I think the most obvious event let Ronaldinho weak to be comparable to the other two in such all-time greatest list, should actually be his failure in personal performance in the 2006 World Cup.
I agree, but it wasn't only him who failed at that WC06. Every single Brazilian player failed at that WC because of the NT managers. Tactically and strategically it was a failure from the start. The majority of the players (which all stars) went to that WC with the wrong mindset. Too many individualism. Ronaldo who was fat as hell and out of condition went there for his own personal interest to break a goal record. He along with others did not play for the TEAM let alone for Brazil. But I think Ronaldinho's fall from grace had more to do with self motivation then anything else. Because his under performance showed not only with WC06 but AC.Milan as well. Somehow he lost motivation to continue, perhaps too much party?
This past week a local sports channel, Fox Sports Espanol, ran a little vignette on Ronaldinho which mentions he apparently loved fast women while at Barca, often having his shenanigans with numerous women the night before a match. It didn't seem to harm his level those first few years but in the long run it may have affected his fitness, may help explain such an abrupt fall from the top while still in his 20s.
Women and party has always been A true Brazilian's Achilles heal. Of the record, I do regard Ronaldinho as one of my favourites. I will put him in my dream team without doubt. He is a true entertainer, in and off the pitch. His game brought joy and without him football is simply dry boring to watch. Messi may be a goal scoring machine, but he lacks joy. If you know what I mean.
CORRECTION! Pele was ALWAYS an INSIDE LEFT (for both Santos and Brazil ) or we called it a AM/playmaker today game A BASIC NOTION of inside left is wearing #10 in a 2 3 5 Classic formation: 11 -----10-------9 ------8--------7 or equivalent to LW -----IL----CF -----IR-------RW ----- 4 -------- 5 ---------- 6 -----....................................------HL -------HB ------- HR------- -----------3 ------------2 -------.......................................------------LB---------RB------------ ---------------- 1 ---------------- A Common MISTAKE to label: Pele *inside left as support striker, or Puskas *also inside left as Striker! Rivaldo ONLY played as SS in Copa99 (6games) and WC02 (7games) and last 2 seasons (about 60+games at Barca. The rest of 70% of his games were EITHER LEFT MF, Left FW or CAM (his early years)
First bold, I said I thanks to BAGGIO miskick that brought Brazil tto 4th WC OK? nothing to do with Romario (well he missed a clear chance as well) You must be jealous with Ronaldo's SUCCESS and had BIGGER STATS as obvious case. You must be jealous since Ronaldo appeared on top of Romario in EVERY LIST available (up todate) 2nd bold, that's in YOUR DREAM! in almost 99% cases, Pele, Garrincha, Zico= Ronaldo > Romario and the rest Last bold, putting Beckham in same bracket of Zidane and Ronaldo showed your LITTLE KNOWLEDGE in football CASE CLOSE here!
Ronaldo doesn't have bigger stats at all. The only stats Ronaldo has better are the gpg in final big games. All else is in favour of Romario. Did Ronaldo win more trophies then Romario? Did Ronaldo win more top scoring titles then Romario? Did Ronaldo score more goals then Romario? Did Ronaldo drag an average NT to glory in a WC? Did Ronaldo become champion in every league he played like Romario did? Did Ronaldo scored hat tricks against Real Madrid or Atletico Madrid in EL CLASICO BIG GAMES? Di Ronaldo put an end to Brazil NT drought of not winning WC since 1970 or Copa America in 40 years? So what STATS are you talking about? ESPN? PLACAR? On Beckham: You seem to miss the point too often. I WASN'T putting Beckham in the same class as Ronaldo, what I did was regarding him as another marketing player like Ronaldo and Zidane. Why you seem to take all our writings out of context mate? Can't you read? Ronaldo along with Zidane and Beckham were marketing players. They were good footballers but their stardom was in great part thanks to their successful marketing publicity stunts! [YOUR DREAM! in almost 99% cases, Pele, Garrincha, Zico= Ronaldo > Romario and the rest] 99% cases? Show me Proof me where I can find 99% of cases. Come on show me where 99% of cases Ronaldo>Romario. Can you give me the source of 99% cases? Have you ran a survey around the world to establish that 99% cases are in favour of Ronaldo? Yeah right. The more you argue the more I see that you are the only one here making up stories. 99% cases? How do you know?
Indeed, Romario beats Ronaldo in most stats AND has that extra touch of beauty to his game over Ronaldo. The only thing favoring Ronaldo is his longevity for the Brazilian NT, playing in three WCs and scoring 14 goals, although Romario achieved the higher peak at WC94. At club level it's no contest, Romario easily outperforms Ronaldo, having both a higher peak and greater longevity.
I think that's a mistake. As an inside-forward Pelé wasn't primarily an attacking midfielder or a classic playmaker, during his best level, which lasted from late 50's to late 60's, is very easy to identify him as an electric attacker or a support striker with playmaking abilities (like Messi nowadays). Just only from the late 60's and early 70's, when Pelé was past his highest peak of performance, he became slowly in a playmaker for his teams. Pelé, like Puskás, fit well into the support strikers category in my opinion. I think the tactical drawing doesn't help to identify these roles but his characteristics and movements on the field.
At club level, I'd say Ronaldo had the higher peak between 1997 and 1998 playing for Barcelona and Inter Milan by sure.
I posted plenty and you fan boys kept on singing the SAME OLD SONG! Do "search" of my posts OK? since i do not want to REPEAT things (many times) like you and Pipiolo did! (each stats I remember I posted at least 3 times and 3 are more than ENOUGH! I though you guys like to they are just Romario fan boy ... and blinded to the facts...
First, this has got nothing to do with being a fanboy or even a moderate fan or else. It has got to do with integrity and the inconsistency in the dodgy sources of your data. Further, it has also to do with your arguments. For instant, instead of pointing us to a match (Ronaldo vs Valencia, or Ronaldo vs Compostela) or presenting an official data(e.g. rsssf.com lists) that's recognised and accepted by football authorities (e.g. fifa or any football federation/association) all you did instead was using 1. Ronaldo's personal individual WC 15 goal records, 2. final big game gpg's, and 3. holding a false believe that "99% of the world agrees with your views". Any of these are not concrete evidence to proof Ronaldo as a better striker or player. Analogy, In court: The jury has reached the verdict; "Sorry, but the witness has not presented factual evidence in court, but mere circumstantial evidence of dubious sources, not recognised in this court, that doesn't connect nor establish the superiority of player A on player B". This is what a judge would have concluded upon seeing your argument. Because the difference between me(and pipiolo) vs you is that while you say you have posted stats and DATA you din't present RELEVANT evidence that shows Ronaldo a better striker. Those 15 goal record and final big games is not the key piece of evidence of interest we are waiting to see here to establish the debate. Those 15 goals are individual accolades and will soon be broken again, perhaps next WC (Klose?), so can't be taken too seriously. To score 15 goals, which is remarkable, you need to at least play in 3 WC to achieve that. Romario played in one! If those WC goal recorss where crucial parameters of greatness then Miraslov Klose should be regarded as a better player then Romario, Van Basten, Baggio, Messi, etc but he's not right? So it's not a Universal piece of parameter to asses player A vs B. Or, I too, could cherry pick data(like you're doing) in favour of Romario and be biassed and say "here's some data in favour of xxx player, therefore xxx player is better" like picking Romario's number of hat-tricks against Big Clubs in Eredivisie and La Liga, which are a way lot more then Ronaldo's and use it against you, but I won't since that would be "Cherry picking" data and irrelevant (and not my style either)! That's why not only me, but Pipiolo AND some other members on this thread are not convinced by your argument/lists of stats. Second, your stats seems to be unconvincing since each list contradicts the other in ranking and order. In one player A ranks 14 while the same player A ranks 9 in a different list. Too inconsistent. That's why in the beginning we advised you to not waist your time with amateur non-football authority voting polls. Those lists of your are produced every single week by fanatics on the internet like us (some are 15 year old boys who never saw neither Romario nor Ronaldo, or biased reporters who are linked to magazines and news media with their own agenda's to sell sensation) who themselves are fans of a particular player or have used inconsistent statistics methods to begin with. Why should I trust ESPN, PLACAR, Guardian, bigsoccer.com, Goal.com, bleacherreport.com, etc etc? We are adults trying to learn something, and for the sake of the integrity of the debate we should present official data not inconsistent data like yours. And while you keep winging about false FACTS, you have yet not responded satisfactorily to mine and Pipiolo's simple question on Ronaldo's lack of winning league titles (championships and Top scoring titles). Now you've have previously answered by saying that all his Clubs (Real, PSV, Barca, Milan, Inter) where all SUB PART which I already responded to be nonsense! But even IF all the Clubs Ronaldo played for in 16 years in Europe where, indeed like you said, SUB PARTS, he still did miss winning TOP SCORING titles which is something he could have done with SUB PART Clubs or not. Thence, in this category Romario outperformed Ronaldo in TOP scoring titles, and since we're contesting two strikers/centre forwards the overall GOAL FACTOR should be weighting more then anything (more then final game gpg etc). A category, among others, that Romario clearly comes on top by a loooooong mile! Now, you may keep throwing gpg final games, but that is not enough nor convincing. Any player can fail to score throughout a tournament and come up in the final to score a hat trick in a BIG final match. Which brings us to the next point. I too could "Cherry pick" data in favour of ROmario, for example. I could say that Romario scored more goals against BIG GAMES like "El Clasico" Barca vs Real/Barca vs Atletico/Barca vs Manchester United/PSV vs Ajax /Vasco vs Flamengo etc. since Romario scored more goals against these Club giants then Ronaldo ever have. What matters between striker vs striker debate is GOAL titles and consistency in scoring goals throughout their respective careers. And not just one single league season or final WC match/tournament but the overall length of consistency and longevity in scoring while playing in top professional football. And if you understand this point and accept it, then you cannot help but to realise that for a player like Ronaldo which has such a high reputation as a goal scorer machine(by (99% or the world) or complete striker(by some) he did not match whit what really took place in the real world. The data(goals) doesn't match the hype nor his reputation. It simply doesn't doesn't add! That's why me and others don't believe that Ronaldo's reputation is legit or honest. And this is no theory since the real legit DATA (Top scoring titles and league titles) is their for all to see.
I would say: Ronaldo 96 - 97 Romario 93 - 94, 99 - 02, Ronaldo 97 - 98, 02 - 03 Perhaps Ronaldo's 96-97 year is just a bit more sensational, overall Romario has four legendary club seasons and Ronaldo has three of them. For reference, I categorize Ronaldinho 04 - 06 and Messi 08 - 11 as legendary club seasons.
That's no mistake at all. 1 Go by the traditional 2 3 5 or WM, one of the inside FW (usually left) was the playmaker of the team. Only Hungary 54 made a revolution with Hidegkuti (#9 or CF) played withdrawn much deeper to control MF, and take turn with Puskas (inside left) as playmaker, while Kocis (another inside FW) surging up to become a "surprised striker" 2- At Santos, Pele was always the main guy or playmaker ! ONly at WC58 to somewhat WC62, Didi was the playmaker for the team, so Pele played more like a :creative AM/FW there. But from 64 toward 70, Pele became the playmaker for Brazil NT. Anyhow, if one watch Pele playing, he can easily see he got most of the balls and start attack from middle park. NOT like a tradition SS who just "link up" with MF at a bit higher position. Great players like Pele, Di Stefano, Best, Maraodna Zico, Cruijff Platini ... could play anywhere from main striker to support striker to midfielder or even on the side. Neither Pele nor Puskas were support strikers because they had seldom played with ONE MAIN striker to support! Note that in their time, the formation is very attacking from 2 3 5 to 4 2 4 meaning at least 4,5 attackers up front. Now, the term "striker" and "support striker" ONLY existed by mid 80's following the popularity of the 4 4 2 formation! Which NEVER existed in Pele/Puskas case. (so how can we say he was a great SS?)
