Will Holland ever win the WC?

Discussion in 'The Netherlands' started by Cviet, Jul 14, 2014.

  1. Brilliant Dutch

    Brilliant Dutch Member+

    Ajax
    Netherlands
    Oct 14, 2013
    Amsterdam, Holland
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Its because having a good world cup is not always indicative of someones talent. Remember Milan Baros?? He could never stick with Liverpool, but played like his hair was on fire at major tournaments. Also Thiago Silva is regarded as one of best defenders in the world, yet he had a shitty WC this year.

    DeVrij is a good defender with a lot of promise, but he's not the finished article yet. Give him a year or two in Serie A, and I think he'll be ready for the top 3 Euro leagues
     
  2. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    ^^Stekelenburg had a very good WC in 2010 and only attracted the attention of Roma. It's also important to remember that there are less than a dozen teams in Europe that are able to pay big €s for players, Lazio is not one of them (in fact probably only Juventus is in that class considering Italian teams).
     
  3. Brilliant Dutch

    Brilliant Dutch Member+

    Ajax
    Netherlands
    Oct 14, 2013
    Amsterdam, Holland
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Exactly.

    Also Greece won Euro 2004, maybe Barca shouldve signed that entire team and won the triple....LOL :ROFLMAO:
     
  4. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Of course, but generally it used to be a help.

    Compare this with Van Nistelrooy, who was talent-wise not the very best in fact, but around the turn of the century the whole European elite was after him.

    Are our players less wanted, and why?
     
  5. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    We had to change system as the defenders were not good enough. We closed shop at the back, circumvented playing balls though middle often by hoofing it up front. That was to minimize turnover risk. We minimized the space a defender had to take care of until they could manage and yes, then the defenders did a nice job. However we would make a mistake to then say they can also manage to defend bigger spaces or even a very high line in an attacking setup. The system we played had them play in their power. Not only concerning keeping things tight at the back, but it allowed de Vrij to do a lot of build up and Vlaar to be sweeper and intervene when danger was luring.

    I saw Lazio fans being unhappy with their defenders. Must be s simple as that. Fans even booked a flight to Rotterdam for their technical director without his knowing. Bombarded him with calls after putting his telephone number online. There was pressure to make this signing.
     
  6. onzie77

    onzie77 Member

    Ajax
    Netherlands
    May 18, 2012
    miami
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    yes they are less wanted but that has to do with a few factors. the game has changed tactics wise. Also alves from herenveen who was overpaid for and didn't do anything, meant there was a lot of risk in buying eredivisie players.

    even though we had ibrahimovic, suarez, bony, erikssen amongst others, your value is what someone is willing to and can afford to pay for you.

    Right now lots of teams are cash strapped because the economy and those with money want the finished product. No use in really trying with youth.

    Also because the way tactics changed, future players like van nistelrooy won't be used, everybody wants a striker who can participate in the build up, press, amongst other things. so guys like bas dost or huntelaar can't do it anymore. modern tactics won't allow it.

    Also the emphasis on playing it safe is hurting dutch talents, i hate seeing soo many back passes and passing amongst the defenders. we need to play our triangles and get the defensive midfielder to be able to turn so we can attack better in our incision phase of buildup, instead we pass it outside, defensive without that pass to unlock defenses or that guy to juke a player out and create a man advantage, for all of our panna street style we need to implement the street style into the center of the pitch, guys like davids, seedorf, in the past sneijder and vdv would take the ball and pass someone making the oppossing defense scramble .
     
  7. MrOranjeBal

    MrOranjeBal Member

    Apr 7, 2009
    Club:
    AZ
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    On the bold part: I've read this before. But the reason van Gaal changed his formation actually was because he'd have to do without Strootman, a midfielder. So one could argue that the remaining midfield was not good enough to provide both incisive forwards passing to the best part of the team (the attack) and cover for the defence adequately.
     
  8. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    'The economy' is maybe true for the Netherlands but rest of Europe has sort of recovered.

    Also to think about: (domestic) media rights sales go through the roof (for ex. EPL, Bundesliga, Serie A) and even in Italy they are now refurbishing stadiums or building profitable ones.
     
  9. MrOranjeBal

    MrOranjeBal Member

    Apr 7, 2009
    Club:
    AZ
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Who cares if top teams are unwilling to splash out on our talented youngsters, if that means they can mature a bit longer in the E.D. or at lower rated teams where they won't just ride the bench.

    It's not like all the young players going abroad in the last few years have shown stellar performances or progress. Castaignos, de Jong, van Wolfswinkel, Ake, Bruma...
     
  10. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    I could not agree more with this. All the back passing to defenders and them passing among themselves is just another way of saying: "we can not deal with tight spaces". If you do not aim to handle yourself in tight pockets of space then players will never be stimulated to become the best they can be. It's a cooking process up to a certain extend. In midfield things are hotter (much more pressure), but if you get players up to the point that they can dictate play from there, then you have nurtured a next level player. No Dutch team, incluiding Ajax, does not aim for this and so we are stuck at this level.

    That is true. The remaining midfield was not good enough. That resulted in 2 problems.

    * Sneijder could not be carried
    * Defense was too easily exposed.

    We needed a system that could keep things tight at the back (like playing 5 defenders in the defensive phase) and enough buffer so that Sneijder could still play and spray his splitting passes. There was also another problem:

    * No good left back

    We could play a left CB or a left wing back, but a pure left back was not up to par. This was something that van Gaal was worried about as well and added fuel to the motivation to change from system.


    That last argument would have been scrapped, in case defense was in check. Would it have flipped the case to stay at 4-3-3 with a good left back at our disposal? I don't know. It's really a wallet-pocket issue. If one line has a lot of buffer to take on defensive responsibility's, then the next line can be configured with less defensive responsibility's. How is it possible that a 23/24 year old player at a sub top club team can become so important for our NT? That has to do IMO with weakness in midfield and defense. He camouflaged problems and without him we had to deal with them again. Sneijder can take on little defensive responsibility and defense can soak up only that much pressure. Strootman was so important as there was so little buffer in other lines.
     
  11. Brilliant Dutch

    Brilliant Dutch Member+

    Ajax
    Netherlands
    Oct 14, 2013
    Amsterdam, Holland
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Another thing to keep in mind regarding the thread title is playing a WC final at home is a huge advantage. Do people really think if 1978 WC final had been held in Amsterdam instead of Buenos Aires we would have lost that game?? Especially if Cruijff had shown up?!

    Doubtful. I think we would've creamed them 2 or 3-0
     
  12. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Bundesliga does not get much TV money. In the US matches are carried on GolTV which has a very small viewer base compared to other cable channels that carry football. Name one Italian team other than Juventus that has built a new stadium or is in the process of building one. Milan cannot find any funding to get out San Siro. Roma wants to get out of the Olympic Stadium but cannot. A lot of the small clubs have really bad stadiums and are in no position to do anything. Only way this will happen in Italy is if they get a WC and government steps in. Good luck on that.

    Here are the teams that can buy players with no problems: Bayern, Barca, Madrid, PSG, Chelsea, ManCity, ManU Everyone else is hamstrung by lack of money or management that is too conservative (Arsenal and Liverpool; I put Liverpool in this category because the only reason they have bought lots of players is because of the Suarez money). Some of the other EPL teams can buy but they also have to sell as well. All other clubs in Europe are selective buyers and forced to sell (I just saw today that Reus is not renewing his contract at Dortmund; will the club pull a Goetze or Lewandowski with him?).
     
  13. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    The real problem here is that players don't stay around long enough to implement the kind of system you and I want to see. Barca don't have this problem as their midfielders have been the same for a number of years. Instinctively they know where everyone is on the pitch. Ajax have to rotate new players in every year or two. Had Eriksen stayed with the club last season you would have seen a very different type of offensive performance (though this does not help the Dutch NT of course). Three years ago you saw much better central defense play when both Vertonghen and Alderwiereld were starters with the club.
     
  14. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    And this also affects the chances of the NT. Current Germany and Spain previously clearly operate with a nucleus/axis from one and the same club.
     
  15. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Roma cannot? Did I miss something? I thought their plans will continue.

    Other clubs wanting to do so are Fiorentina, Napoli, Internazionale.

    Yes, but their revenues have increased nonetheless.
    http://www.epfl-europeanleagues.com/dfl_record_revenues.htm
    There's also a deal with the 'Murdoch gang'
    http://www.goal.com/en-india/news/3...332942/bundesliga-announce-record-new-tv-deal

    That also means a further inflation of the wages and transfer sums. Even the Serie A revenues are still increasing, but just at a slower rate as the other big five leagues.

    I agree there are only a handful clubs who can sign whatever they want, but even the tier below the clubs you mention sign players for 20 million. Dutch players belong, currently, not among those signings. Dortmund, which you mentioned as example (indeed a club of a lower tier), signed Mkhitaryan for 27 million past season.
     
  16. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    ^^There is no money in Italy for new stadiums. All the clubs are having trouble in terms of getting new players in. They are trying to get players on one year loans and then figure out how to come up with the money to pay them in the out years. I do hope the Bundesliga can get more TV money but I think there is a domestic issue in that those within Germany don't want to pay too much to watch football on TV. They still need to get more money in foreign markets.

    I disagree about the Serie A general revenues. If you look at most of the surveys that are done, the clubs are really slipping down. The loss of the 4th CL spot and the lack of qualification by Milan hurt as well. You are right about the Dortmund signing but the fact remains that they are losing top starting players (hope they can keep Hummels). Dortmund still have terraces for league matches and get 80,000 every match. Outside of Bayern & Dortmund the other clubs have not done particularly well in Euro competitions over all.

    I used to watch lots of Bundesliga but don't have a cable channel in my area that shows it any longer. Maybe the new TV agreement will move things around.
     
  17. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    That's correct. Only a few clubs are top dogs. And those go for the finished articles, like some say here above (agree).

    My observation was though that even clubs of lower tiers make 20+ million signings. Even Napoli made a 30-40 million signing recently.

    So the cash exists (I think), yet our Dutch players aren't wanted that much.
     
  18. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Story I read today is that Napoli want Fellaini from ManU but don't have the funds for an outright buy. Want a one year loan with right to purchase after the season. Of course Napoli get CL money this season.
     
  19. onzie77

    onzie77 Member

    Ajax
    Netherlands
    May 18, 2012
    miami
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    I think frank de boer is a winner as a coach, and can't wait for him to coach the national team, but there is a big difference between coaching to win, and coaching to develop players. I think at this stage, Once ajax stadium is built they should get a coach willing to play more attractive adventurous football. what happened to the cruyff revolution. We have the youth to play the midfield position, any trip to a plein and you will see kids as young as five with crazy dribbling skills, we just need to translate that to the bigger field and maybe make it easier for parents to afford having their sons play for club teams.
     
  20. MrOranjeBal

    MrOranjeBal Member

    Apr 7, 2009
    Club:
    AZ
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Ajax' stadium was built in the nineties, finished in 1995 or a few years before that even... What are you on about? There are no plans for a new Ajax stadium, as far as I know?

    Maybe you mean Feyenoord?

    And parents being able to afford their kids playing? There's loads of clubs in NL where kids can play and they are not that expensive. And depending on in which municipality you live there are subsidies available for those on minimum wage or on welfare, I think.


    ??? What are you on about?
     
  21. onzie77

    onzie77 Member

    Ajax
    Netherlands
    May 18, 2012
    miami
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    sorry sorry meant feyenoord, and i'm talking about these kids who are usually morroccan, or antillaanse and they can't afford the travel and moving costs of following a kid throughout his career
     
  22. MrOranjeBal

    MrOranjeBal Member

    Apr 7, 2009
    Club:
    AZ
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Okay... But when they're any good clubs will reimburse parents. Not when they're 10 or 13 of course but travel is very limited at that age.

    I'm not sure the problem you hint at actually exist....
     
  23. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
  24. Abhirup

    Abhirup Member

    Nov 26, 2013
    Kolkata
    Nat'l Team:
    India
    Just found this on Twitter: (BeNeFoot)

    Fascinating comments from Bert van Oostveen that money is becoming ever more important in international football and that the Netherlands' traditional advantage in infrastructure and footballing know-how is no longer unique to them.As a consequence, van Oostveen says the KNVB cannot stand still and must keep developing and being innovative. #oranje

    But are they really doing something to stay ahead of the curve?? What kind of innovation program/model has been planned for/implemented by the federation? Could someone shed some light on this? Cheers!.
    :)
     
  25. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    What they will do is unknown. A conference/review was planned before the WC started said FA chairman Van Oostveen.
    http://www.nusport.nl/voetbal/3790281/van-oostveen-bezorgd-dalend-niveau-eredivisie-en-oranje.html

    That this wouldn't be cancelled was anounced directly after the WC
    http://www.goal.com/nl/news/441/ned...5628/van-oostveen-stilstaan-is-achteruit-gaan

    What we can distill though are two things:
    - Regional education centres need to improve
    - They will try to play more often against the top countries ( http://www.nusport.nl/voetbal/3842709/oranje-gaat-oefenen-europese-toplanden.html ). Whether that will succeed is of course a different matter (those same top countries are now forming the 'Nations League' for maximizing revenues, which might exclude Orange NT from the top level matches). But they will give it a try to play more often against top opponents.

    Yesterday he said:
    "We need to be innovative. Big money has become increasingly more decisive in international football. Like we made the difference in the past with our way of educating players, isn't sufficient any longer. Knowledge can be bought, the competitors did not sit still."

    Hiddink added that resistance at top level is important for maturing talents. "In this respect it can be said the difference between the NT and Eredivisie has become too large [...]. At the end of the day it is about resistance, to become quickly better and stronger."

    http://www.ad.nl/ad/nl/1049/Oranje/...nd-tussen-Eredivisie-en-Oranje-te-groot.dhtml
     

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