You leave a crucial part out of my reply. Therefore I can't reply on this. It doesn't matter that match how he played in other matches. You was talking about the specific Frankfurt match ("I can't begin to imagine Pele doing what Di Stefano did vs Frankfurt"). You'll raise reps from the fans but that was the only substantiated example/argument you mentioned in your reply, therefore my reply was concerned with that specific game. Examples of quotes: Bobby Moore: "Pele was the most complete player I've ever seen. Two good feet. Magic in the air. Quick. Powerful. Could beat people with skill. Could outrun people. Only 5 ft 8 in tall, yet he seemed a giant of an athlete on the pitch. Perfect balance and impossible vision." Franz Beckenbauer: "He is the most complete player I ever saw." Jimmy Hill (pundit, expert and influencer - 1970): "The most complete footballer in the world." John Greig (greatest ever Ranger, b. 1942): "If there is such a thing as the complete football player, Pele was that person [...]. He was a hard bugger as well and capable of looking after himself. I was taken aback by his remarkable upper body strength and powerful thighs." Eusebio: "Eusebio: "Pele played in an era which had so many great players and in that atmosphere he stood out above the others. He was the complete player in every aspect as well as being a kind human being. " Tostao: "Pelé is the most complete player ever." Professor Julio Mazzei (Pelé his personal trainer, later followed him to New York as well): "Pele was the type of player who had extraordinary physical skills as we well as intelligence. Not many people are aware that he has an IQ over 160. He had a sense of where each player was during the game and calculated where the players would be according to their movements during the game. He did not have to look at the players because he knew where they were. This is one of the reasons he could see two or three steps ahead of other players during a game. Pele has a mind of a computer. Also Pele off the field to this day has always been a gentle and kind person. His has always and continues to live a clean life. So his greatness can be attributed to the type of person that he has been on as well as off the field." National team manager Saldanha openly criticized Pelé in 1969 for not doing enough defensive work and support, said as well: "Ask me who is the best right-back in Brazil and I'll say Pele. Ask me about the best left-back or the best midfield man, or the best centre-forward. Always I must say Pele. If he wants to be the best goalkeeper, he will be. There is only one Pele." Cesar Luis Menotti: "The best of all was Pele, who is a mixture of Di Stefano, Maradona, Cruyff and Leo Messi. It's ugly to compare but the greatest was Pele. If we believe that God made man, the "black" Pelé he made him perfect. He gave him everything. He lacked nothing, header, physical power, dribbling, finishing, inspiration, genius, temper, vision, goal. Everything."
Of course, I don't say they are all right and on the spot. But this is a response to: "I'm really yet to see the evidence of this [playing comparable to Di Stefano vs Frankfurt], whether in video or contemporary player quotes" This then state-of-the-art 'expert' had also a long-going relationship with Pelé. I don't say/think it's all 100% correct or neutral. A few references to him - not all mentions - from his two biographies (1977 & 2006): 1966 World Cup preparation:
That match is representative of Di Stefano, isn't it? The implication is I don't see Pele, or anyone else being able to influence match to that degree and still be such a goal threat. This probably comes closest to what I mean. The greatest all-round player of them all, he was a revelation in his inexhaustible ability to be everywhere on the field, scoring a goal one minute, making a crucial defensive play the next, always at the heart of the game.” — Paul Gardner, an American writer and commentator “He revolutionised forward play by his box-to-box mobility, his willingness to tackle back and his mastery of the attacking arts – shooting, close control, heading power and an eye for the most telling pass. A perfect footballer.” — Mike Langley, journalist “He could defend. He could attack. He could run, he could head the ball and use both right and left feet. He could play all over the pitch. He was the most complete player ever, something I’ve never seen anywhere else, and I’ve seen a lot of players.” — Jose Santamaria, former Real Madrid defender and di Stefano’s team-mate “One of things that made him remarkable was his elegance, his lightness of touch, his ability to play all over the pitch. He’s known as the first modern footballer or the first total footballer because he could play every position.” — Marcela Mora y Araujo, journalist who interviewed di Stefano on many occasions “di Stefano. My hero. For me, he was the most complete footballer in history. That’s my opinion” — Eusebio “The best. Tall, quick, agile, energetic, skilful, a great finisher. Great with his feet and his head.” — Eusebio “I’m not going to sit on the fence. In my opinion, one player was the most complete: Alfredo Di Stefano. [ . . . ] Di Stefano had it all.” — Eusebio
You are moving the goalposts once again. Now you include many non contemporaries. People and statements from after his time. I don't have time for this. This is running in circles. Read your own 'analytic' piece, I think Pelé could do something similar.
In case of the 'Nouvelle Vague --> New Hollywood' discussion there's footballing wise a possible parallel with 'Ajax --> Barcelona' (from after the democratic transition). In both instances the successor was blessed with more possibilities for sustained success, and sustained impact. Could develop and apply the core tenets + stylistic elements on a larger and bigger scale, bigger markets and with more weight (to attract and keep talent/experience). The hard truth is that there was a counter reaction from UEFA against Ajax and the Netherlands (in 1973), for financially motivated reasons (not because of 'hooliganism' etc.). Many people do not know that they are (arguably) together with Nottingham Forest the smallest team to win the European Cup. Carles Puyol today (team captain for 10 years), although it keeps some nuance out of course: http://www.sport-english.com/en/new...nterview-pep-and-inspiring-youngsters-5164754 https://grup14.com/story/the-men-re...ca-and-fighting-approaches-from-english-clubs Maybe there are other parallels in sports and football as well of course, where something is (just like 'Nouvelle Vague') grown further at a larger and bigger scale.
Something along those lines is not a strange thought. Per those guidelines someone as Platini or non-playing figures as Havelange as well. In terms of being a phenomenon (per requirements of the dictionary). You can wonder how noble e.g. Havelange was but - say - even Ali was not all glitter and glory either. Somewhat intriguing - to me at least - was Beckenbauer's comment when he turned 70: http://www.br.de/presse/inhalt/pressedossiers/beckenbauer-zitate-100.html Which (more or less) translates into: About the difference of football of the past and today: "Today one plays together. And we did not play together at that time. There everyone is running with the ball and then passes him [the ball] off. Then he who got him [the ball] went again running with the ball. Today much more is combined."
In terms of Pelé as a socially significant factor ('Pelé stopped wars' - and I believe he's in the top tier for footballers), there is an interesting counter argument on 'Quora'. It is not necessarily the truth, but it merits a passing glance. It starts with: Followed by: https://www.quora.com/Is-Pelé-overrated This was an interesting framework to look at things as well, by a 'Madridista' (Real Madrid supporter). https://www.quora.com/How-do-we-sum-up-the-contribution-of-Johan-Cruyff
what was a bigger feat Lebron winning it with the Cavs or Maradona winning it with Argentina? Lebron came back 3-1 a feat that has never been done before, led the playoffs in points, assists, rebounds, blocks, and steals. Brought Cleveland their first title in over 50 years. Not to mention he left a superior Miami team to return to his hometown to try and win them their first title.
Interesting comparison. There are many similarities, yes. I think Lebron achievement is still a bit below Maradona´s due to the fact that NBA final is yearly and WC has a 4 year frequency, so Maradona got even less chances to achieve something as big under such extraordinary circunstances. For instance, in the 14/15 season Lebron´s Cavaliers already were a real challenge for Golden State in the finals. If Irving and Love (he was subpar this year, but anyway) had played last year, the finals would have been as close as this year´s, because Lebron also delivered a legendary performance in those final matches, almost as great as his performances in the 15/16 finals. I remember at one moment there was a 2-2 tie in the finals, but then Warrriors coach found a way to lessen Lebron impact, which only was effective because Cleveland did not have a great supporting player to capitalize in that situation. Lebron even received 4 out of 11 votes for the MVP of the finals last year and we know that the last time NBA gave this award for a player that lost the finals was almost 50 years ago. Anyway, Lebron feat belongs to the transcendental moments of the sport, I was thrilled to see such an amazing all around and dominant performance under the circunstances you mentioned (3-1 deficit, against one of the greatest teams ever in NBA, Cleveland 50 years absence, etc). Now, he definitely sendimented his place among the top 5 players ever imo ( Magic Johnson opinion too btw).
Argentina wasn't an underdog team, thus by that token no. There was also no massive comeback or a long title drought, or a great team as opponent. That said, it is yearly and playing with eleven is different.
Yes I forgot to mention that this was also done against the best regular season record holders (73-9) Golden State. I am aware that Magic Johnson said that he is a top 5 player of all time, for me with this win he is the second greatest of all time, only behind Jordan. Kareem Abdul Jabar, Wilt Chamberlain, Magic Johnson himself, Bill Russell, Larry Bird rank outside of those two for me, but I don't know in what order I would put them. Kobe is ranked outside of the second group imho.
Yes, this is a very very close call...came back for a 3-1 for the first time ever in the finals, against the regular season record holder, leading the stats of points, rebounds, assists, steals and blocks, to finish Cleveland 50 years absence. It will take so many years to see another event like that in sports. On the Maradona side the main extraordinary factors are the 4 years frequency of WC, the dominant performance itself too and, especially, the fact that is harder to be so influential in a 22 men game than in a 10 men game. As for The top 5 ever, I agree with the names you mentioned, Im just unsure about put Lebron as a clear second or in the same bracket of Chamberlain and Magic for now. At the time of his retirement, certainly only Jordan will be a worthy comparison. And completely agree about Kobe, some people are overrating him a bit as a effect of his recent retirement, top 10 at best.