World Football Historic Center (Dearman Blogspot)

Discussion in 'Players & Legends' started by Dearman, Aug 7, 2013.

  1. Dearman

    Dearman Member

    Red Star Belgrade
    Argentina
    Feb 24, 2010
    Bangkok, Thailand
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Country:
    Thailand
    Dear, All

    I’m very pleased to announce my football history blogspots “WFHC”.

    WFHC was started to create when I just wanted to only transfer all of my works in history forum Xtratime.org to my own blogs. In the step of transferring and updates, I discover many new evidences of rating and useful documents for rating and a lot of ideas and new works were created to re-arrange my works properly. Anyway, I’d not call my works as a complete one and always open to new suggestions.


    WFHC is recorded in http://xtrahistory.blogspot.com.

    It was divided into three major series and the names were changed from the previous one in Xtratime.org.

    Positional Hall of Fame http://xtraimmortal.blogspot.com.
    International Legendary Museumhttp://xtralegend.blogspot.com
    The Memorial of Football Victoryhttp://xtravictory.blogspot.com


    WFHRC Objective

    1) To represent about research of football historical rating in highest probability by developing research methodology and comply historical data and information.
    2)
    To conserve the greatness of football history for recognition of the next generations.
    3)
    To support and convince amateur/professional historians and interest group to participate, cooperate and manage about football history activity.

    WFHRC Policy

    1) WFHRC is a continuous improving center and it widely open to new knowledge, ideas and information to be verified.
    2)
    WFHRC give importance to be a neutral workplace and pay attention in fairness of rating.
    3)
    WFHRC aim to reduce conflicts in football history discussion by encouraging the positive and creative attitudes.

    Previous Achievement

    - History forum in XT is successfully revived
    -
    Being the only reference in fm.co.uk in its modern legend database.
    -
    Being reference in Wikipedia and Pesdatabase.


    I’ll continue explain about scope and details of my additional works and interesting updates and I’ll establish some interesting topics after then since I decided to settle down to discuss in Bigsoccer.com.
     
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  2. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    Good luck mate. Should come here more often and share your stuffs
     
    RoyOfTheRovers repped this.
  3. Dearman

    Dearman Member

    Red Star Belgrade
    Argentina
    Feb 24, 2010
    Bangkok, Thailand
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Country:
    Thailand
    First of all, I names five Bigsoccer's experts in group of 10 consultants.

    Royoftherovers (Honorary Consultant) , Gregoriak, Comme, Msioux, Puckvanheel all are named in group of consultants as their works of rating evidence are very influential to my rating progression.
     
    RoyOfTheRovers and msioux75 repped this.
  4. Dearman

    Dearman Member

    Red Star Belgrade
    Argentina
    Feb 24, 2010
    Bangkok, Thailand
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Country:
    Thailand
    WFHC Introduction

    Comparision Technique (Addition) is added to solve the difficulty to compare players in far different eras.


    To compare players in the next eras is a lot easier as the circumstance is not far different and comparison in one generation to next generation in chain, would help to see overall picture of rating.

    Competition Level Greatest Ever Database (Addition)


    Database of performance rating in each competition level (Domestic Club, Int. Club and NT) is applied to rank top 50 players. Performance is divided into 4 classes (Phenomenon-C, Supreme WC, Ordinary WC, Supreme Int.class).Database in created base on evidence of rating, awards and statistical prediction.

    Continental All-Time XI and Greatest Ever (Revision)


    All continental all-time team and ranking works are combined in this part. New rule of player selection in this part : Any player born to any nation and have its national blood, will be selected in that nation regardless of nation they have played (Such as Eusebio is named as African)

    Historical Ranking of World Club (Revision)


    Top 20 World Clubs is revised. Glasgow Celtic and Santos replace PSV and Valencia, respectively. In 2nd half of 20th Century PSV and Valencia are slightly better than Celtics in overall points but Glasgow Celtic is far better in the 1st half of 20th century. Additionally, Formation Graphic has been added in top 20 World Club.

    The Honorable Football Personalities (Revision)


    Personality combines player and managing career with some additional bonus of presidential. In only player and managing combination, Cruyff should be ahead of Beckenbauer who is added in presidential bonus. Surely Jupp Heynckes has been named and Zebec is selected out. Heynckes as a player was a prolific scorer, is one of the top seven German forwards of all-time.

    World Eleven Players of All-Time (Revision)

    It shows World All-Time Dream Tam and World XI in each a half of decade. Messi has replaced Muller and Matthaus has replaced Rijkaard in substitution.


    World Annual Awards of the Century (Revision)

    European and South American yearly awards is expanded to three medals except in early years. The difficulty of rating is surely in the 1920s and the 1940s. I try to check the prime period of legends, awards and statistics to consider who should be the best in each year.


     
    Gregoriak and RoyOfTheRovers repped this.
  5. msioux75

    msioux75 Member+

    Jan 8, 2006
    Lima, Peru
    Thanks for such honor, but i think is the other way round.
    I really enjoy your work and admire the effort you put into it, mate ;) :cool:
     
    RoyOfTheRovers repped this.
  6. Dearman

    Dearman Member

    Red Star Belgrade
    Argentina
    Feb 24, 2010
    Bangkok, Thailand
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Country:
    Thailand
    Top 50 World’s All-Time Greatest Footballer (Revision)

    I change many rankings after spending time to consider in deeper details. I’d share only the important changes.

    1)Leonidas I selected off : Leonidas was very famous as the best player in the 1938 World Cup but I’m not sure if he deserved that status as he didn’t play in semi-finalist. In the late 1930s to early 1940s, Campeonato Carioca and Paulista league’s average goal per game was much higher than nowdays (That means degree of difficulty to make scores is more easier (But not means any team can win the game easier)) but Leonidas wasn’t outstanding in carrying the team to make scores. See this;

    Record in Campeonato Carioca

    In 1934 with Vasco Da Gama, Gradim and Nena were the two top scorer of Vasco (9 and 7 Goals in 12 games) and Leonidas scored less than 6 goals, not even in top nine scorer in the league.

    In 1935 with Botafogo, Carvalho Leite and Russinho were the two top scorer of Botafogo (16 and 14 goals in 21 games), Leonidas was not even in top seven scorer in the league.

    In 1936 with Flamengo, Leonidas was a second top scorer of the league (17 goals/15 Games).

    In 1937 with Flamengo, Leonidas was not even in top eight scorer of the league, Jarbas was Flamengo’s top scorer with 21 goals in 22 games.

    In 1938 with Flamengo, Leonidas was a top scorer of the league (16 goals/16 games) share with Calvalho Leite.

    In 1939 with Flamengo, Leonidas was not even in top nine scorer of the league. Valido and Gonzalez was Flamengo’s top scorer with 13 goals in 24 games.

    In 1940 with Flamengo, Leonidas was a top scorer of the league (30 goals/24 games), probably being his best season in club career.
    .
    In 1941 with Flamengo, Leonidas was not even in top seven scorer of the league. Pirillo is The league and Flamengo’s top scorer with 39 goals in only 28 games.

    In 1942 with Flamengo, Leonidas was not even in top six scorer of the league. Pirillo is Flamengo’s top scorer with 23 goals in 27 games.


    Don’t get me wrong. I’d not say scoring stats could tell us everything but it is helpful in this case to know remarkable level of Leonidas in his main duty of scoring. Not essential to say he is one of the most outstanding strikers of all-time, it is even difficult to say that he was the greatest scorer in Brazilian state league of his era as there are only impressive 3 seasons (club’s top scorer) in his club career.


    Cubillas replaced Leonidas. Cubillas was very successful in all competition levels he played, reached world-class in three major international tournaments (WC 70,78 and Copa America 75).

    2)Romario is ranked down to 47th. This change is probably surprised by many but I really have enough reasons by several thoughts.

    - Romario was only selected as a main reserved player in the 1990 World Cup at his 24 years old (played only 65 minutes VS Scotland)
    -
    - Romario was disappeared to play for Brazil in a large number of games after the 1990 World Cup to 1993 (1991 did not play, 1992 played one game, 1993 played one game) and did not played in 1995 and 1996. Those periods should be Romario’s peak career.
    -In the 1997 Copa America, it is very difficult to rank him in world-class since he scored 3 goals in total 12 goals in twice matches against Costa Rica and Peru. The rest three games is no goal.
    -
    - He was injury and not participated in the 1998 World Cup.
    -
    - Romario scored around half of total NT goals (55) against Grade D- C Team (26 goals against Israel, Australia, Finland, Venezuela, Canada, Honduras, El Salvador, Saudi Arabia, Guatemala, Costa Rica). Ronaldo scored only 20 goals from total 62 NY Goals against Grade D –C Team (Costa Rica, Iceland, Australia, Venezuela, Malaysia, China, New Zealand)
    -
    - Romario is considered the best player in Dutch league in only one year (1989)
    -
    - Romario’s a large number of disappearance in top league is available during the period should be his peak career. He played only 13 Dutch league games in 91 – 92 seasons and played only 47 top league games in 3 seasons between 1994 and 1997 and scored only 20 goals although he was really great in Brazilian state league in which is incomparable to Top league in Europe.
    -
    - In the 1993 – 1994 season, it is known as his best domestic season but it is questionable as he failed in European Cup, scored only twice goals in 10 games.

    In conclusion, Romario was among best players in the World in only one tournament (WC 1994 in which I rate Baggio as the best since he carried the team more) and only one domestic season (1993 – 1994). The rest of his career has rarely to find world-class (Probably in 2000 he won South American player of the year but most of top SA players had moved to Europe already.


    3)After I rank Two Brazilians down, it’s time to rank a Brazilian higher. Didi is moved to 16th as I positive he is superior to Bobby Charlton. Didi in what I’ve seen is far better in passing precision and technical ability and period of peak years in domestic seasons (56 – 58) should be in the closed level to Charlton (65 – 67). Internationally, Didi is also advantage (World-Class in twice World Cup and 1957 Copa America while Charlton was world-class in the 1966 tournament and the 1968 UEFA Euro).

    4)Ronaldo is another Brazilian to be ranked higher. In my Domestic rating, Ronaldo is slightly better than Eusebio. Eusebio is far better in European Cup while Ronaldo is also far better in NT career. Eusebio was superb in only 1966 World Cup and failed to participate the rest of major international tournaments. Ronaldo was world-class in twice World Cup tournaments and one Copa America. However, the criteria show Int.club in lower proportion than domestic and NT career. Ronaldo is the greatest striker of all-time by then.
     
  7. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Where did you find the topscorer charts for the Carioca?

    What evidence do you have for Charlton his level at euro68?

    I think you're also harsh on Eusebio but that is a minor thing.
     
  8. Dearman

    Dearman Member

    Red Star Belgrade
    Argentina
    Feb 24, 2010
    Bangkok, Thailand
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Country:
    Thailand
    http://www.rsssfbrasil.com/tablesrz/rjcamp.htm

    Rio de Jenairo state champions list is another name of Campeonato Carioca. You can find list of top scorer ranking in each year during Leonidas' era.

    Anyway, I mistook that Leonidas actually did not play in 1941 which he spent time in Prison for 8 months.

    Honesty, I have no evidence rating of Charlton in Euro 68 but I see the 1968 is one of Charlton's year of peak career (second place in Ballon'Dor is one of rough rating as it also includes his great performance in European Cup) and he scored many important goals to lead England qualifying for the final tournament (Semi-Finalist). Note that I also consider quarter-final match against Spain and some matches in the first round as the Euro tournament to properly compare with Players who played in new format of UEFA Euro.

    I see Eusebio is disadvantage in team circumstance as he played for Portugal which defending system was probably in average in European level. In the 1968 Euro qualifying round, he scored only one game in total five games. In the 1970 World Cup qualifying round, Portugal is finished the last place of the group too far from qualifying (Greece and Switzerland without European superstars is 2nd place and 3rd place respectively). Portugal team condition did not support him enough to reach his top performance and so then he couldn't carry his team enough by his own performance.
     