@ the Romario fan: 1- I brought 12 lists (Top50/100) of different source with Ronaldo > Romario. Now if you can bring up 2 or more list *with Romario > Ronaldo , to defy 99% cases, can you? 2- You are clearly a Ronaldo HATER, to make your own ignorant speculation like real (Ronaldo came to play WC06 for himself)??? How did you know? were you a bug in Ronaldo's mind? FACT SAID: - Ronaldo was the best striker to lead Brazil as #1 in WC06 QUAL - so NATURALLY he was or should be selected. - Lastly, FAT ronado still PROVED he was still the best striker for Brazil and won Bronze boot with 3goals+1ass LOL (he won games vs Japan and Ghana for Brazil, and assisted Adriano vs Australia! ) Oh I don;t think you ever watch that cup for Romario was not there! LOL
That's the point I wanted to emphasize, in those old tactical systems not all the teams had the same roles for each specific position and sometimes they didn't have a player in a specific role in their starting lineup because the dynamics of their game. During his golden years at Santos, Pelé was the main offensive guy but not the playmaker in our modern terms. That team played with the 4-2-4 tactical system and didn't have a classic playmaker in its rows, it was a team that was out of context in classical terms because any of its offensive players could take easily that role (Mengálvio, Dorval, Pepe or Pelé) but none of them remained as such, that was part of its great revolution in South American football, a messy scheme that shone. But even if you try to identify the closest player to being the classic playmaker I'd say should be Mengálvio, Pelé was more identified in their partnership in the attack with Coutinho, he was the catalyst of the forward line as creator of his own opportunities as the frenzied finisher into the penalty box.
An example of a support striker who starts attack from a deep position is Lionel Messi, he easily is often at the same line with the midfielders and have some playmaking abilities like as an accurate deep pass, but he's still mainly a forward because his passage in that area isn't due a ball retainer task, but a more associative figure and more vertical in the offensive raids, more familiar with the definition into the penalty box. A similar case is, for example, Wayne Rooney, a player with different characteristics but so polyfunctional to play from a deep position opening and making his own way to the attack. When they played as classic playmakers they couldn't perform at the same level because their movements weren't so horizontal and wasted his scoring abilities (see the first two matches of Argentina in the 2011 Copa América). Those are cases like Pelé, but obviously the Brazilian was so extraordinary player to not be mediocre in any offensive position.
Obviously, we aren't talking about the roles in a theoretical terms, but practical. For example, at 20's and 30's the term striker didn't exist, but we all know that the Uruguayan Pedro Petrone (aka "El Artillero") was a perfect definition of that role by itself at that time.
You are correct, but your words are lost on JamesBH, he actually believes Pele scored over 1,200 goals playing behind the halfway line and sometimes in goal
[It was against the likes of the Brazil All-Girl Scouts XI and the All-Argentina Burger King Employees touring side... ]
don;t worry, they (Romario's fan boys) are still BITTER LOST in other post so they tried their "cheap shots"
Santos played most of times: 4 2 4 (Dorval was up) and only some time as 4 3 3 (either Pele or Dorval deeper against stronger teams) In fact you can get more info from here: " Worldclass coaching - revolution of Brazil formation since 50s" http://assets.ngin.com/attachments/...he_Tactical_Evolution_of_Brazilian_Soccer.pdf
we? who? a few of you: Gilmour, greatstrijer, Leadleader and yourself??? MINORITY deserved the world STUBBORN to - defy the LOGIC - to against the MOUTAIN HIGH opinion of >99% population!