https://www.stltoday.com/news/local...48d3d8f6-9994-5938-8390-be91f27a810d.amp.html STL stadium renderings.
What I said is that it is possible that the league could someday expand to 32 clubs. I still believe that 30 is the long pause. The NHL originally expanded to 30 clubs in 2000, and didn't add it's 31st club till 2017. The NBA didn't reach 30 clubs till 2004, and they are till in a holding pattern, with just recent whispers about the possibility of looking at expansion to 32. But officially are not interested in expansion. I can envision a similar drought in MLS expansion, once the 30th club hits the pitch.
that is a friggin sexy stadium/ STL and SAC are gonna be great for the league. If SJE dont improve in a hurry, they are going to bleed NorCal fans arterially.
Hammering Sporting at home could be reason for optimism in San Jose. It's also interesting to see the MLS4thelou.com website now. Until a few days ago, the website was dedicated to providing a rationale for St. Louis to get an MLS franchise. Now that the stadium rendition has been revealed, the website is only about the benefits the new digs will provide to the immediate St. Louis community and the greater metro area. It almost seems like St. Louis and Sacramento are slam dunks (barring any last-minute snags). Assuming both cities will be announced as teams 28 and 29, I wonder if Team #30 will also be announced during the All-Star break? It seems as though the league wants to have an even number of teams for each season. Reports say that's the preference of a majority of owners, although it's not a deal-breaker on future expansion if the league has to go with an odd number of teams for just one season.
The most logical solution is a number divisible by four or six. Two conferences whose top team (determined by playoffs most likely) plays the opposite conference's top team. Those two conferences are then subdivided into 2-4 smaller groups/divisions. Playoff seeding starts with the division winners and then includes a reasonable number of "wildcard" teams to make a profitable and fairly logical playoff structure. In other words, the final structure will be similar to the NFL, MLB, NBA, and NHL structures. Pro/rel will not be part of the equation because it has no precedent in the US sports culture and it makes no sense in our market.
It sounds like 28 and 29 will be Sacramento and Saint Louis... The question will be who will round out expansion. Honestly, my bet is we’re going to 32. *one more team in the Southeast: Charlotte or Raleigh are the front runners. San Antonio might be third season in that group. If something goes wrong there, Tampa Bay, New Orleans, Jacksonville, Birmingham, and Memphis are alternates. My bet: Charlotte *one more team in the Southwest: Phoenix or San Diego are the front runners. Las Vegas is a close third. And, Albuquerque, El Paso, San Francisco, Fresno, or another LA metro team are dark horses. My bet: Phoenix *one more team in the Midwest: Detroit or Indianapolis are the front runners. Milwaukee could sneak in as a top contender. Then, it’s Cleveland, Louisville, Pittsburgh, Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse, Tulsa, Oklahoma City, or another Chicago team. My bet: Detroit From there... 4 conferences West: LA Galaxy, Los Angeles FC, Seattle Sounders, Portland Timbers, Vancouver Whitecaps, San Jose Earthquakes, Sacramento Republic*, Phoenix* East: Colorado Rapids, Sporting Kansas City, Real Salt Lake, Chicago Fire, Columbus Crew, FC Cincinnati, Minnesota United, Saint Louis* North: New York Red Bulls, New York City FC, New England Revolution, Philadelphia Union, DC United, Montreal Impact, Toronto FC, Detroit* South: Atlanta United, Orlando City, Inter Miami, Nashville, Austin, FC Dallas, Houston Dynamo, Charlotte* Schedule: Home/away in conference (14 games) Alternating home/away each season (24 games) Playoffs: top three from each conference.
https://soccernsweettea.com/carolin...charlotte-survey-9e26b7ba629b?gi=fac61bf1175b Article with screens of the MLS survey, they would look to have capacity reduced to 38000 for games, which is a lot imo.
I agree mostly with this re the expansion layout but prefer 8 divisions of 4 teams. Play division x2 (6) everyone else x1 (28) (alternate home/away). For 34 total matches. Top 2 in each div start playoff in Round of 16.
I wrote a blog about this a while ago. I like three conferences of 10 https://mlsbot.blogspot.com/2019/02/dirty-30-mls-in-near-future.html
"West" Cascadia+RSL CA Texas+PHX COL,SKC,STL,CHI (midwest) "East" ATL,ORL,MIA,NASH (Southeast) TOR,MTL,MIN,DET (Cold AF division) NER,NYC,NYRB,PHI (historic Northeast) CLB,CIN,DC+CAROLINA (kind of a hodgepodge) Pros: keeps most rivals together with tight geographic groupings Cons: separates DC from NYRB Maybe swap Nashville and Carolina to ur preference. This assumes, STL, CAR, SAC, DET, PHX get in.
========================= I am not really fond of us looking like other the other US sports with conferences & divisions. It would nice to keep soccer different and keep as much tradition as possible. Shield and Cups etc. We should just keep the 2 conferences Home and away within conferences 15x2= 30 game The other 4 games can be 2 H and 2 A against the other conference. Yes, it will take time, but you will get to play everyone eventually. Then again, if the OSOC were taken more seriously , you will meet some teams in the other conf. also = Another idea to give everyone a chance to play teams in the other conference is the restructure the MLS Cup (which is really our league cup (even though it should include USL-C and USL-1) All 32 teams play single elimination knock out cup, with "crossover"- Meaning #1 in the west would play #16 in the east. #1 in the east would play #16 in the west. Keep it up until you have the last West vs. the last East. = Then another idea, that is probably TOO radical, but its kind of follows NCAA football. With 32 team, play everyone once= 31 games 16 h 15 away Then next year flip it, 15 H, 16 away. The college football idea being if I play you at your house this year, you come to my house next year. I know 31 is an odd number, but in a sense, it makes the Shield a little more meaningful as everyone plays everyone. - I know these are all crazy, but once we went beyond a normal first division size 16-18-20 etc. , you knew it was going to end up this way. Too bad MLS could not see itself to be 2 Divisions and come up with some internal pro-rel system to always have a couple new teams in the upper division and have a "race at the bottom", not just always a race at the "top".
At 32 teams, I like the alignment and scheduling that you proposed. At 30 teams it would be more difficult to figure out how to balance regular season and playoffs. if you wentw with two confrences (East & West) but you can't play everyone without going over 30 games. With three conferences the playoffs get tricky (top 3 from each conference with a play in game/round for the 8 and 9 seed?). Another possibility is 5 separate 6 team divisions playing two games against division opponents and a rotating schedule with non division opponents (home and away year to year) but this would leave you at 34 games. The shield can still go to the best overall team overall and the playoffs would still determine the overall champion but that does mess with CCL qualifying if you ditch the East/West format.
This will sound ruder than I intend it, but it doesn't matter what you (or I or anyone on these boards, for that matter) is or is not fond of. The league will be structured similarly to the NFL, NHL, NBA, and/or MLB. It's the model that matches our traditions and culture. MLS exists in the US and will, in all likelihood, use a US model. European structures are irrelevant here due to multiple factors including long-standing traditions in our sporting culture within those leagues, competition from those leagues (plus the NCAA) for fan dollars, geographic disbursement of population and teams, and the overall ease of aligning schedules (TV and game) and playoffs within those structures. Outside of what the big European leagues do, there is not a whole lot of "tradition" inherent to soccer on a global scale. Leagues are merely organizational structures to create some sort of vague balance to the competition. There is nothing about one structure that makes it "better" than another when applying it to a different location. In other words, there is no "universal model" that works as well in the US as it does in a significantly smaller country like England or Italy. Aside from the league structure matching the traditional US models, I see no reason why the league will not keep the cup traditions alive. US Soccer has say in the USOC and CCL, but I do not see why the league would be interested in abandoning either of them as they represent greater exposure domestically and internationally (both competitions can be negotiated outside of the league broadcast package). The derby cups are a great cash grab for teams and follow the NCAA traditions of rivalry trophies, so there is no legitimate reason to ditch them either.
Absolute nonsense. Our traditions and culture? Are you kidding me. The NFL used to just name the league winner the Champion and not have playoffs. It then became two divisions in a one game Championship. MLB was two divisions and winners play for a championship. NHL had the winners of two divisions playing each other. The NBA had the winner of two conferences play each other. The notion of multi-team playoffs play multiple rounds is relatively new and haas zero to do with culture or tradition but instead was invented to make owners wealthier and, in our world of participation trophies, give undeserving teams a chance to win. Leagues where half the league are deemed "playoff worthy" is laughable.
I don't dispute some of which canammj, aetraxx7, and Sport Billy mention in their above posts. All three make some good points, even though I might not necessarily agree with them. One thing I like about the MLB and NFL post-seasons is that you could potentially get teams from different divisions who are relatively close to each other geographically playing for the title. The NBA, NHL, and MLS are stuck on this 'East vs. West' mentality when it comes to playoffs. I understand the reason the latter 3 pro leagues do this, and it makes sense from a financial standpoint in terms of costs to travel. As far as the 'tradition and culture' debate goes, I think it's all relative to the times we live in. Yes, you can argue it's all about money for the owners of the teams, but it's also about the prestige of winning a title and the pride amongst the players who accomplish the feat. Fans today may not be aware of their favorite team's origin or history. We think franchise moves as the Rams to Los Angeles, the Supersonics to Oklahoma City, and the attempted move by the Crew to Austin are relatively new things in pro sports, when in fact, they are not. When the NHL expanded for the 1967-68 season, it doubled the size of the league. Prior to the expansion, NHL teams played each other 14 times each season (talk about overkill)! 4 of the 6 teams competed for the Stanley Cup that year. In the expanded 12-team league, a divisional East-West split took place (Pittsburgh and Philadelphia joined Boston, Toronto, Montreal, and New York in the East; St. Louis, Minnesota, California, and Los Angeles were paired with Detroit and Chicago in the West). One thing that bothers me about MLS is its low television viewership numbers. That can be attributed in part, to vastly different viewing habits from the American public today, compared to years gone by. In terms of sports, about the only contest that draws in a boatload of viewers is the Super Bowl. A game between the Steelers and Giants will far outdraw a World Series matchup between the Pirates and Yankees, for example. People who never watch an NFL game over the course of the season, will tune into the Super Bowl; and many will tell you it's only because of the commercials or that they've been invited to a Super bowl party and use it as an excuse to get together with friends. Along the same lines, millions of people NEVER watch a college basketball game, but they'll fill out a bracket when March Madness rolls around in hopes of winning a prize at the end of the season, so at least a few of the games will hold their interest. Tastes and attitudes (and reality) change over the course of time. The neighborhood I grew up in is completely different now than it was decades ago. That doesn't mean it's better or worse, but I see it differently as a person of advancing age compared to when I was 10. Given my age and location (rural Illinois), there are very few people like me who enjoy soccer, and that makes it tough to have engaging conversations with others about the subject (so I appreciate a forum such as this). Many parents and grandparents will go watch their sons and daughters play a high school soccer match, but they don't necessarily understand the rules and once the kid graduates, their interest in the sport is pretty much gone unless they make a comment about some sort of fan violence they see on the news. As for the topic at hand for MLS, I don't know how much fan input is considered by the suits in New York as we watch the league evolve and grow. My only wish is that MLS Cup be played on the Sunday after Thanksgiving in late November. I think our pro sports seasons are too long and drawn out as it is.
Perhaps the use of "tradition" by me was in response to the "soccer purists" that believe the sport has some sort of global league structure that must be adhered to. I am familiar with the history of our leagues' structures since their inception. More important than what the leagues used to do before cable TV and the internet is what they have done since modern broadcasting evolved. Television, cable, and the internet have done more to shape the structure of the leagues than almost everything that came prior. This all boils down to money... The section I bolded is the real "tradition" in American sports. It is that "tradition" that will drive the structure of the league, not some vague European notion of a "traditional" structure, which we left behind went we went past twenty teams. Like it is or not (and I agree that too many crap teams get into the playoffs in every US league), this is how it works. Our traditions and culture as it relates to sports is all about the Benjamins. It's about ratings, advertising dollars, merchandise, and (to a much lesser degree) gate revenue. Our leagues are structured to minimize travel using regional subdivisions (this is true both in the East/West structure of the NHL & NBA and the American/National structure of the NFL and MLB). Playoffs and league structures have expanded along with the leagues themselves, but they have remained split into two larger divisions and subdivided over the years. MLB has been American vs National since its inception. The NFL has been AFC vs NFC since the AFL merged with the league. The NBA has had two divisions since at least the 1940s. The NHL has had two large divisions since the massive expansions in the 1970s. So sure, calling our current league structures a "tradition" or even part of our sporting "culture" may be a stretch, but fans buy merchandise celebrating division/conference championships, so it's something. "Unbalanced" schedules have a long-standing precedent in our leagues (with MLB being the last to board the inter-league play train), so that is something. Using the winners of the divisions and subdivisions to determine playoff seeding has been around for a long time and even extends to the NCAA, so that is something. "Culture" and "tradition" are the terms used by the poster I responded to, so they made the most sense to use in reference to the collective of many somethings that our domestic sports leagues have in common, structurally speaking. Call it whatever you want, but this type of league and playoff structure is more valid to MLS operating in the US than whatever England, France, Germany, and Italy are doing with their soccer leagues.
