PDG ranks Charlton as 11th on his list: https://www.bigsoccer.com/community/...50-players-ever.1066278/page-38#post-28062226 Difficult to compare positions with each other but I tend to agree with RoyOftheRovers his comment that Charlton is well-placed between 20-25. Mister Roy said that as reply to this list: http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/afstop100.html I personally tend to a place between 15 and 20 but is really difficult to compare various positions with each other. But Charlton and Didi were to some degree a comparable type of player so that is easier to compare. My thoughts about a complete head-to-head comparison are laid down in the post above. If Didi had succeeded at Real Madrid then Didi would be ranked higher, because I appreciate it when a player does well at multiple clubs/leagues.
I think when msioux said compilation list he referred to the current overall standings considering all the votes for a top 50 on that thread (combined list that I showed yesterday), so not my own list but the one on 'my' thread that combines everyone's votes. I did notice that msioux, when he voted during late 2010, did put Charlton in 10th place so clearly has had a lot of admiration for him for a while. Talking of compilations , though they do only show moments of course, I think the one for Charlton which I included when I counted down the combined top 50 recently on that thread could be a good one for Dearman to view and consider the points you raised simultaneously (not to say that should make him reconsider if he still feels like Didi is worthy of the higher placing considering all his criteria - I feel like you did a good job though Puck in summing up the abilities that Charlton had to a greater degree and I do think he was a very very good player technically, though of course there have been players in history who showed more wizardary with the ball and some who were better passers of which perhaps Didi was one): Anyway, I think that is a really good chronological summary of Charlton's career highlights. In case Dearman or others haven't seen the similar great one for Best here that is too (I don't know whether Dearman looks at the thread you linked above much for example): Mentioning players with great wizardary I think Best is right up among the best in that respect for sure. I notice now that the same Youtube user created both these videos - great job whoever it is!
I would rate Charlton over George Best too I think so that is a difference with your list PDG but on the other hand I can also see your arguments that Best was even more skilled (dribbling ofc but also things like shooting under severe pressure). On the other hand, I like some other things of your list such as how your rate MvB over Ronaldo even though I'm not sure whether I'd do that too (however, it is 'annoying' that 95% of the lists regard Ronaldo as clearly superior and many even put Romario ahead of him). Your placing of Zico has also been lower as usual but feels about right and sensible though, after considering everything.
Yeah, I think there is a clear difference between my search for an (estimated) 'best' players ranking and Dearman's wide criteria and attempt at a 'greatest' players ranking and with Charlton and Best it probably makes good sense that Best fares better on the former 'best' (not just because it's his name lol!) ranking as compared to a 'greatest' list which will inevitably but quite a big premium on longevity etc. Van Basten might also fare better looking at mainly peak form (though due largely to injuries including the one that finally cut off his career) although to be fair the same could be said for Ronaldo. This could be completely off target btw, but I wonder if the goalscoring exploits of the likes of Messi and the general higher gpg rate in this era can somehow dilute the record of Van Basten and that could be one reason why he was largely rated higher at the end of last century than today (as if doubt is cast retrospectively on how impressive his goal tallies were; of course his International goals total and his 0 goals at Italia 90 still were factors earlier on, but his Serie A/Dutch league records and his Euro 88 which proved he could be a great player at International level maybe overshadowed those things)? I think people realise there are factors that contribute to an era of higher goalscoring than in the 80's going into the 90's, but still maybe his tallies seem somehow less impressive now?
His national team scoring record looks at hindsight also less impressive. At the time of his final national team game this was the situation: http://www.voetbalstats.nl/opstelnedxi.php?wid=491 See the top 10 at the right side. He was sixth, with a few names of the 'stone age' ahead of him and behind him. Eight of the ten names are of the 1950s or earlier. Within that context sixth was quite good back then. Whereas today it is held against him. The same is maybe also true for Ronaldo his 96/97 season at FC Barcelona.
