worthy of dismissal?

Discussion in 'Referee' started by threeputzzz, Jul 17, 2017.

?

Dismiss?

  1. Toss him immediately

    35 vote(s)
    76.1%
  2. Not enough to dismiss yet

    11 vote(s)
    23.9%
  1. threeputzzz

    threeputzzz Member+

    May 27, 2009
    Minnesota
    My last game of the summer season was yesterday. AR1 for U14 girls, top level, state tournament qualifier final. Winner goes to state, loser season is over. Away team coach has not complained out loud the whole game, but I hear him muttering to himself once in while. We are into last minute of added time when one of his players takes out the legs of an attacking opponent just outside the PA. Coach explodes. "No way! She got the ball!" (she didn't). Then a couple seconds later - "THAT'S A GODDAMN USELESS CALL!".

    Our state instructs that public profanity at any youth match is grounds for immediate dismissal. There is a team manager present so the match is not abandoned if the coach is dismissed. What would you do?
     
  2. GoalOFC11

    GoalOFC11 New Member

    Jan 3, 2017
    Club:
    Everton FC
    Doesn't matter if the team manager is present or not. GONE. Uphold the rules of the competition and LOTG.
     
    shawn12011 and BTFOOM repped this.
  3. RespectTheGame

    May 6, 2013
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    If it's loud enough to be described in all capitals I'm afraid he left you with no choice.
     
    BTFOOM, dadman, greek ref and 1 other person repped this.
  4. threeputzzz

    threeputzzz Member+

    May 27, 2009
    Minnesota
    It was very loud. I was not the center, it was not my choice to make.
     
  5. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    I'm not sure your poll answers create a fair binary choice.

    Certainly the referee could toss for this. But I think the question of whether the referee should toss for this is more complicated. It's not personal at all -- completely about the call. It is public as you describe. It's not persistent, coming in added time. We can debate where GD is on the profane category and whether it matters if it is followed by a "you" or by an impersonal object. (For me, this phrase being directed at the call instead of the referee makes a huge difference.) So I think a lot of this call depends on what the state really means by profanity and how it is typically applied. Are people familiar with the expectations and practices in the state going to be surprised if the policy is strictly enforced, or are they going to think "dumb coach, rule is clear?" If its the former, I don't think dying minutes of a QF are the place to fight that battle.
     
  6. threeputzzz

    threeputzzz Member+

    May 27, 2009
    Minnesota
    Well there are a few things you could do, but you are either going to dismiss with no further thought or you are not - everything else you can do falls in the not category. The club assignor was at the venue but not at that field. We had a chat with him after the game and he brought up exactly the same points you did about the dissent being directed at the call instead of the person and if we should consider what was said to be profane. There wasn't unanimous agreement among the several referees present. He asked the referee to file a report with the state committee and let him know what their response was.

    It was loud enough, belligerent enough, and in my opinion not within the normal realm of expected coach behavior for Minnesota youth soccer, so I was one of those that advocated for immediate dismissal, as did others there. The center in this game opted to issue a tell, and he was backed by the assignor with the caveat that there is no clearly correct answer here - hence the poll.
     
    dadman repped this.
  7. fairplayforlife

    fairplayforlife Member+

    Mar 23, 2011
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's a youth game. Not responsible behavior. Dismiss.
     
  8. RespectTheGame

    May 6, 2013
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    It's a sad statement of our society today when there is any debate that "GODDAMN" is profane.
     
    voiceoflg and Doug the Ref repped this.
  9. RefGil

    RefGil Member

    Dec 10, 2010
    Precisely. Who would consider "GODDAMN" profane? :whistling:
     
    Justin Z and IASocFan repped this.
  10. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    While you toss or not, that isn't quite how you phrased your questions. You not toss went farther and said not enough to toss. The point I was trying to make was that the decision not to toss in this case is not necessarily because there is not enough that you could toss, but a judgment not to do so even though there is enough that you could justify tossing.
     
  11. fairplayforlife

    fairplayforlife Member+

    Mar 23, 2011
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    IMG_0486.JPG
    Couldn't resist.
     
  12. chwmy

    chwmy Member+

    Feb 27, 2010
    I think
    1: an adult who would yell "GD" at the top of his lungs at a 13 yo game does not have boundaries that qualify him to be around those youth. Do what your state instruction for youth games says and send him.
    2: a coach that yells that at an adult game gets ask or tell based on context. Thing is if he truly belligerent, he needs more management than just a flyby. He either needs a defusing or an AC, but a running "no more, coach" probably won't get the desired outcome.
     
  13. threeputzzz

    threeputzzz Member+

    May 27, 2009
    Minnesota
    Ok semantics really. If you dont dismiss then it wasnt enough for you at the time. Sorry if that wasnt clear.
     
    dadman repped this.
  14. Sport Billy

    Sport Billy Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 25, 2006
    Unbelievable
     
  15. fairplayforlife

    fairplayforlife Member+

    Mar 23, 2011
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Vague?
     
  16. Schlager

    Schlager Member

    Dec 5, 2016
    Unbelievably vague??
     
  17. Sport Billy

    Sport Billy Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 25, 2006
    Apparently, this game has become such a farce that Rooney can tell a referee to "F@CK OFF" while on camera and suffer no consequence but, a coach who, upon his team conceding a later goal in an important match, utters "goddamn" risks being dismissed because some referee deems it offensive.

    This entire thread is laughable.

    Look at the OP.
    We have a coach calling a call "useless" at an audible level and the discussion on whether he can be dismissed centers on a word that is used to emphasize one's frustration. Really?
     
  18. threeputzzz

    threeputzzz Member+

    May 27, 2009
    Minnesota
    We're talking about a U14 game here, not the EPL. You're familiar with the principle of what we allow, we condone, right?
     
  19. fairplayforlife

    fairplayforlife Member+

    Mar 23, 2011
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think that's the point some of us are tying to make. It shouldn't be allowed in either case.

    The colorful add on by the coach is completely relevant. It's move the level of complaint from something in the acceptable to unacceptable.

    Just as "Referee that a foul" is different that "Referee that a f@@king foul" are not in the same realm.

    Don't get me wrong, we as referees made this bed of errors ourselves by being influenced into not dealing with these forms of language for a long time and particularly at the "rec" and professional level. One because the games supposedly don't matter and the other because they supposedly matter so much we shouldn't send someone off for a thing like that.

    That is the unbelievable part. That we not only drank this kool-aid but asked for seconds.
     
  20. Sport Billy

    Sport Billy Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 25, 2006
    Yes, which is why my point was that we drill the audible dissent - the use of "Goddamn" isn't a factor.
     
  21. Sport Billy

    Sport Billy Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 25, 2006
    I agree neither should be permitted.
    But the problem with the OP example is that it's audible dissent
    The "goddamn" really has no bearing.
    "Goddamn" is nowhere near "f@cking" in terms of being profane.
    It is being used for emphasis, not to offend.
    The term, in this usage, is not inherently profane.

    I wholeheartedly agree with the remainder of your post
     
  22. threeputzzz

    threeputzzz Member+

    May 27, 2009
    Minnesota
    To some people it is, to others it is not. There is no George Carlin style list published in the ROC or SRC instruction. Of course it's not the most profane language he could have used, but is it far enough out of line at U14? Given that the poll results currently stand at 24-5 in favor of immediate dismissal, I'd say it's hardly an "unbelievable" question.
     
  23. kayakhorn

    kayakhorn Member+

    Oct 10, 2011
    Arkansas
    #23 kayakhorn, Jul 20, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2017
    For what it's worth:

    Profane: Showing irreverence or contempt toward God or sacred things: Blasphemous.

    So Goddamn would be considered by most to be profane by definition, but I don't recall blasphemy being an offense in the LOTG.:) Shouting it could easily be considered irresponsible conduct by the coach though.
    Using the word f@cking is merely offensive, insulting or abusive (or maybe not in a MBB league).
     
    IASocFan repped this.
  24. wh1s+1eR

    wh1s+1eR Member

    Apr 23, 2017
    #24 wh1s+1eR, Jul 20, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2017
    AR1 = assistant, yes? Then, only I action to confirm referee hear loud speech. Referee make decision, if ask me, i tell my thought. He shout in space, not to me or referee.
    (I inquire OP, did referee blow whistle after coach explosion and loud speech? Post not clarify.)
     
  25. Bubba Atlanta

    Bubba Atlanta Member+

    Mar 2, 2012
    Yep, Atlanta
    Club:
    Atlanta United FC
    Or just emphasis ... (no wait, that's "fooking"). :rolleyes:
     
    Law5 repped this.

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