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  9. RoyOfTheRovers

    Jul 24, 2009
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Country:
    England
    This is a blog entry about the English candidates for the Ballon d'Or that have finished in the top third IIRC:



    http://www.playup.com/blog/uk/2012/10/31/the-ellusive-ballon-dor-for-englishmen-anyway/



    Unfortunately, the writer tends to look at candidates in the earlier years as if it were the 2013 edition of the award: leaving out England's records in the "not-so-friendlies" and international tour matches of the day, entirely discounting Sir Bobby Charlton's key role for his country at the '68 Euros...
     
    Gregoriak repped this.
  10. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    During and after 1968 Eusebio was more of a midfielder.

    IMO a display like at 1966WC is the maximum one can ask from a player from such a tiny nation.

    Also: why is Ronaldo his domestic career rated higher?

    It sounds too much as "because I ranked two Brazilians down I have to rank two higher as compensation".
     
    RoyOfTheRovers repped this.
  11. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    This is an incomplete comparison I feel:

    Skill: I would disagree that he was lesser long range passer. Certainly, a thing that Charlton had ahead of Didi was pace, a body-swerve/feint, scoring prowess, strength and finding an extra gear while making one-twos and combinations. He has also ahead of Didi that he could excel on multiple positions, which is in itself a proof of the (wide array of) skills he had. Charlton had multiple ways of playing the game, even at his best position.

    Domestic seasons: amount of peak seasons is maybe similar but Charlton has the greater longevity on a superb level. I'm personally quite sure about that.

    Why is the international club career ignored?

    Performance in tournaments: Didi was less good in 1962 as in 1958. It might be argued that 1962 was despite a win not 'world class' (he also had an injury). That is not a no-brainer for sure.
    Charlton was also good at the 1962 World Cup. There is a lot of proof available for that, how for example Italian magazines praised him and included him at team of the tournaments.
     
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  12. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    What decides whether one is a D-C team? I see that Bolivia isn't seen as such a team.
     
  13. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    In overall I think you did a great job with thorough consideration.
    However, it will take me some time to revise what you just did (here) to see your justification!
    A big REP though
     
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  14. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    I will not rep it because I see way too many biases and general preferences that aren't mine. At the very top end: Zico is rated as having a greater club career as Cruijff, what a joke. Tells everything. And all those 'phenomenon class' quasi-mathmetical things are also inconsistent and not representative.
    Eventually such things are very subjective though, and not defined by objectivity, implicitly acknowledged by Dearman
    http://www.xtratime.org/forum/showpost.php?p=9238202&postcount=113

    I remember this exaggerated and amusing description.

    A big plus is that Dearman gives great insight in how he arrives to his rankings. He shows his 'system' and thought process, in sometimes a detailed manner (even though the system and coding can be debatable ofc). That is a compliment I want to hand out and greatly admire - and is generally greatly lacking.
     
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  15. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    This really takes the cake, why would someones whose goal clearly is to make the best list possible, evident by changing positions all the time based on arguments presented be biased to towards anything? Biased towards what anyways? Lack of knowledge =/= biased. Do you even know what biased means? If you know Dearman's background he has no connection to anything whatsoever.
     
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  16. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Yes I know that you sometimes had questions about that 'knowledge'
    http://www.bigsoccer.com/community/threads/all-time-greatest-players-in-ten-category.1918216/

    I can also turn around your question: why would someone sometimes say "you don't belong here" if exactly some info is presented, as if it is blasphemy?
    http://www.xtratime.org/forum/showthread.php?p=9238202#post9238202
    Is that a sign of non-alignment and willingness to contemplate?

    I'd say that the lists are geared towards Latin players. Which is fine because so far I have not seen any list without biases and subjectivity.
     
    RoyOfTheRovers repped this.
  17. msioux75

    msioux75 Member+

    Jan 8, 2006
    Lima, Peru
    Excluding innecesary adjectives.

    I agree with Puck's comments about Didi vs Charlton in post #11 (i think, Charlton has a slight advantadge over Didi). Didi was past his prime in WC'62. In fact, i think that Sir Bobby is underated in PDG's list (I know is a compilation list) But, he's a strong top-10 material, imho.

    btw, i'm also sure that Dearman hasn't any bias (nation/politic lover). Whether some items could be modified, he's open to additional info and good argumentations as Puck did a post above.
     
    RoyOfTheRovers repped this.
  18. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    I agree that every list is a subject to debate...
    However the term " biased " could be applied to either way :)
    For me, may be it's a bit exaggerate to say "Zico's club is as great as Cruijff", but it's close to debate/ by no means JOKE at all.

    Now you "may be also BIASED" toward European football, to rate Cruijff's Ajax much higher than Zico at Flamengo ? Don;t you ever think that way? Besides the fact Cruijff won 3 Euro cups for Ajax, I do not see "much" difference with Zico leading Flamengo to win Libertadore and Interconinental cup (well at least ONCE). on top of Zico won 7 State Champions, and 4 Brazil leagues which were NOT a "JOKE" at all. Now unless again you might be also BIASED to rate Brazil leage in 70's like MLS?

    Cruijff won 3 ballon Dor but Zico won 4 SA player of the year
    Also note that Zico won no less than 8,9 TOPSCORERS here and there which was NO JOKE at all for a playmaker AM (even I do not think Cruijff/Maradona could make that, if they played in Brazil)

    Now if we have to put in NUMBER (to illustrate better)
    Cruijff club career 9.5/10 > Zico club career 9/10 (not like 9.5 vs 7 )
    ==================================================

    It's same thing to some younger fans might say Messi won many Liga + many UCL to be "equivalent" or "greater" than Pele 10' state champs and 4 Brazil champs??? NOOOOO
    It did not work that way! since we have to go back and see if winning 3,4 States or 2,3 Brazil were achievable to any team or any player??? NOOOOOO
     
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  19. Dearman

    Dearman Member

    Red Star Belgrade
    Argentina
    Feb 24, 2010
    Bangkok, Thailand
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Country:
    Thailand
    I think it was your misunderstanding by sure. I'm not compensate anything but I just said that the ranking is higher and lower for Brazilian,

    Well the view to determine players' skill is varied base on different people and it is always difficult to accurate of those players are not much different in classes.

    Botafogo did participate in Paris Tournament but the competition was not a official World Club cup and it was held in Didi' late career. It is incomparable.
     
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  20. Dearman

    Dearman Member

    Red Star Belgrade
    Argentina
    Feb 24, 2010
    Bangkok, Thailand
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Country:
    Thailand

    Bolivia is always difficult to be beaten in their home and in the 1990s Bolivia was a stronger team than central american teams.
     
  21. Dearman

    Dearman Member

    Red Star Belgrade
    Argentina
    Feb 24, 2010
    Bangkok, Thailand
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Country:
    Thailand

    Please not refer to my XT historical posting as it is already the past. Your knowledge in previous five years must different to nowadays as well. We should discuss in current view not the outdated one. Football rating is always subjective and you can be best at objective as much as possible.

    How can you say Zico is rated higher than Cruyff in domestic competition (Not include int.club) is a joke by no your personal preference ? Zico is one of the phenomenal players in the World. I respect your knowledge on football history but I also notice some of yours unreliable view such as Cocu is better than Edgar Davids. They are very different style of play and Davids is more like Charlton while Cocu is more like Didi in style of play.

    and My works is just a continuous improving proposal. It surely cannot be filled with the best knowledge in all points (I have no time enough to make it) but the main objective to establish proposal is to share to go on exchange opinions and up date if suggestion is really considered to accept.
     
    RoyOfTheRovers repped this.
  22. Dearman

    Dearman Member

    Red Star Belgrade
    Argentina
    Feb 24, 2010
    Bangkok, Thailand
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Country:
    Thailand

    The difficulty in positional category is there is a limit number of position to set in ranking while there are actually many players style of plays and hard to put them into one position correctly. Some players also played in several position. Argument always help you to research more not mean you would believe them all the time and no one can set a huge work in research alone.

    My background ? I don't see there is connection between background and research works. Pele has superb background on football but his top 130 best lived footballer is well-known as one of the most controversial proposals.

    I respect experts in great background like Royoftherovers and Puckvanheel as they always contribute a useful knowledge to us but ranking is another thing since our brain is not an instrument to measure skill of players properly and I'm sure skill of one players must be largely varied by many great background experts. Knowledge is very basic thing to be brought in ranking but another difficulty is the method to apply them ( no one can answer about correctness of method)

    In my definition of biased, it means your feeling is applied to the rating by no arrangement and management of data and knowledge. Not means you are biased because you're lack of knowledge otherwise everyone must be biased since no one cannot know everything in one player as long as they have not watched every games and studied all involved circumstance influential to player.
     
    RoyOfTheRovers repped this.
  23. Dearman

    Dearman Member

    Red Star Belgrade
    Argentina
    Feb 24, 2010
    Bangkok, Thailand
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Country:
    Thailand
    Dearman is a good bloke and he knows that I love him like a son. But the gap between what Dearman THINKS that he knows about football and what he actually KNOWS about the game just might fit between Paris and Moscow. :D

    Have a four-plus page conversation w/him (including several PMs) about how according to a group of twenty-year olds I supposedly know f*ck all about Tommy Lawton or Billy Liddell and you'll see what I mean... ;)]


    The Rome is not completely built in one day. It has to spend long time to get knowledge in football history as I worked for all functions. Surely you are misunderstood on me, all opinions I gave was to show an active knowledge not means the complete knowledge ever.
     
    RoyOfTheRovers repped this.
  24. Dearman

    Dearman Member

    Red Star Belgrade
    Argentina
    Feb 24, 2010
    Bangkok, Thailand
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Country:
    Thailand

    Probably it is the language wall. "You don't belong here" in what I mean is lacking of readiness to discuss and exchange knowledge between people (Probably I was not good in English enough).

    Surely knowledge in historical football has to be developed. I have just studied football history for a few years with time constraint. Importantly, many topics in the past show my humble knowledge but it was very useful to develop again and over again. It is very common story for everyone as well as you to start from that point.

    Puck, At the day in the end of the world, it will be still your personal preference (is subjective inevitably) to decide biased and subjectivity of people who just have different point of view from you. It is also impossible for you to show to have no personal preference in you rating (Especially Zico VS Cruyff in domestic competition in example). We should spend time to exchange useful knowledge and reduce this kind of discussion to take advantage of own personal preference since there will be no absolute answer for such a football rating. Hopefully you will understand.
     
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  25. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    That is not unreliable... I think it reflects differences in longevity, consistency for national team and skill. Both have advantages over each other.

    But the farther one moves away from the very top level the less insecure it is.

    I focus on some of your rankings at the very top.

    Yes, I dare to say that is a joke an telling a LOT that you rate Zico so high.

    And how was Di Stefano during the 1962WCQ 'phenomenon class'?

    How was Maradona still 'supreme international class' in 1990-91? He was a train-wreck after WC90, in all blunt fairness.

    How do you define that Eusebio was 'supreme world class' in one half of 1972/1973 and 'ordinary world class' in the other half of 1972/1973?

    You quite clearly punish Eusebio for playing in the Portuguese league. But doesn't tell the record in Europe and for NT a lot in this respect? In his whole career Eusebio scored over 700 goals.
    You are also harsh for his NT career. For euro64 qualifiers, he did not play in the deciding replay match against Bulgaria, which Portugal lost.
    And during the 1967-1968 years he developed serious knee injuries, partially as a result of the continuous hacking on his body. He still scored goals on a frequent basis but was generally more of a midfielder (and a good one, see the Ballon d'Or).
    http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/eusebio-intlg.html

    silence....
     
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