Yeah, good point. I suppose from a Dutch perspective Bergkamp's record was not lesser though wheras at Club level that wasn't the case and Bergkamp's reputation was based on much more than goals (Van Basten was always seen as a/the most complete centre-forward and a great team player too though). And from a world perspective there were plenty of players with better International goal records but none in his era with better Club scoring records (in European competition too, which I didn't mention before so want to clarify) and because of the era people assumed that his records shouldn't be expected to be the same as certain players from the 50's, 60's, 70's I think. Ironically, the one area where Messi and CR7 haven't been so prolific is International football, and actually neither has had a 'Euro 88' yet either. Not to turn this thread into a Messi/era's debate again lol, but I thought these points were relevant to Van Basten.
That is always a problematic point. You positive Cocu is a better one in consistency but there is no agreement of solution to guarantee consistency should beat prime performance. I really accept your raw knowledge to Cruyff but no way I have known how would you give that to take advantage to Zico in domestic by no personal preference as long as you cannot still explain season by season of your rating and what I just receive your answer is seemingly a overall estimation. Certainly, you should not say it is a joke that Zico is slightly better than Cruyff in domestic level as long as there are many things left about Zico performance season by season. So why don't you think Di Stefano was phenomenon-class in 1962 WCQ ? Actually it is difficulty as Spain played only 4 games against Wales and Morocco but it should be the best highlight of Di Stefano NT career as he played a leading role during his top performance from the 1960 - 1961 season against Wales. and then against Morroco in the late year It is the middle way to put him in either supreme world-class or phenomenon-class. In Dbscalcio, Maradona still receive 6 average point of that season. I remember he was still impressive player in my kid years but surely it is not very clear remember and this should be debatable as well. Eusebio was probably one of the best players during injury but he was still injury and performance is still effected by his injury. I'm not punish Eusebio in Portuguese league in which Hector Yalzade scored the most goal in single season in history of the league altough standard of the league in Yalzade period might be lower than Eusebio's era but Yalzade had a inferior level of team ability also. In 94 Euro qualifying, disappearance by injury normally effect to rating.
I'll stop after this post because I don't want to 'bash' you too much. I agree with Roy that you are generally one of the friendliest posters around. Yes, this is the problem I think. Regarding qualification campaigns and national team tournaments you hand out the 'phenomenal class' rating only for less than a dozen of players. Pele, Maradona, Platini, Garrincha (enormously overrated btw), Cruyff, Zico, Di Stefano, Eusebio, Van Basten. That is only a select group. And you shoe-horn in Di Stefano for four games against Wales and Morocco? Where he scored 2 goals in four games (Spanish NT scored 7 goals in total in those four games). Maybe he was indeed otherworldly, flying over the field all the time - preventing goals and creating tons of chances - but I simply ask for the reasoning behind this. Nothing more, to be honest.
I do not understand this common sense idea that Zico belongs to top 10. And now he is at 6th place on the list. He was a great footballer, I watched him many times. But he had a perfect scenario for him: a world class team during many years and a golden generation in the NT. Yet, he failed to achieve great things. He won 1 Libertadores (when the referee was like playing for Flamengo) and failed miserably on the NT. He was good in WC82, but Falcao was even better than him. People put him in top 10 with the argument of his great skills, so why not put Laudrup and Bergkamp on top 10 too?. In fact, I failed to understand why Zico is regarded as a greater player than Ronaldinho, let alone Ronaldo and Romario.
OK, Ranking in competition level is an additional work and my research is just in a starting point and need to revise like others work of mine, surely some point s must be debatable as it is one of the most difficult works also but I really comply a lot of details to rate. Anyway player could win phenomenon-class in even one games and why not possible for 4 games ?
One World Cup is a minor part of overall history and Zico did play well in the 1982 tournament. M.Laudrup was very inconsistency player in club career and the rating is available in dbscalcio. Bergkamp ? I think his talent is incomparable to Zico and not essential to take performance by competition into account.
Two last thoughts: Maybe the 'tragedy' is that a player like MvB is exactly only remembered for his goals today. Look at youtube for a compilation and it only shows his goals. But like you say here (and also said on PM when you showed a classic game you found), he had many more things to offer for a team. Btw, if you compare his goalscoring with his contemporaries (Papin, Voller, Bebeto, Careca, Klinsmann) it isn't that bad I think. The difference with 'the best one' of his generation, Papin is 0.10 in ratio which is an acceptable margin (many legends weren't the best scorers of their generation). http://football-ratings.blogspot.nl/2012/09/national-team-goalscorers-in-1970s-80s.html You can also see that the Dutch players John Bosman and Bergkamp have a good ratio (and totals). Of course, to some degree that was also the achievement of the 'complete' CF MvB, and like shown in the Bergkamp thread he assisted and pre-assisted his 'successor' a few times - and it is known that he had a good connection with Bosman too (already as Ajax team-mates). So apart from that he was sixth on the ladder, I can also see why he wasn't 'punished' for the perceived low scoring at that time. I hope you can follow what I mean I think other players who are overshadowed by the Messi-Ronaldo duopoly are maybe Thierry Henry and Raul Gonzalez, that it becomes forgotten what they did.
In your offensive midfielders list, Schiaffino and Pedernera should be ranked ahead of Zizinho and Kopa. Stojkovic should be at least top 40, and Rivelino is too high, Cubillas was better than him.
Thanks for look into the ranking. Both Schiaffino and Pedernera won caps much less than other world's legends even they played very well in major tournament. Zizinho much more contribute to his nation than Pedernera. Stojkovic is one of my favorite players but he had only great four seasons in overall club careers and this exceptional case let me to name in honorable mention for fairness. I think Rivelino is much better than Cubillas in playmaking skill and is more useful than Cubillas during ball possession of the team.
The Memorial Museum (Addition) House of FIFA Presidents : FIFA President has never been as famous as superstar but they are certainly an influential personality in football history as a director of football. The Great World Football Stadiums : Rating stadium divided into twice functions are Architectural and Historical. The Memorable Matches : Rating of historical match in both club and NT is based on three functions are attraction, tactic and historical influence. The Football Historic Memorial : Collect World’s photo of legend statues and graves. The Football Trophies : Collect photos of international football trophies. The rest are timeline of football history and a brief history of the tactics.
Positional Hall of Fame is available in xtraimmortal.blogspot.com - Top 50 In Seven Position Rankings New players come in are Cervato, Khurtsilava, Stielike, Bonev, Nyers, Lofthouse. - Era World Positional Ranking - The 10X100 Positional Ranking List (Top 100 players in 10 Category) (This one is very difficult but it has been updated and developed much from the previous list in XT) - Positional Ranking of Footballers' Skill : This rate skill of players in the prime and calculate to find total skill by my criteria table. I have to admit to primarily use pesdatabase as reference in old players. If you'd prefer prime of player than consistency, this one will be matched but I have to say this kind of works is one of the most error among football history works as our brain is always not good enough to make accurate measurement. - The Positional Line : Rank the best defensive line, midfielder line and duo-FW and also the greatest Tri-O. Puskas-Kocsis is by far the best du-o FW in history of the game as both of them played together in Club and NT career.
Schiaffino won the WC, beating Zizinho in the final with a much less fancied team. Pedernera never played in a WC, unfortunately due to AFA's politics against FIFA, it's true this hurts his all-time ranking (same with Moreno) but I feel his contribution to making River Plate into a legendary club is considerably higher than what Zizinho achieved at club level. Stokjovic's club career was not particularly outstanding, but his contribution to Yugoslavia is unquestioned. He was always the side's best player, even when Savicevic, Mijatovic, Mihailovic, and Susic were playing, and you can include Boban, Suker, Prosinecki, Boksic during the pre-Balkanization. Cubillas had the responsibility to carry Peru, leading them to winning the Copa America and achieving their best results ever at the WC. Rivelino, by contrast, did not win anything with Brazil except WC70 along a star studded side. Rivelino's performance in WC70 is excellent, but he followed up with two disappointments at WCs 74 and 78.
