play wide and get crosses in, as well as come through the middle. Versatility was a big part of his game. Certainly his ability was incredible. Although he didn’t play a tremendous amount of international matches, in the ones he did play he was outstanding. He typified Dutch football.”


Michel Platini (Centre-midfield)

“Platini was such a creative player – he could open a tin can up with his left foot. He was a spectacular goalscorer and a playmaker as well. Defending wasn’t the strongest part of his game but his left-foot was unique and left-footed players are very scarce in world football.”


Lothar Mattäus (Centre-midfield)

“To get 150 caps for your country as a midfield player is incredible. He’s more of a defensive midfielder than the others that I’ve selected. He can get forward and score goals but he can also defend and tackle and he’d get a bit of balance in this team.”


Bobby Charlton (Left-midfield)

“I would play Bobby Charlton wide left. He was a very unique player because he was a winger, but he was also a midfielder – and he was also a goalscorer in a different generation. He was very adaptable and his record of goals scored for England was exceptional and he’s still remembered for that spectacular goal against Portugal in the World Cup semi-final, when he came through the midfield and hit a tremendous shot.”


Pelé (Striker)

“I think Pelé was probably the greatest player of all time. He was totally gifted in every aspect: he was not only quick, but he was strong, a great dribbler, a goalscorer, and he was also a great header of the ball as well.”


Gary Lineker (Striker)

“I’d put Gary Lineker in my team simply because of his goalscoring ability. His record of games played and goals scored in international football is just what you want from an international player. Gary was a box player and a lethal striker, on the lines of Gerd Müller. I don’t think Gary would class himself as great footballer in the sense of some of the player’s that I’ve mentioned but he was an out and out goalscorer.”


Manager: Sir Alf Ramsey

“I would have to pick Sir Alf Ramsey at international level because he’s actually won the world cup but obviously Brian Clough would come a very close second. Sir Alf had what I call the x-factor – he didn’t say too much or overstate things, but when he did say something players listened. He also knew how to pick a great football team. He had the balance in the side and he knew the character of his players very well.”


SUBSTITUTES

Lev Yashin

“He was a big, tall goalkeeper and was tremendously athletic. I had the privilege of meeting him once when Moscow Dynamo came to Leicester.”


Eusébio

“I watched the World Cup in 1966 and he was outstanding, a really charismatic player.”


David Beckham

“Probably one of the best dead ball takers of all time and at his peak he could do everything.”


Ruud Krol

“He could read the game so well and he was a favourite of mine.”


John Charles

“To be able to play as a centre-half and as a striker and be equally good was tremendous.”

"

http://www.chrishunt.biz/features32.html

 

I hope you appreciate the article (it is from a book I saw; I suddenly remembered vaguely the Morales quote) - see part in boldface. Luckily it's on the internet.

(originally wanted to point at this article but then I saw on the same site Shilton his XI)

http://www.chrishunt.biz/features22.html

 

Good point

Surprised that he picked Lineker over Eusebio and even John Charles (an English great FW of all time calibre)

 

Answered by Jimmy Greaves.

Taken from twitter.

 

haha

Carlos, telling her the truth on the first date is not the English Way.

Asking your friend to "get physical" is not the English Way- it is the Peruvian Way. (or Agrgentina?)

 

JamesBH11, Pele score 12 goals in 14 games but he didn't provide 9 ASSISTS. he made 6 or 7 ASSISTS in World Cup finals.
1 assist against USSR in 1958

2 assist against Mexico in 1962

3 assist against England in 1970

4 assist against Uruguay in 1970 semifinal.

5 and 6 assist against Italy
.

Also there is another one who is debateable, because the ball deflected.
https://youtu.be/aj0Oyb4SxbA.

As you see Pele, made 6 assists , or maybe seven, but surely not 9.

 

Thank you for your efforts Kovalt

 

Off the top of my head mate, he did assist Jairzinho vs Czechoslovakia I know I 1970 too (for the goal where Jairzinho dribbles and scores into the bottom corner).

 

Here is the video for you:

It's on here at 6:20 too: