World Football Historic Center (Dearman Blogspot)

Discussion in 'Players & Legends' started by Dearman, Aug 7, 2013.

  1. afar

    afar Member+

    Apr 26, 2007
    Wow, how did I end up in this thread? ;)

    Oh, Arg win was a conspiracy, and Messi just isn't that good.

    Carry on, then. :)
     
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  2. Dearman

    Dearman Member

    Red Star Belgrade
    Argentina
    Feb 24, 2010
    Bangkok, Thailand
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Country:
    Thailand
    I saw the Ecuadorians have an effort to stop Messi but they had no sufficient individual ability to success when their defensive teamwork is rather aimless and cannot be dependent.

    Although Ecuador sent its A team, Argentina would be worst at draw and finished at 5th but the point is Messi would not score hat trick too easy. I have acknowleded about it and I try not to overrate him in this qualifying performance.
     
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  3. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    Argentina’s wIn was facilitated by the incompetence of an inexperienced young Ecuadorean side that had various players partying the night before. It was a charade that game.

    He’s great in his comfort zone but outside he struggles to be determinant like great players should be capable of doing.
     
  4. afar

    afar Member+

    Apr 26, 2007
    Lol, just lol.
     
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  5. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #830 PuckVanHeel, Oct 14, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2017
    I'd like to hear your thoughts on this;

    The 1960s to 1980s World Cups aside, what you say definitely seems to be the case with Cristiano Ronaldo, Neymar and Messi, but at times we still see this happening with the 'second rate' stars like Ibrahimovic, Reus or Hazard (note: talking here about the World Cup and European Championships).

    FIFA has been active lately with deleting footage, so sadly no full compilation, but this is a snapshot of the Costa Rica match where 8 official fouls were registered, as well as at least a handful dubious moments where no call was made by the Uzbekistan referee.

    http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x64jqk3

    Got reminded of this because after the Sweden match they showed a compilation of his national team displays (also that great run vs Chile that nearly became a goal). Even in the 'diving match' against Mexico there was a moment in the fist half where his ankles were hit twice in the Mexican penalty box but no foul was given (I'm not exaggerating this - it were definitely two hits on the ankle in succession).

    Your thoughts on this?

    N.B. above video shows him making a 'throw away' gesture but he tells to the reporter it was because he felt he could make the difference in the last 10 minutes of regular time, but his team mates ignored him too often for his liking and went for a different passing option. It was not because of the bumps/fouls/referee. Interestingly, with future knowledge, he nearly did this vs Mascherano too of course in the last 5 minutes of regular time in the semi final (which Mascherano blocked while injuring himself).
     
  6. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Country:
    Argentina
    You must be joking, you brought my comments on this match to the Argentine forum which resulted in the ensuing attacks from various posters there. I had not posted them there because I knew it would result in that.

    It seems you follow the @Dearman Project even if silently?

    I commend you for not falling to the hype this time, which you succumb to on occasion.

    Just let it go, you were also attacked for saying this elsewhere. Messi will play at the WC, let's see what he does at the highest stage. But I don't expect any hat tricks.
     
  7. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Country:
    Argentina
    Why do you love Messi so much? Should Brazil and Argentina meet at the WC final, it will prove uncomfortable for you rooting against the "Messiah".
     
  8. celito

    celito Member+

    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Country:
    Brazil
    I am don't love Argentina. I wanted them to make it so I can see them lose in the WC. But I do like Messi because I am Barca fan.

    But I am just being objective . No bias. I don't see what you're talking about at all. It just sounds like you have a problem giving him any credit because youg live Maradona.
     
  9. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    I think certain players may have a bad rap for deceiving refs, like Neymar, and maybe Robben was one of those players that were advised beforehand by FIFA to not fall for their theatrics. This makes it difficult for officials to really determine what is and isn’t a foul in their discretion.
     
  10. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    Venezuela was using many of their successful youth players and are in a serious long-term project to improve. USA is in shambles and just don’t have good quality to even defeat minnows since they themselves are one. But this Ecuadorean side was put forth on the march, with players that probably won’t represent the NT ever again. They were so bad that not even Argentina’s second-division sides from la nacional B would purchase their services. The fact that they were out partying demonstrating a complete lack of seriousness is a disgrace to their fans and to the professionalism in the sport.
     
  11. Dearman

    Dearman Member

    Red Star Belgrade
    Argentina
    Feb 24, 2010
    Bangkok, Thailand
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Country:
    Thailand
    http://xtraimmortal.blogspot.com/2014/02/Skill-Evaluation.html

    The WFHC last project “The Skill Evaluation” plan has been adjusted intensively.

    I decide to divide project into two parts 1) Total Skill and 2) specialized skill (as previous). The first part is added to improve ranking of players’ skill and also facilitate the second part when I will sit the time machine to watch around 400 historical full-matches for analysis and the project time is also extended to more than one year. Previously, I watched some games irregularly in entertaining purpose without any analysis. Now I have started the project for 4 days. Now it’s time to get away from paper work and switch to analyze from Video.
     
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  12. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Country:
    Argentina
    Are all skill functions weighted equally? For example, destroying should not be as important as marking, many of the great defenders preferred to use positioning to beat opponents. Likewise, aerial shooting is only relevant for players who transit the penalty box.
     
  13. Dearman

    Dearman Member

    Red Star Belgrade
    Argentina
    Feb 24, 2010
    Bangkok, Thailand
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Country:
    Thailand
    There is a provided proportional skill criteria for each position in this thread http://xtraimmortal.blogspot.com/2013/04/Total-Skill.html

    Anyway, the ranking in this thread is to be improved in the current project.
     
  14. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Country:
    Argentina
    Good breakdown however why is physical weighed more than offensive skills for fullbacks? Even for center-backs, I would weigh them equal at most.
     
  15. Dearman

    Dearman Member

    Red Star Belgrade
    Argentina
    Feb 24, 2010
    Bangkok, Thailand
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Country:
    Thailand
    Physical ability is related to both defensive and offensive comprises speed, agility, strength and stamina. I rate physical around 30 %
    Anyway, this criteria is never settled down and open for further adjustment.
     
  16. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Country:
    Argentina
    You may want to ask in Xtratime to hear suggestions on the breakdown. For me, physical characteristics should not weigh higher than skills.
     
  17. Dearman

    Dearman Member

    Red Star Belgrade
    Argentina
    Feb 24, 2010
    Bangkok, Thailand
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Country:
    Thailand
    #842 Dearman, Oct 23, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2017
    OK, in the last 10 days, I have an intensive full-matches watching activity. I try to capture every extraordinary or mistake scene of players’ performance and record in-progress skill point onto my format. It is anyway rather tedious for the unclear videos mostly in the 1950s that even number of players are difficult to see and need to replay or listen to commentator instead that is required a high patience. Now I contribute some of my point of view on these matches. Below table is a list of the matches I have watched and my view of man of the match selection.

    Match Summary.png

    1950s - early 1960s (Part I International Country)

    1953 Match of Century (Hungary VS England) : In England side, I mainly focus on Stanley Matthews. He was already 40 years old and is as slow as I expect. His acceleration and crossing was always effective but his style of play was limited on the right-flank so he almost not create any chance to score by himself.

    Including 1954 semi-final match, Sandor Kocsis was really a great header but his jumping was not remarkably high mostly take advantage of opponent by his positional sense. His technique in touching the passed ball is disappointed anyway.

    In related matches for Brazil 1958 and 1962, Djalma Santos is impressive in only his techniively que, position and agility but other than that is nothing to praise. He liked to pass inaccurate long ball and even made a funny mistake when he tried to volley the ball forward to midfield area but it is more than 90 degree misdirected to his own dangerous penalty area. Djalma’s tackle scene is very rare to see although he had many opportunities to intercept. He always liked to cover his zone. His speed was also not relatively high and his reading ability was also limited when I saw he couldn’t cut the inside-passed ball that was actually reachable from his position. Nilton Santos always made an accurate passing and great position but his balance is rather problematic and he did not know how to tackle in the right position.

    I watch all knock-out games of Brazil in 1962 World Cup. Garrincha is seen to be a Man of the match for all. Aside from his phenomenon agile and fast dribbler, He is unexpectedly a very good header and his left-foot is also effective. In match against England, he failed to drib pass English players 3 times but compensate by his scoring important goals. Other focus is Didi and Zito. Didi could be a perfect playmaker if he was not too slow. Zito is aggressive, agile and faster than I expected.

    In 1958, Several times Just Fontaine lost the ball when he was trying to get pass defenders by himself. He is really not a great dribbler but his shooting is powerful with a great direction. Although France concede 5 goals, I don’t see any mistake of Robert Jonquet but he might be a bit too slow.

    The 1960 Euro Final is the most boring match for me. I believe Soviet Union would not win the title of all European nations participated. The games is too inert. There are many big names to expect great performance but only Sekularac and Metreveli are outstanding enough. Yashin had a few times to show his ability. Netto always stays deep area and almost not went support offensive game so I don’t see any technical ability of him. Mikhail Meskhi is nothing special. Bora Kostic was a slow winger but consistently made an accurate long pass.

    The 1964 Euro Final is much more entertained than the previous one. Amancio and L.Suarez are an attractive players that were always agile and elegant in technical implementation. Anyway, many times L.Suarez made an inaccurate passing but he creates a ton of chances to his teammates as well. For USSR team, the best one is Varely Voronin who was very good in box-to-box role. He was strong and a great creator. Combined with the 1960 match, the most disappointed one is Valentine Ivanov who is seen to be too slow and lack of creative idea.

    Important Update

    Although this is skill evaluation project, it is also related to performance ranking if any of them are significantly deviated from what I rated. In conclusion of this set, the important update is Djalma Santos is ranked down from 11th to 14th and lost his RB place to Thuram in All-Time World XI.

    Igor Netto is also reviewed. He finished in top ten Ballon'Dor only once. Anyway there is a magazine rating show he was also in his prime during the 1st half 1950s in USSR league but his international career is really not special. He has been ranked down from 19th to 26th for now.

    I will update the progression in every 10 days.
     

    Attached Files:

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  18. Dearman

    Dearman Member

    Red Star Belgrade
    Argentina
    Feb 24, 2010
    Bangkok, Thailand
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Country:
    Thailand
    #843 Dearman, Nov 2, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2017
    The 1950s to early 1960s skill evaluation summary (Part II)

    Match Summary I.png


    For the last 10 days, I have gather additional 12 full-matches between late 1950s and 1st half 1960s.

    I’d start talking about Brazil as the 1958 world cup winner. As I watched their style of play and teamwork ability, I think they’re second to the 1970 team in overall particularly creativity and coordinative compatibility but it is interesting what if Dino Sani, Cantoheiro and Altafini were included in the first eleven regularly and strengthen the team level. In 1963 European Cup Final, Altafini’s playing is always entertained to see. He should be one of the most complete strikers ever. Dino Sani played well in normal level.

    In related two matches, Danny Blanchflower as a talisman is seen to be weak in physical. He is not fast, strong and not outstandingly agile. He is a main creative force of Tottenham and also had a great ball interception. Dave Mackay is not only great in defensive but also performs accurate long passing consistently. Regarding Jimmy Greaves, he several times get down to deep-forward area to find the chance of assist or shooting but I think his skill in this role is limited and incomparable to his performance as a poacher. He is still categorized in striker list although his position could fit to forward definition.

    Uwe Seeler is also seen in two matches. Hamburger at early 1960s has no stars aside from him. Seeler is very aggressive, fast and great positioning. His goal against Barcelona in 1961 European Cup semi-final is an unintentional shot from the edge of the field and it is highly questionable about ability of Antonio Ramallets who not only conceded this goal but there are also no scene to prove he is among the best Spanish keeper ever as being widely regarded. Probably his 5 times Zamora Trophy conduct him to be overrated.

    Only half of full-match available for Sivori footage but it has been validated that he is among the best dribbler ever. Sivori could drib pass opponent by straight forward confrontation not try to move outside. John Charles also played well enough when he move down to deep-forward area.

    One again Leonel Sanchez is disappointed in 1962 World Cup third place match. His bronze ball from retrospective rating by FIFA is not deserved. The Trio “Galic-Skoblar-Sekularac” is kept an eye on. Galic is not qualified as he is not good in games participation at all. Skoblar is complete but he was till young and it was not his prime during the tournament. Sekularac is great in technique but he too often try to take advantage of his body to shield the ball because of his slow speed.

    Benfica is always entertained to watch. For me Coluna is man of the match in both 1961 and 1962 European Cup final. It is a bit strange that he only scored from long-shot effectively or shot wide much out of the target. He is also seen to have a better defensive quality than Didi.

    The Catenaccio Inter Milan facilitates Sandro Mazzola to play comfortably. He is an advanced midfielder with a great creator of opportunity to assist or score and for me he should play alongside Rivera without any problem. Luis Suarez is much more reliable than his time at Barcelona when he too often made inaccurate passing. Facchetti style likes a free-role full-back as he likes to conduct the ball inside to defensive midfield area to find more space. As he is a right-foot player, it is very questionable if he would be effective enough to be the right-back in all-time world XI. In match against Bologna, the team seems to be too fatigue. Giacomo Bulgarelli is very good in ball winner and also have a good vision. Helmut Haller is very limited and have a few participation in that game.

    Between 1950s and 1960s, there are around 7 matches left to watch and total available full-matches of this period is around 30 games only.


    Important Update

    I try to review if there is any winger to replace Leonel Sanchez in top 50 offensive laterals. I found I underrate Jurgen Grabowski who I didn’t take in a full implementation program. When I just take, he is good enough to be ranked at 46th.
     
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  19. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Is one dissapointing third place match enough to drop Leonel Sanchez out, instead of a player who was only rated 'world class' for half a year by his own country?
     
  20. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Robert Pires?
     
  21. Dearman

    Dearman Member

    Red Star Belgrade
    Argentina
    Feb 24, 2010
    Bangkok, Thailand
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Country:
    Thailand
    Actually not one but Leonel Sanchez also rarely contributed to Chile in semi-finalist against Brazil. The main point of replacement is I omitted Grabowski in implementation. Now he has a higher point than L.Sanchez's previos score. Note that standard of candidate in winger list in the range of 46th - 50th is relataively low in comparison to other positions so consistent number of international-class could be adequate.
     
  22. Dearman

    Dearman Member

    Red Star Belgrade
    Argentina
    Feb 24, 2010
    Bangkok, Thailand
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Country:
    Thailand
    His career is much effected by injury. He is now around 90th winger of all-time in my list.
     
  23. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Oh man, I'd love to see a list of 89 wingers better than Pires.
     
  24. Dearman

    Dearman Member

    Red Star Belgrade
    Argentina
    Feb 24, 2010
    Bangkok, Thailand
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Country:
    Thailand
  25. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    That's an interesting reason, considering Pires actually played more games than many of the players you put above him.
     

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