Like we had discussed this before: 1- Who won the best player at that WC? Zizinho - Schaffino only scored tons of goals in a weak group with a free ride there. 2- Ranking player is based on over career and also big games ... which Zizinho was surely better ======================================= Rivelinno was a huge part in WC70 - note that he was sacrificed to play on the wing to accomodate Pele + Tostao + Gerson in MF. At WC74, the team lost to Cruijff team, no shame. Being at #3 place behind Holland 74 and Germany 74 (often considered among very top teams in history) is also NO SHAME NO LOSER Compared Rivelino to Cubillas was like one "blindly" compared a Forlan to a Kaka at last WC2010??? Cubillas was a great FW no doubt but he was no way on par in talent quality to Rivelino. Same went to Forlan vs Kaka OK?
Yeah ranking player is a COMPLEX task which required a lot of research, knowledge of football thruout the eras, stats in fair analysis and last but not least - being neutral ... I am a huge fan of Zico, but my 2 cents on Zico: 1- Pure talent only: he is definitely a TOP10 materials 2- However, Ranking involved many other things especially success in BIG events. Here I AGREE that Zico would be OUT OF TOP10 ... Maybe somewhere Top15-25 For last bold, I am quite sure you did not watch Zico at his best??? refer to #1 above, as said, Zico's talent is PERFECTLY FIT in TOP10 materials (in PURE talent: Romario and Ronaldinho were not TOP10 material, Ronaldo at best was kinda "border line" ) So pure talent: Zico >= Ronaldo >= Romario >= Ronaldinho
[Maybe we should start a Charlton v. Didi thread over in the Players & Legends forum? I'd do it myself but I'm still a tad under my jet lag issues and the heat here isn't helping...]
Please do. I am quite sure you can contribute a lot to Bobby Charlton's career info (thanks to English "pro in stats" available out there. I am just afraid we lack of a lot of Didi's info ... in term of his Footage, career stats and let along games in details.
Since I would like it if the thread had a solid "OP"; perhaps Dearman, "PDG" or "Puck" could take this ball and run w/it? I'm still dreadfully under the weather, "Jim"...
Schiaffino beat Zizinho in the biggest game of all. Schiaffino also had an outstanding club career, achieving legend status for clubs in South America and Europe. This is enough for me to place him ahead of Zizinho, who did not win much at club level and was the leading player for Brazil in its worst loss ever. Regarding Rivelino, he was more a playmaker than Cubillas, who often was striker or support forward, so it's natural Rivelino possessed more all-around skill, but Cubillas was more significant at the WC level, and took Peru to a Copa America championship. Rivelino only won in WC70 despite playing alongside a great generation of players. PS: Brazil was fourth at WC74, Poland also beat them
On the overall ranking, you put Ronaldo in 12 place and I think it is really fair. However, I still wondering to know why so many people take Copa América 97 as World Class tournament. Argentina was playing with Squad B (Gallardo was their main player there), and also Chile and Uruguay. From what I remember, only Paraguay and México were playing with Squad A. Brazil, who was already qualified for WC98, played with full squad A in Copa América and Confederation Cup to give consistency for the team. Many years later, people starts to believe that Copa América and Confederation back then had the same status as nowadays.
Zizinho vs Schiaffino: 1- It's IGNORANT to say "beat in ONE biggest game" ! - Like Zidane beat a Ronaldo-less Brazil in 98 final, but was he among the best player there? NO - Like Iniesta beat Sneijder and his team in WC2010 final, but was he the best player there? NO - Like Muller beat Cruijff team in WC74 final, but was he the best player there? NO Zizinho was the best player at WC50 period 2- 2nd IGNORANT: wining club trophies are nice plus and essential, but NOT a MUST HAVE requirement as depends on what club/team the player playing for, OK? - It's SILLY to say A Seedorf who won 4 UCL in different teams as "better" than a Maradona, or Baggio, Ronaldo who had never won ONCE??? - It's SILLY to say a Pedro/Busquet who won many many Liga as "better" players than a Totti/Batistuta who played for LESSER teams??? Ridiculous! Rivelino vs Cubillas: