World Football Historic Center (Dearman Blogspot)

Discussion in 'Players & Legends' started by Dearman, Aug 7, 2013.

  1. Dearman

    Dearman Member

    Argentina
    Feb 24, 2010
    Bangkok, Thailand
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Nat'l Team:
    Thailand
    Recently I work on improvement of positional ranking in all-time national squad that is available in only big nations and regional unions. Also, the implementation in all-time players ranking is applied to this series and adjust based on the more importance in national team career part.

    http://xtralegend.blogspot.com

    The players selection work in this series has long been influenced by advice or the existed works of a number of experts/specialists. To date, Only nation that have no experts to advise is Spain.

    Now, The players performance evaluation development project has been officially completed. I’d rest for a while to improve my English listening (now get only 385 of TOEIC Score) and speaking, lol. I plan to start Skill evaluation project in the next 1 -2 months and will spend around a half of year to complete. I plan to finalize the entire project at around the first quarter of next year.

    WFHC History and Plan

    WFHC History & Plan.png
     
  2. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    I'll review as many as I can and give you my feedback. I'll start with Argentina.

    According to your post "Also, the implementation in all-time players ranking is applied to this series and adjust based on the more importance in national team career part."
    Then why is Helenio Herrera named as the all-time Argentina manager, when he never managed the Argentina NT or even achieved success with another NT? Also, Marcelo Bielsa should be on the manager's list.

    I also feel that Gabriel Batistuta is ranked too high, he should never be ahead of Mario Kempes when importance is on national team career. I also feel Lionel Messi does not quite belong on the first XI based on NT performance, though his name adds a fearfulness to that lineup. Roberto Perfumo's international career is close to Oscar Ruggieri, and he can arguably replace him for the starting lineup.
     
  3. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    Some observations.

    If the best XI is based on club career accomplishments then it is understandable but if it is based on NT performances and accomplishments then it does not.

    Enrique García was the best left winger in his time and the best the NT ever produced but is not included.

    Di Stefano would be dropped due to insufficient games.

    El tucho Mendez was pivotal in 3 South American championships for the NT in the 1940s but is overlooked.

    Antonio Sastre, considered the most complete functional player and perhaps the closest to challenging Moreno's throne in his day, and pivotal in South American triumphs is also overlooked. Instead turncoat, Luis Monti, makes it. Rumors have it that in the 1930 WC final he punked out during halftime when Argentina was ahead by complying to death threats and folded instead of man up and winning that title like true leaders are supposed to do. Ofc he would later deny it.

    Admirers of Salomon would probably had him exchanged spots over Ruggeri. Salomon was at the helm of the team back in his day and the bearing flag of the NT.

    Batistuta was decisive in 2 Copa America titles in 91 and 93 and the goal scorer that sent Argentina to the 1994 WC in the playoffs against Australia.

    Messi, pending a memorable performance by bringing the title back to Buenos Aires in Russia 2018, trails other more meritorious title winning players.
     
  4. Dearman

    Dearman Member

    Argentina
    Feb 24, 2010
    Bangkok, Thailand
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Nat'l Team:
    Thailand
    I wrote that NT part became higher important but the main procedures is still used as old. The manager who was limited in NT opportunity is deducted some points but their club career remains the majority part of performance calculation.

    Aside from the 1978 WC tournament, Kempes scored no goal in 11 world cup games of the 1974 and 1982 tournament. In Copa America, he only scored against Venezuela 3 goals in two matches that Argentine team totally scored 16 goals.

    Roberto Perfumo is considered as a better performer than Ruggeri in club career but Ruggeri was a main instrument of the great Argentine defensive system that led the team reached two finalists in related World Cup.
     
  5. Dearman

    Dearman Member

    Argentina
    Feb 24, 2010
    Bangkok, Thailand
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Nat'l Team:
    Thailand
    As I already explain the criteria between club and NT as above post, I'll start at Sastre discussion and descending topics.

    Your information on Monti is definitely useful. I see Monti was the best player in his position in the 1930 and 1934 tournament even the competitiveness of this position was not so high. He also reached the 1928 Olympic final with Argentina.

    Sastre seems not the best player in his position in 2 Copa America tournaments he participated (1935 and 1941). In 1935, the most remarkable inside-forward of the tournament should be Anibal Cioca who was a key man to lead Uruguay won the title. In 1937, Sastre got down to half-back position. Vicente De La Mata is arguably not deserved to be the best player of the tournament as he played only 105 minutes through the tournament and if not Sastre might be deserved. In 1941, He returned to advanced position but Moreno and Pedernera became to share influential level on Argentine team and Sergio Livigstone, a goalkeeper, won best player of the tournament. Unfortunately, Sastre ended his NT career when he decided to move for Sao Paulo.

    That is only NT point of view but club career is another decisive factor that is rather difficult to make a conclusion.

    Jose Salomon, this player has long been doubtful for his quality. He is widely regarded as the best South American defender in war-time but I think standard of defenders during 1940s in South America is questionable. Football was extremely offensive and his club (Racing) conceded a larger number of goals than average value against finished rank in most seasons.
    I really like to acknowledge more information about him.
     
  6. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    It is difficult to undermine this player because he was so decisive in bringing a first world title to his country, but I do agree if you take away that one year he has very little else that supports his position in a best starting XI.

    His only CA campaign in 1975 was mediocre at best. The other major events in 1974 and 1982 he looked like a walking zombie. He did have some excellent performances in friendlies but those don't carry much weight in my view, even if they had more prestige in his time.

    But how many Argentinain players can claim that they decided a WC title like he did? After 1978 he became a national hero.
     
  7. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    Where did you read that information of the 1935 and 1941 events?

    I can look more into Jose Salomón but I will have to search for it.

    For the NT there was a poll in the 1960s for the best starting XI conducted by the magazine el Grafico. I can look into that info when I get the chance and perhaps open a thread that will shed light to how valuable pre-1960s players were viewed for Argentina. All I can remember was Moreno was number 1 most voted and I think Salomon made the top 11.
     
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  8. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    I'm not questioning his qualities but if he did cave under pressure of threats then he should be completely disregarded because he failed to represent his country with honour. I also don't hold in high regard a player that goes to represent another NT.
     
  9. Dearman

    Dearman Member

    Argentina
    Feb 24, 2010
    Bangkok, Thailand
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Nat'l Team:
    Thailand
    The 1935 and 1941 is just my personal implication from line up and match report in rsssf.

    In 1935, Ciocca scored both opening and winning goal to beat Chile in the second match. The decisive match saw Argentina was beaten by Uruguay 3-0 and Sastre failed to score any goal in advanced position.

    Interesting about poll result that Salomon is placed very high. I really like to see the entire result.
     
  10. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Renato Cesarini should rank ahead in that case, you don't even mention him which is a major omission.

    Perfumo's performance at WC66 is as good or better than Ruggieri's at WC86, although I rank Ruggier's WC90 ahead of Perfumo's WC74. But I don't think that is enough to place him ahead in an overall ranking.
     
  11. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    You don't hold Alfredo DiStefano in high regard either?
     
  12. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    As a player for what he represented for the game yes, but as a man that decided to play for another NT no.

    In the case of Luis Monti there are claims from fellow teammates that he tanked the final of 1930 and returned home with a barrage of insults from the people of his country. He decided to leave the country and play for the NT of Italy.

    A true disgrace, considered a coward and traitor. No one in Argentina could respect a guy like that.
     
  13. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Interesting, I have never heard this story. Where did the threats come from? Who reported this incident?
     
  14. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    This info appeared later on in El Grafico. The story goes like this:

    Before the final of 1930, it is said that he looked very nervous and withdrawn. Besides, he had been seen crying in the locker room and it was not exactly out of emotion. The reason for this was that in the days before the final the player had been threatened that if Argentina won, Monti and his family would suffer.

    His teammate Pancho Varallo was clear: "If a Uruguayan fell, he would lift him up. Monti should not have played that final, he was scared to death."

    Argentina had the lead by halftime but then lost 4-2 and Monti had saved his life but the Argentines hated him forever. The fans began calling him a ******, a coward, and other expletives whenever they crossed his path.

    Therefore, when months later he received a proposal to nationalize himself to Italian and play with the national team, he did not think twice and accepted. However, time showed that it was not a coincidence that he played with the 'azzurri'.

    It has been claimed that Mussolini was obsessed with his country winning the World Cup in 1934 and was convinced that with Monti in his team that would be more possible.

    In fact, it is said that the threats that he received before playing the World Cup final in 1930 came from Italians who wanted to create an atmosphere of tension around the player so that, with public opinion against him, he accepted the proposition to play for Italy. The spies Marco Scaglia and Luciano Benti were the ones who carried out the entire process of intimidation. It is even rumored that one of them said the following words about Monti before starting the final of 1930: "In 90 minutes we will know if we will have to kill him, his mother or offer him money to defend Italy in the next World".

    In the end Argentina lost, Monti had cost Argentina the championship by dishonoring the duties of representing his country to the fullest.

    4 years later it is said he received death threats again but this time he could not lose. Mussolini had ordered them to win at all costs.

    In any event, if these accusations were true, Luis Monti deserved no credit and recognition for representing the Argentinian shirt. He was a disgrace to his teammates and to his country.
     
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  15. Dearman

    Dearman Member

    Argentina
    Feb 24, 2010
    Bangkok, Thailand
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Nat'l Team:
    Thailand
    I really forgot R.Cesarini.

    Not only you but msioux suggested me Perfumo is clearly more deserved. Ruggeri is at least much better than Perfumo in aerial game.

    @Vegan10, I'm looking for your suggestion on this point if Perfumo should be a starter indtead of Ruggeri. Thanks in advanced.
     
  16. Dearman

    Dearman Member

    Argentina
    Feb 24, 2010
    Bangkok, Thailand
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Nat'l Team:
    Thailand
    R. Cesarini should be more nationalized as Italian than Argentine. He was born in Italy, his parents nationality is not specified in article but I just guess one is Italian and another is Argentine. He was growing up in Argentina, first played for Argentina but only 2 games and then he was capped for Italy 11 games. In overall score, he is closer to Italian.
     
  17. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    #717 Pipiolo, Jun 17, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2017
    @Vegan10 , what do you think of the Argentina rankings by the @Dearman ? To me they are mostly correct but there are some notable errors. Biggest one is probably putting Helenio Herrera as Argentina all-time manager.

    Fascinating stuff, like from a movie. You can't put the Italians above these shenanigans either.
     
  18. Dearman

    Dearman Member

    Argentina
    Feb 24, 2010
    Bangkok, Thailand
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Nat'l Team:
    Thailand
    As I said, these all-time national rankings remain considering club part as a major role although it became lesser than other series. Due the fact that international country part is not compulsory for managerial career since it is depend on their option. Not like players who must play in NT games if they're great enough. I want to include all all-time greats that belonged to any nation not specific on only NT games performance.
     
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  19. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    The strongest argument for Cesarini being Italian is that he was born in Italy, the caps are not relevant as you consider Monti, Orsi, Guaita, DiStefano, Rial, Sivori as Argentines, which is correct. In regards to Cesarini, he became a footballer in Argentina but he can be regarded as Italian.

    Other managers that need to be considered for the all-time list are Jose Maria Minella, Manuel Giudice, Osvaldo Zubeldia, Omar Pastoriza and Juan Carlos Lorenzo.
     
  20. Dearman

    Dearman Member

    Argentina
    Feb 24, 2010
    Bangkok, Thailand
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Nat'l Team:
    Thailand
    Well, all names you mention were born in Argentina, growing in Argentina and played for Argentina first except Hector Rial who played for only Spain. Let me show my criteria of players nationalization.

    1) Players who played for only one nation at least 10 games is eligible to be identified in that nation regardless of other identified factors. If capped less than 10 games, switching to the second criteria.

    2) Players who played for more than one nation or being conditioned from the first item will be taken into the identifying scoring system.

    Born Nation (1 Point), Race (1 Point, 0.5 of each if parent nationality is different), The growing nation (1 Point), the first capped nation (1 Point), the longevity in each capped nations (2 point, calculated by ratio, if capped less than 10 games, the total given point will be calculated by appearances divided by 10 ))

    Example for Cesarini and Rial

    Nationalization.png


    Regarding Managers, there is also no other candidates came closed to Herrera in overall club career. That's why Hererra is selected to be a manager. NT games played in a few matches and you have a high opportunity to fortunately win the title with a big nation that was full of great players resource.

    In your suggested managers, Zubeldia and J.C.Lorenzo is already named in my top 50 managers ever. Other than that, only Jose Maria Minella is impressive enough. He won a number of league titles but not have a chance to prove himself in int.club competition except the 2 matches in 1947 Copa Aldao.
     
  21. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    Ok, here we have two very strong personalities that don't take dirt from anyone. Rough players, each in his own era.

    At club level they both were successful but for the NT it was the opposite. So I will focus on that part.

    First Perfumo:

    For many Argentines Perfumo was the best number 2 the country ever produced. He was temperamental, tough, great at anticipating plays, organized and secure.

    He started his career in midfield on the left flank, but had to retreat to the fullback position out of necessity because his manager in Racing, Jose Pizzuti, ordered him to switch. He excelled in that role and was called up to the NT and became the "mariscal" (marshal) of the team.

    He played in two world cups. In 1966 he played well to the point that legendary broadcaster, José María Muñoz, labeled him "the Mariscal" as in marshal of the team, which would become his logo.

    For the 1970 WC Argentina failed to qualify and Perfumo was at the helm of that debacle. In the decisive game against Peru he and the entire team were criticized for performing poorly.

    He did not play in the qualifiers of the 1974WC but did play in the WC. As captain he took the brunt of the responsibility for their suffering in their entire backline. He suffered one of the greatest humiliating defeats at a WC, where he literally acknowledged afterwards, that he feared if he did not deliberately kill time off the clock that Argentina were in for an historic thrashing at the hands of an opponent, the Netherlands. That was the last image of him going out with a thump. After the WC he would never represent the NT again.

    In conclusion, in 1966, even though he was solid, he was caught off guard when Geoff Hurst scored the match winner for England in the quarterfinals (although to his defense Rattin had already been sent off which stretched the defense wide open). He failed to play well leading to the finals in Mexico 1970 and was the captain that had his team sink into misery in 1974.

    In other words, Perfumo at the NT is associated with defeats and from being unfortunately a part of the only team in Argentina's history that failed to qualify to the WC in 1970. To his defense, his teams at times were a mess, managed poorly, preparation was poor leading up to world cups, but he did not play well either in important games.

    I will get to Ruggeri soon.
     
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  22. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    Ruggeri is one of the most celebrated winners in Argentinian NT history. But he played for better teams, with the prime world star and featured in many more competitions.

    He was not a regular leading up to Mexico '86, rarely was part of the qualifiers, but made the starting side that won the event. He played well, with a standout game against Italy in the group stage, where he was rated as the best by El Grafico.

    The Copa Américas in 1987 and 1989 he did not play that well. He wasn't fit during WC90 but fought hard and marked out some of the best opposing forwards, particularly Rudi Voeller in the first half of the final, but had to be substituted because his body couldn't hold up.

    With Maradona out he became the captain by 1991. He was the backbone of their defense that won back to back titles in the Copa Americas in 1991 and 1993.

    From there on his level of play significantly dropped. During the WC qualifiers he played poorly and was on the end of the biggest humiliation in Buenos Aires when Colombia thrashed them 5-0. In USA '94 he continued to fail and was heavily criticized as one of the main culprits. He would never represent the NT again.

    In conclusion, a top class defender, with imposing presence, who was temperamental, strong in the air, fearless, a winner. He was probably the last great center-back Argentina produced.
     
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  23. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    I'll get to this after I think it over.
     
  24. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    Ok, if we simply take all into account, the fame, accomplishments, revolution to the game, impact/importance, skill set, longevity, peak level, historical transcendence, propaganda, then there is probably 6 players that are cemented in stone in a top 10.

    By 1980 it was established by Argentine journalists that there were 5 players that were generally viewed as the greatest: Sastre, Pedernera, Moreno, Di Stefano and Maradona.

    The inclusion of Maradona was the most debated because he was so young. But he made the list for what he had accomplished individually by the age of 20 by December 1980. 116 goals in 166 appearances for Argentinos Juniors. 10 goals in 22 appearances for the NT and the leader to the first youth WC NT title in 1979 for AFA's trophy cabinet. But it was his abilities that were so marveled that made him virtually a part of class of past legends. Over time there was no doubt he would ratify his position amongst the best with the entire decade ahead of him.

    Lionel Messi becomes the 6th greatest of all time for what he has accomplished and represented in the past 10 years for Barcelona and the NT. In this modern era with all the hoopla and hype surrounding players, with super teams, with the rules that favor offensive players, he has been consistently one of the standout players of his generation and arguably the defining player of his time (although Cristiano's followers would oppose this).

    So we have these untouchable top 6 in chronological order by age:
    1. Sastre
    2. Moreno
    3. Pedernera
    4. Di Stefano
    5. Maradona
    6. Messi
    By acclamation a top 10 without these would leave a vacancy. Then it becomes a serious debate who would be included.

    Prewar players like Seoane, Cherro and Puecelle were often mentioned as the first true greats but it was in a time that football was still not professional. Enrique García was another mythical figure that was spoken of as the best winger Argentina had. In more modern times Kempes was key in Argentina's first WC title and had solid moments in his career in Argentina and Spain but performed poorly in 3 out of 4 NT major events. He also declined young by the age of 28.

    As for the top 6, it was said that Antonio Sastre represented the total footballer before it became famous. It is said he could play in any position well, and that he even brought new ideas to Brazilian football as well, according to Brazilian manager Brandao.

    Pedernera was considered technically a maestro that could excel in different roles and Moreno the prodigious super athlete that had it all.

    These three also triumphed in different countries around the Americas continent.

    Di Stefano was the first man that truly represented Argentina across the Atlantic with an impact in a way that no other Argentine had been able to do. Then Maradona arrived and then came Messi.

    Now strictly on NT merits, several of these players should be omitted in replace of other less renowned names but more worthy representatives that obtained higher levels of play/impact that delivered titles.

    I believe that players that won silverware with decisive contributions should obviously be ranked ahead of those that came up short even if performing well.

    The manager question is a tricky one. On one hand the most successful for the NT is Stabile, Menotti and Bilardo.

    Stabile was at the helm for two decades when Argentina was the most successful in South America. But failed horribly in WC58. He was virtually a puppet that placed players by what the press demanded. He poorly prepared the squad without any knowledge of their opponents and still lived in the past with a 2-3-5 formation while Europeans were already utilizing 4-2-4.

    In my view in the 1940s Argentina would have won those tournaments without him. He was very successful managing Racing in the late 1940s to early 50s.

    Menotti was important because he chose players based on his assessments and convictions. He did not prioritize players only from the top brass nor from pressure from the press but looked for the right balance regardless of which club a player was from. He won the WC at the men's level and youth level. He managed the NT and took it out from the abyss by winning the WC and first major title for Argentina in 19 years. But controversy surrounds Argentina '78 and he failed to manage the team to repeat 4 years later out of home soil. His management at Barcelona, Boca Juniors and for European clubs were failures. He did succeed by building a solid side in the early 70s at Huracán.

    Bilardo arrived to the NT after having had managed Estudiantes with success but his method of play was criticized by former manager, Menotti, and the press. He was really resisted by the people. The 1986 WC win shut people's mouths. But the criticism returned after unsuccessful results in the 1987 and 1989 Copa Americas. However, he had made it clear that he would use those events to prepare for the WC, he didn't care if they really won or not. This was seen as absurd. Terrible results ensued leading up to the WC. Somehow Argentina made in back to the final in 1990 and Bilardo retired from the NT and was honored by El Grafico afterward for achieving the unprecedented: two consecutive final appearances. He managed other teams during the 90s but it was a failure.

    Helenio Herrera was successful abroad but never managed the NT. It is different to represent a country than to coach a club. I really don't know how to assess him properly.
     
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  25. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Found another inconsistency. You placed Ronaldinho above Jairzinho in the wingers list, but lower in the Brazil all-time wingers list.
     

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