Any split of MLS into more conferences is going to separate one or more natural rivalries in the middle of the country. It could be KC & StL, it could be Tor and Mtl, it could be Atl & Nashville. It might put a team in a distant conference. It could be Minn or KC in the West. Fewer conferences keeps more natural rivals in the same conference, and reduces travel costs.
I don't disagree with that, but I still see it happening because there is an existing precedent. Like the Big Four, MLS will try to keep those regional/logical rivalries in tact. Hell, the NFL put Dallas in the NFC East just to keep their longstanding rivalry with Washington in place. MLB moved Milwaukee to the National League and (eventually) Houston to the American League to foster those regional rivalries more. The Milwaukee move has been so successful that the Brewers now cap the number of tickets available to Cubs fans. Simple thought exercise, definitely not saying this is how it would break out, but how hard is it to keep the rivalries in place if the league is divided into two conferences with two divisions? Since it appears that Sac & StL are in, I'll count them for 29 teams total (hypothetically, this give us 3 more for 32): East 1 (North) NYC NYRB NE Mon Tor Phil DC East 2 (South) Miami Atl Orlando Dallas Houston Austin Nashville West 1 (Midwest) Cincy Columbus Chicago Minn StL KC Colorado RSL West 2 (Pacific) Vancouver Seattle Portland SJ Sac LAG LAFC Three divisions of seven teams and one division of eight. Add three more teams, and maybe a little shifting to tweak it. For example: SD/LV/Phoenix to Pacific Charlotte/Raleigh to North (I realize they are "Southern" cities) San Antonio to the South Of course there are a bajillion scenarios out there using multiple from SD, LV, and Phoenix, Detroit, or even dark horse candidates that come out of nowhere (ala Nashville). This is just to demonstrate that it can be done, even if the Midwest division is ugly. You are correct though that the Midwestern rivalries are the most vulnerable, which sucks because their travel is always the greatest.
Very true. Assuming Sacramento and St. Louis are teams 28 and 29, team #30 will have an impact on where the split in divisions is, if MLS continues to go with a two-conference set up. If team 30 is in Phoenix, San Diego, Las Vegas, or even San Antonio, I think Chicago will stay in the East. If team 30 happens to be Detroit, Charlotte, Tampa Bay, or Raleigh-Durham, the Fire will shift to the Western Conference. Any other demarcation, whether it's through 3 or 4 divisions will potentially weaken rivalries with neighboring locations.
I'll add that a hard stay at 30 (which I do not buy) would probably result in two conferences with three divisions, which are much harder to break once you get past the big East Coast cities and California: East 1 NYC NYRB NE Phil DC East 2 Miami Atl Orlando Nashville 5? East 3 Tor Montreal 3? 4? 5? West 1 Vancouver Seattle Portland Colorado RSL West 2 SJ Sac LAG LAFC 5? West 3 Chicago Minn StL KC 5? Need to place: Dallas Houston Austin Cincy Columbus I have no idea how to split the rest without destroying the regional rivalries (same goes with moving Montreal, Toronto, Chicago, St Louis, Kansas City, and Minnesota). This is once reason why odd numbers do not work as well...
I agree that the split will come down to Chicago, St Louis, and/or one of the Ohio cities. Nashville is another "border" city that could go either way (or north/south). In any case, you are losing rivalries. The Chicago/StL rivalry exists in MLB and NHL and is a blast. I am looking forward to it in MLS; I'd hate to lose it before it even starts.
Along the same lines, if the people who make the ultimate decision on alignment are committed to a 34-game regular season, we could be faced with the prospect of either having teams only playing home-and-home contests with a handful of local rivals OR teams from competing divisions only facing each other every other year or two instead of once annually. Personally, I'd like to see all teams play each other at least once a season, and if MLS grows to 36, that idea will be scotched. When the NHL re-aligned a couple of years ago, St. Louis and Chicago lost a great rival in Detroit. When the Red Wings were hot, their fans would travel in droves to watch their team play at the United Center or Enterprise Center.
Culture is what you make it. Tampa Bay Lightning was just obliterated in the playoffs after dominating the regular season. I haven't seen much of anyone in the hockey world lamenting how unfair the playoff system is and how Tampa Bay is still the "real" champion.