World Cup 2018

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by comme, Jun 9, 2018.

  1. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yes, I'd noticed Robertson and Cruyff both appeared on each others pages too!

    Maradona (1986) has Cruyff on his page, but the correlation isn't enough for vice versa.

    Krol (1978) and Moore (1966) as top match seems to make sense.

    Cafu has a top match with himself (1998 and 2002).
     
  2. Estel

    Estel Member+

    May 5, 2010
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Interesting to note that Giresse (1982) and not Platini, is the ideal match for Zidane 2006.

    Definitely a fascinating tool. Would be interesting to see how strikers like Romario and Muller compare to forwards, and how some of the forwards compare to midfield playmakers.
     
  3. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I'm wondering if making sub appearances and being taken off early might affect things, but not sure. Whether the data is literally per game rather than per 90 minutes in other words.

    For example, that might tilt the balance (reducing passes per game, and progressive passes per game for example) for the likes of Zico (1978), Bergkamp (1998) and R.Baggio (1994). Although those might all have been cases of less involvement in the build-up than would be typical for them I guess for various reasons, even with some quality passes in the repertoire still. So really high numbers wouldn't have been expected for passing anyway I guess.

    But yeah, it's definitely interesting, and I guess it will continue to be updated for 2018 players.
     
  4. Estel

    Estel Member+

    May 5, 2010
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    I am assuming that the creators of this tool might not have considered how subs and extra time can affect these "per match" statistics and as such gone ahead with this measure, instead of the more logical "per 90 minutes" measure.

    Should be only a small tweak to the tool, to make it so that the statistics are calculated for the per 90 minutes measure, though that would entail a change for some of those comparisons. However, most of the matches should stay the same.
     
  5. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord

    Yes I can sort of understand their choices if the question is to find similarities in style and role (not only looking at goals but also expected goals so Ramos et al. get detected; leaving out through balls and chance creation things; the Z-score) but don't really get why it is on a per match basis.
     
  6. msioux75

    msioux75 Member+

    Jan 8, 2006
    Lima, Peru
    Personally, Ochoa > Ospina.

    Also liked, Mina, Godin, Kante, Modric, Coutinho, Mbappe, Kane, Cavani.
     
  7. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I seem to remember I picked Ochoa in my XI of the last World Cup! He did seem to be in quite good form again this time though yeah.

    I guess he wasn't an absolute consensus majority choice last time, but it'd be notable to be a good candidate for best GK in two consecutive World Cups.
     
  8. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I've calculated Sky's average ratings so far for those players now, plus 8 more; C.Ronaldo and Messi, Ochoa who was mentioned by msioux and Cheryshev who has made a big impact, the Spaniards Isco and Iniesta, plus also a couple of players I was thinking have scope to play themselves into greater contention in games to come potentially in Griezmann and Rakitic (if say Griezmann did as Xavi in 2010 with increasing impact in the latter stages, or Rakitic had some significant knock-out stage contributions like Sneijder that year)….

    Trippier 9 8.5 8 8.5
    Kane 8 9 8 8.333333
    Modric 8 9 7 7 7.75
    Isco 8 8 7 8 7.75
    Mina 7 8 8 7.666667
    Hazard 7 9 7 7.666667
    Rakitic 7 9 7 7.666667
    Godin 8 7 7 8 7.5
    Coutinho 7 8 8 7 7.5
    Lozano 8 8 7 7 7.5
    C.Ronaldo 9 8 6 7 7.5
    Mbappe 6 7 9 7.333333
    Golovin 8 7 7 7.333333
    Cavani 7 7 6 9 7.25
    Cheryshev 8 8 7 6 7.25
    Yoshida 7 7 6 8 7
    Kolarov 8 6 7 7
    Pogba 6 7 8 7
    Musa 6 8 7 7
    Inui 7 8 5 8 7
    Ochoa 7 6 7 8 7
    Sommer 7 6 7 7 6.75
    Fernandes 7 7 6 7 6.75
    Iniesta 7 7 7 6 6.75
    Sanchez 5 7 7 7 6.5
    Rodriguez 6 6 7 7 6.5
    Kante 7 7 5 7 6.5
    Messi 7 5 8 6 6.5
    Ospina 6 7 6 6 6.25
    Griezmann 6 6 5 7 6

    So that shows each grade received from Sky, and the average at the end, for each player. For whatever reason it seems Ryan Mason awarded England's grades for the Panama game, and considered increments of 0.5 too such as the grade he handed to Trippier - so that is not a typo; maybe he was extra generous compared to what they'd have been awarded otherwise but hard to say for sure. Nobody has been given 10 out of 10 (or indeed 9.5) so far - James Rodriguez vs Poland was another to get a 9 out of 10 grade.
     
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  9. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord

    This is also an interesting article of the same website

    https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-world-cup-players-who-step-up-most-for-their-countries/

    There was also an article in NRC Handelsblad on whether Hazard might become one of the most famous countrymen worldwide if he manages to beat Brazil... This are his 'rivals'
    https://cheeseweb.eu/2011/04/impress-friends-20-famous-belgians/
    https://www.learndutch.org/beginners/who-speaks-dutch/

    Some have a catalog of creations that are famous, without themselves being recognizable. Instrumental musicians for movies, for example.

    Just as in Spain there is also a minority that hopes they don't do that well.
     
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  10. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Naingollan would have been useful in this match.
    Or playing out the counter attacks better.
     
  11. leadleader

    leadleader Member+

    Aug 19, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    #86 leadleader, Jul 6, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2018
    De Bruyne will probably get the MOTM vs. Brazil, but I think that Hazard was exactly as good if not better, his ability to draw fouls and kill the flow or continuity of what would've been another Brazil all out attack, was crucial in my opinion, and he did it consistently from beginning to end. What's more, is that Hazard could've easily been even better had he not misplaced some easy passes after he had done the difficult part of dribbling and creating the passing angles.

    Moreover, I'd say that Hazard is the player of the tournament so far, he has a real chance to stamp his name among the world cup legends; 2 games to go, if he can continue in the same form or get even better, I can see him becoming a figure similar to Gheorghe Hagi 1994, if Hagi had won the world cup.

    Of course I'm saddened by the fact that South America has no teams in the Semi Finals, but at the same time, this Belgium team is playing some of the best football I've seen in years at the World Cup.

    For the record: South America was really undone by untimely injuries, Cavani's for Uruguay and James's for Colombia... At any rate, there's no doubt in my mind that Colombia with James gets past England, and that Uruguay with Cavani had a very real chance of getting past France... Of course, such is the nature of cup tournaments: injuries at the wrong time of the season can totally kill your chances at the 2-3 games that really matter (or that matter the most).
     
  12. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    That was a great result and argument can be made for greatest win ever.

    The first half was good, from Brazil too. Second half could have been better. Lost a bit of structure and no pressure on opposition midfield; counter attacks should have been played out better. Think France can be beaten too, actually.

    Courtois was exceptional (9 saves is old-timers territory) and Hazard as well I thought, one of the few to maintain his level in the 2nd half (only missed a goal or assist; and there was a counter attack where he was wasteful with a poor pass). De Bruyne was used better and is typically dangerous when on transition, still not on full 100% imho (on the other hand, even at his best he can turn hit-and-miss throughout a match).



    Very neat game by him.

    Hope they don't get too euphoric and can see the possibilities against France. How it all can change; 10 years ago some relatives thought they'd never qualify for a World Cup again (before the planned expansion ofc).

    The theme 'we/they might win the World Cup earlier than Netherlands - jeeh/horror' starts to live and become highlighted too, but it's generally a friendly rivalry, and with banter stereotypes that don't turn to the diabolical side. Most extreme, four years ago the Belgian commentator became emotional when NLD lost against Argentina (as confirmed by himself).
     
  13. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Sky gave Hazard a 9, with De Bruyne, Lukaku getting 8 each:
    http://www.skysports.com/football/brazil-vs-belgium/385226
    And in the other match Griezmann was deemed MOTM, with Kante and Lloris getting 8, the same grade as him (Courtois got an 8 as GK too vs Brazil):
    http://www.skysports.com/football/brazil-vs-belgium/385226

    As expected, potential changes come to mind re: the best XI selections. I think compared to 1994 for example, I don't have quite such a good feel anyway, but few places seem assured, or nearly assured in such a selection at this stage to me still. I think probably I now would have Lukaku above Cavani who was unfortunate not to be able to play himself of course (and might it be feasible to consider him as back-up choice on the right of the 4-2-3-1 I'm wondering given teams play with various different formations), and within range of challenging for Kane's place at least. De Bruyne edging a bit further into contention too, and Alderweireld perhaps with a reasonable chance to end up in at least my idea of a second XI, depending what happens next. Lloris and Courtois still could enhance their claims further. Griezmann seems well placed to get into my second XI at least indeed all of a sudden, although Golovin is still to play this round himself. Might even be a bit similar re: Pavard/Fernandes at right back. And from Brazil, I'm wondering now whether Marcelo did enough in that game to go straight in at left back (the position I was the most uncertain about before anyway) in a first XI, but Neymar (although in the end has to be somewhere close I suppose, despite that observers might have very mixed feelings about his performances and some antics) might not make it quite I think.

    Overall the Belgium-Brazil game was a pretty good one I think. Maybe even 4th best watch/game of the tournament, behind Belgium-Japan, Spain-Portugal, France-Argentina for me....
     
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  14. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord


    Haha. Epic.
     
  15. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Damn. Now England has three semi finals. Too bad.
     
  16. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
  17. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    IMG_1412.JPG IMG_1413.JPG IMG_1414.JPG
    Maradona's infamous hand of god goal in 86 and cocaine celebration vs Greece in 94 has been usurped by his now infamous mummy celebration, neymar has surpassed rivaldos record for the greatest dive in World Cup history...and England are in the wc semis.this is proving to be the most entertaining wc in living memory
    Good day
     
  18. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    This is in many ways a strange tournament, the strangest since 2002 I think.

    Got to say Modric had (now for real) a really good game yesterday, and was on the top of his powers, despite the Croatia as a whole not doing great and Modric his positioning and movement not always being helpful.

    I can't see Croatia win against posh boy Southgate though, and drowning him in his hype. Two penalty shoot-outs, and they also spend some big energy in the group stage. They were falling apart in extra time. But it would be great if they can end that 'world cup is coming home' narrative, and that many sources had Pickford at motm shows possibilities.

    Especially impressive is how Croatia doesn't lean that much on immigration. If you look at other countries (small countries, but also some bigger ones) then they reap rewards from that sometimes over 15% is foreign born, and not too rarely they grow up in (relative) poverty.
    Some other countries with stricter immigration laws (e.g. Denmark, Scandinavia, but also Netherlands since the 2000 law change) use that source to a lessened degree.

    I'm afraid it will be a France vs England final. Not impressed by this French team, especially the full-backs, Umtiti and the lack of finesse, inventiveness and creativity. I give them an even better chance in 2022.
     
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  19. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Hmm yes. At 2nd thoughts it was especially the first half that was of a high level by both teams, but it was qualitatively (by far) the best quarter final of all the matches.
     
  20. annoyedbyneedoflogin

    Juventus Football Clube Ajax Mineiro de Deportes
    Jun 11, 2012
    I have to say that I actually like the French fullbacks. Hernández/Umtiti and Griezmann's taller brother are very solid. The same goes for the Uruguayan backs. Although Cáceres "fell through the basket" when he had to cross the ball. This was different with Cavani playing upfront.

    Agreed that there can be only one Amoros or prime Sagnol but IMHO if you keep it tight at the back you can get away with 5 creative players upfront.
     
  21. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord

    https://www.theblizzard.co.uk/article/empire-and-entitlement



    I enjoy reading all those comedy pieces.
     
  22. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
  23. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord


    No is the answer...


    This is also an interesting thread (not necessarily agreeing with all observations by the author)

     
  24. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Okay I am a bit undecided about the defenders and goalkeepers (except for Trippier, who seems to be a lock for right back).

    I'd lock down Kante. Other than maybe Mbappe he has been the most consistent French player and he also symbolizes what this team is about imho. He is symbolic for that team.

    Coutinho for Brazil sure and Modric too (still the most logical Croatian player to get a nod but Rakitic also good and does the 'dirty' work). Neymar dissapointed a bit against Belgium.

    After yesterday any doubts about Hazard vs De Bruyne sort of vanished. Hazard was very good and if he scores that goal you get a very different match. De Bruyne was okay but not as good as him (KDB receives some harsh criticism now from FF, Bildzeitung for example). Played maybe also on a 'harder' position with facing Kante more often.

    Mbappe rebounded strongly after a so-so display against Uruguay (Umtiti rebounded even more strongly!), with still a final to come that will suit him well.

    Right now I'd say Lukaku > Kane but Kane can still do something in the semi final or the remaining match of course (Lukaku not good in his semi final). Group stage was about equally good but Lukaku better in round of 16 and quarters.


    Modric - Kante - Coutinho
    Hazard - Mbappe
    Lukaku (Kane?)
     
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  25. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I had wondered about coming back to update at this stage and after the Final too, and was just about deciding maybe notbut since you make this post I'll also go ahead now!

    I pretty much agree with all you write in terms of improved/lesser displays by certain players. Interestingly, Kicker and Sky (the two sources I've been checking) do differ on some calls I've noticed, significantly. Kicker haven't added ratings for yesterday yet, but Sky seem if anything generous/forgiving of KDB actually (giving him 6, indeed below Hazard, but ahead of various team-mates with 5s), and the opposite for Mbappe who gets 7, with some team-mates on 8. Obviously that is still 1 point in Mbappe's favour in a direct comparison though, with him and KDB.

    For GK, maybe I even somehow don't yet take Ospina out just yet (not to claim that should be a definitive call, or even a certain one for myself) but maybe put Lloris as reserve now with potential to do well in the Final and then be my overall choice. He's not the only GK still with chances to impress of course either, although despite a 3rd Place game being one in which a GK can easily excel, it might not be one in which it's easy for one to upgrade overall opinions/placings on the back of I guess, if it is deemed semi-competitive in some ways.

    Trippier is probably more cemented as my idea at right back, with Fernandes maybe still backup.

    At left back, possibly Rodriguez then Marcelo.

    CBs - hard to compare the merits of those who went out earlier than the final 4 teams maybe, but I guess I stick with Yoshida and Davinson Sanchez based on my overall impressions. Maybe Varane and Godin now as backups.

    Kante followed by Modric for CM/DM I think (Modric having to do something special to replace or get alongside Kante). Coutinho still as CM/AM, but Pogba closer than before I'd say now.

    Mbappe, due at first to lack of alternatives, but now moreso after yesterdays game adding to his Argentina one, cemented on the right. Cavani slotted there as backup maybe, and feasibly Perisic with a great last two games predominantly from the right might be the one who could potentially change that, but surely not challenge Mbappe now.

    Hazard as central AM, with Griezmann perhaps squeezing into the backup place now and if he did have a really great final maybe Hazard could be moved to the left, but not a really likely scenario I guess.

    Inui, then Cheryshev as backup on the left I'd go with I think now.

    Maybe Kane back in pole position as striker, but I'd had Lukaku right with him prior to last nights game at least. Not sure if Cavani would come back into the equation here if Perisic did excel over 180 minutes (+?), but not likely for the first XI unless Lukaku and Kane ended with two average/disappointing games each (which could be deemed 3 in a row if it was Kane - I thought he played well in general vs Colombia, but Lukaku's dummy vs Japan was both crucial and excellent to be fair in that round even after a generally not so great performance).
     
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