Who is the most overrated player ever, Zidane or Ronaldhino?

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by riflex, Dec 19, 2013.

  1. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    Gullit was the difference-maker, as you’ve mentioned, and was rightly chosen as the best player ahead of Maradona that season in the Guerin Sportivo podium. The h2h confrontations against Napoli decided that in my view. The only stain for Milano that season was that Napoli (seemed unbeatable and on their way to winning again) was accused of tanking games towards the end through bribes/threats.

    But in regards to Gullit, at his physical peak, I never saw such a dominant force of nature as him.
     
  2. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    As I said above *imho* it would be preposterous to say Gullit was the only reason for the defense (I'm not his biggest fan), but there is definitely a correlation discernible. How did Sacchi's managerial career look before and after Gullit? (so to speak). Funnily Gullit as a manager won more trophies outside of Milan than Sacchi did, LOL.

    I think more important than a past-prime Ancelotti and pre-prime Costacurta was that Donadoni found his best form. Donadoni was rated as the biggest flop in the 1986-87 season, but was one of the best in 1987-88. It shouldn't be underestimated.

    Something comparable also happened with Sampdoria in 1993-94. They immediately finished in the top three (plus Coppa Italia) while in other seasons they didn't get higher than 6th, with the exception of 1990-91.

    When all of Rijkaard, Gullit and Van Basten started together they only lost these games across all levels:

    08/01/1989 - Cesena 1 vs Milan 0 [Serie A]
    20/01/1991 - Parma 2 Milan 0 [Serie A] (MvB left field after 65 minutes)
    10/03/1991 - Sampdoria 2 Milan 0 [Serie A]
    02/04/1991 - AS Roma 1 Milan 0 [Coppa Italia 1st leg] (Gullit left after 27 minutes)

    Imho Gullit's main significance lays in that he was the first black European to lift a major trophy as a captain (to my knowledge Rio Ferdinand was the 2nd); he was also the first (and to date only) black European to be seen as (possibly) the best player in Europe or the world; he was the first black (and foreign) manager to win a significant trophy in England or in any of the big five leagues.
     
  3. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Milan was already ahead on points right? When Napoli threw away their final two games.
    The 1990 title decider was a lot dodgier when going by what happened on the field. What visibly happened.
     
  4. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    I know that we talked about this before (where you had the same impression with respect to GS) but the Italian sports press has a bit of a historic bias and friendly ties towards Argentina (and you see that when GS rated AdS/DM over Pelé, or when Argentina is ranked as a greater footballing country - whatever that means - than Brazil). Little wonder when they share 40-60% of the population with each other.

    Naturally the current press cares more about the non-qualification of Italy and United States (and to a lesser extent Spanish speaking Chile) than about other countries.

    I indicated and said it before, but I think for a part the fierceness of the criticism the player Zidane has endured over time (the thread's title) is related to those background dynamics (linguistic, media, sports companies). I've elaborated and expanded on this previously but it plays a minor role.
     
  5. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011

    They started to lose or draw games before those last three defeats. They literally threw away the league by only producing 1 point in their last 5 remaining games. To make matters even more suspicious is why did Maradona sit out the last two games ? Some have claimed he was banged up but that’s folly because he played through injuries many times and especially if a title was still in play. There was just something very strange how things panned out down the wire in that season.
     
  6. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #131 PuckVanHeel, Nov 17, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2017
    Because of a loss against Juventus and a draw against Verona. Teams where AC Milan only achieved a 0-0 draw against in the 2nd half of the championship.

    Then in the final two games Napoli lost against Fiorentina (where Milan lost and tied against too) and against Sampdoria (Milan achieved a 1-1 draw and 2-1 win)

    On the field nothing (or little) strange happened. I don't say it is impossible, but no high ranked official or so has spilled the beans, while at the same time during the 1990 deciders strange red cards and strange cancelled goals did happen against Milan and it is there for all to see on tape. Napoli's sporting director was Luciano Moggi.
     
  7. wm442433

    wm442433 Member+

    Sep 19, 2014
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    I think that it has much to do with the fact that he has not much goals on his wiki page and that paradoxically, given his playing-style, he is not really a player of highlights (youtube). Because it doesn't show how he owned the matches, how he was the dominant player over the 21 other actors, raising the level of his teammates and getting the upper hand on his opponents (technically and mentally). In brief, how he was inluential on the games, how he directed it.
    As for the people who really saw him play, of course if they have critics on some aspects of his game and that it is argumented, that is certainly receivable. But you can't have everything : dribbling past players is very consuming so you can't always have the lucidity in the final gesture, I mean, with the ball, at the outskirts of the goals. He dropped back a lot to organize things from a deep position too; I repeat myself (in regard to a post which is old enough though) but he was a #8-10 at a time when the midfield was really congested. And his greatness is much about it if somebodies did not understand : as Valdano said, he oxygenated the game. And he was always here in the big games. In order to win generally, though it was not always possible ofc (most of all in 2006 after what he did) as there is only one winner in the end (he won those three finals but lost some too as the CL's with Juve and yes, 2006...). 97, 98 (the wc right after a defeat in cl...), 2000, 2002, 2006...he was of all of these finals..."overrated", oh yeah.

    The big blow is that red card in the 06 final. But laughter is the best medecine. In regards to this game, I mean. Because this violent behaviour, yes, it is a problem. Most of all when we know that it was reported that him and his "clan" had peculiar methods towards the journalists, so off the field : Zidane and one of his brothers menaced a journalist of Le Monde by phone after they published an itw of him in 2002 entitled "At Real, I stopped using creatine". Zidane phoned him, said are you happy? Are you happy to tarnish my image!" Then his bro took the phone, insulted the journalist and told him to never go to Marseille or he will see what will happen to him. Much worse, this : http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-fr...n-veut-a-la-biographiede-zinedine-zidane-.php But nothing was ever proven and the official speech of the author of this biography remained that no, herself, her editor and contributors never received any menaces. "Off", it can be different. The (female) contributor who was burgled at his home gave up before the book was out btw.
    The medias can say anything (when they're not on his side) he is, like a documentary on him says in its title, "intouchable". It's the case with most of the champions, this ''mafia-system'' + the ctrl on/ the complicity with some medias, instances, buisness groups etc. but with him there is/ was a climate of violence that transpired. Yes, it's a problem. The man is not that angel that some (including hismelf first) want to buy ofc. On the contrary.

    Now back to the topic, back to the field, the people who "underrate" him/ think that he was not that great as a footballer never saw him play, simply.
    As for what you said, I think it played a minor role as well. Nobody cares about all that cr*p. Me too if I only judge on the player. Though it's linked naturally in some way. His "nervosity" so to speak, the will to be the boss (sometimes really at all costs)... the doubtful relationships... but all the great champions are a bit like that. That's professional sports. And its system. He's not really an exception in that regard, far from it. Regretfully. But all of that is obvious.
    Now, judging on the player and only the player is what we all do or then, the best player ever would be (perhaps) Sylvain Kastendeuch. Eh, it is less sexy...

    But I don't know why I talked about all of that. Well, that was to discuss.
     
  8. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    I won’t rule that out either. But the turning point was in the 21st league match when they lost at home to Roma. From then on they only won two games and suspiciously their captain didn’t play in the final two rounds when all was not lost yet. Accusations that players were bribed/threatened by the Camorra, etc. Of course none of this was ever substantiated, but it was surprisingly suspicious that a team that was steamrolling through mostly everyone in the league up until the 20th round and in the lead, all of a sudden started to drop points and rarely could beat anyone. Most of the press already had them as champs once again. It just didn’t make much sense.
     
  9. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #134 PuckVanHeel, Nov 17, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2017
    @wm442433

    I meant the last paragraph in relation to the previous ones. That there was more of a vulnerability to criticism because (in brief);

    1) Outside of France, there are few fans that support their clubs or the national side (or: Italy has less of a shared heritage with them). Their clubs don't have the resonance that even the South American clubs have.
    2) Limitations of the language. And the Francosphere is (in sports/football) not as big as some others. It doesn't create a 'critical mass'.
    3) Yes there is France Football but their media play a relatively minor role, especially audiovisual (BeinSport is not even French). Just look at which media and editors have received a medal from the FIFA and UEFA. South Americans, Germans (+ Swiss, Austrians, Czech), English speakers way ahead.
    4) Like the media - and this all relates to each other - they have few sports companies of note (Italy used to have them btw). For the ones who think of Le Coq Sportif: is already for 50 years not French-owned and a small subsidiary.

    There are some more things to mention, but when I typed the last paragraph I was thinking into this direction (in the past I have done this better and with more clarity). Remember: Ronaldo received a lifetime contract from Nike at the age of 21, Zidane when he retired. Or to flip it around: the demographics for jingoism are not as large; the forces behind criticism are considerable.
     
  10. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    It is possible that the theory is right and the Camorra was afraid of losing large sums because of the bets placed on winning games, but if true it is then an example of 'what comes around goes around'. Those things can backfire.

    All those theories revolve around the payouts of bets that would have been too high.

    The peculiar thing is though that the otherwise very talkative Maradona has denied this happened (source: Wilson his book; "people talking crap"). That should be a notable circumstance at least. This is the man who has said, accused or admitted to many other things. Instead, Maradona blamed his lower back problems and also his own team mates who wanted manager Bianchi to be sacked even though the manager started to experiment. There are other relevant figures as well (chairman Ferlaino, director Moggi) who went on to talk about greater things, but have denied this too (if I'm not mistaken).

    Like you hint at, various investigations found out a lot of things (especially in the aftermath of Tangentopoli and the financial implosion of Napoli), but not a substance or hint for this theory. Declan Hill is the primary expert on these things and he seems to discard it as well.

    Besides, in terms of plausibility, by doing such thing (stealing money on a grand scale in one moment, and stealing an emotionally wanted championship) the Camorra would risk their own support base and local backing. This 'organization' is locally successful because they have public backing, and provide support to the community. I suppose you're aware of the basis of their 'success'.
    But I wouldn't say it is entirely impossible, after all Milan got embroiled into similar things after 1993-1994 too.
     
  11. LiftYourGame

    LiftYourGame New Member

    Manchester United
    Nov 17, 2017
    Can't have an overrated player discussion without mentioning Gerrard ;))))

    In all honestly R10/Zidane aren't really overrated, although the former has a few fanboys who forget that he now sells fidget spinners on his Instagram (who knows why).
     
  12. wm442433

    wm442433 Member+

    Sep 19, 2014
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    Yes I understood ("language" etc.). But no I don't think that these facts play a big role in it. I don't think that he lacked recognition around the world when he was playing. Nor after. And it's that I'm not aware of fiercy criticism about him at all, outside of the internet forums. Even not potentially because he performed agianst teams from all the regions of Europe and from all the continents and is for example still much admired as a player in Brazil.
    Ronaldo/ Zidane : Ronaldo scored goals (and also was announced as the successor of no less than Pelé, not Platini). A midfielder like Zidane needed to shine in an Euro or most of all in a World Cup. He was not good in '96 in England so yes, he could be attractive only in '98, not before. He was 26 years old. After what I don't think that he had problems to find contracts of all kind.
     
  13. leadleader

    leadleader Member+

    Aug 19, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    #138 leadleader, Nov 18, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2017
    I think it's actually the opposite of your statement above... The fans who overrated Zidane, are precisely the fans who never consistently watched Zidane play, but at the same time the fans who did watched a couple of high profile games, such as the World Cup Final (1998), the Euro Semi Final (2000), World Cup Quarter Final (2006), etc.

    On the other hand, the fans who actually consistently watched Zidane play throughout his career (or the famous half of his career at least), do remember his awful Champions League 2000-01 (where he arguably single-handedly ruined Juventus' Champions League campaign), and his disappearance acts in 2 consecutive Champions League Finals (playing for a Juventus team that had won the 1996 Final without Zidane, and against a better club in 1996 than the club they couldn't beat in 1997), and his subpar Final at Euro 2000 (where France won the Final anyways, after having benefitted from incredible luck in the final seconds of regular time), and how Alessandro Del Piero was consistently as good or better than Zidane, etc.

    Overall, a clearly overrated legend as far as I'm concerned. And an overrated legend who benefitted from a great deal of luck as well: Ronaldo's purportedly near-death experience before the World Cup Final (1998), which devastated not only Ronaldo's own performance, but most importantly the performance of the collectively traumatized team; Italy's devastating bad luck in the final minutes of the Euro Final (2000), which Italy should've won based on merit; other teammates stepping up in the big games where Zidane was not making the difference, for example vs. Spain (2006) and vs. Croatia (1998), games in which Zidane was clearly not the best player in his own team, let alone the difference maker that he's unreasonably credited as in retrospect; Brazil's mediocre tactical system for the entirety of World Cup 2006, whereby Brazil revolved around an overweight striker who thoroughly nullified Ronaldinho's passing ability, and of course the collective stress of having an overweight striker who cannot offer off-the-ball energy, added to a version of Ronaldinho who couldn't pass the ball (because the overweight striker can't run, and therefore can't create openings for Ronaldinho's passing ability), and also a version of Ronaldinho who couldn't dribble as much as he could at Barcelona, given the fact that Kaka also had the creative license to dribble (therefore limiting Ronaldinho's own creative license to dribble); Bayer Leverkusen 2001-02 was vastly inferior to Real Madrid; etc. So many of Zidane's great moments are directly and/or indirectly conditioned by good luck.
     
  14. leadleader

    leadleader Member+

    Aug 19, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    #139 leadleader, Nov 18, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2017
    Not scoring a penalty kick, is not the same thing as "killing the chance of the game." Your bias against Messi is showing. Killing the chance of the game is what Barcelona repeatedly did in the first leg, where Barcelona repeatedly failed to score easy goals, at least 3 of them.

    The above statement is thoroughly irrational, and again, demonstrates your bias against Messi. (In fact, your bias appears to be, in general, anti-Argentina, going by your curious fixation on both Maradona and Messi.) Furthermore, the simple and honest answer to your irrational circular logic is: Messi12's miss was totally dependant on him, the same exact way that Ronaldo13's miss was totally dependant on him---both players missed clear-cut chances to score, but one player offered more outside of the goal that he failed to score. Messi offered more dribbling ability and more overall influence than Ronaldo did outside of failing to score clear-cut goals. Ronaldo didn't do much in the first leg (outside of scoring a well-assisted goal), and then Ronaldo was the obvious WMOTM in the second leg. In conclusion: Messi vs. Chelsea 2012 is obviously better than Ronaldo vs. Borussia Dortmund 2013---because Messi is a much more active threat outside of simply scoring or not scoring goals.

    Messi13 won La Liga, produced 3 times more dribbling runs than Ronaldo13, and also scored more or less as many goals as Ronaldo13. Not to mention the fact that Messi was out of form when Bayern Munich humiliated Barcelona, or the fact that Barcelona was humiliated with Messi in the first leg, and again humiliated without Messi in the second leg. On the other hand, Cristiano Ronaldo humiliated himself in a game that Real Madrid won by a 2-0 margin; Robert Lewandowski was better rated than Ronaldo in both legs of the Semi Finals, but also in the Group Stage as well; Ronaldo disappointed in the Copa del Rey Final, where he was not superior to Diego Costa, and a game that Atletico Madrid won; oh and, Ronaldo13 did not win any trophies. So no: Messi13 was not a greater disgrace than Ronaldo13.
    .
    The statement above is not only plainly irrational, but also overtly laughable. The criteria being used by you, is not the criteria being used by me---obviously. Oh and, I will not continue my discussion with you---if you cannot understand that 2012 was obviously Messi's year, and if you also cannot understand that Ronaldo13 is not even remotely comparable to Messi12, then I see no point in continuing to entertain this discussion.
     
  15. Sir_Artur

    Sir_Artur Member

    Nov 21, 2014
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    I was going to close this discussion and focus on Maradona, this double standard made me write on on this topic.
    Messi missing a penalty is not the same thing as "killing the chance of his team" but other Barcha players missing chances in the first leg is the thing that killed the hopes? Who is biased in favour of or against Messi? This answer should show.
    We will see who is biased against or in favour of someone.
    I am not biased against Argentina, I will not deny I consider Maradona the most overrated player but it has nothing to do with Argentina, even if he was my countrymen I would still think he is overrated assuming him being my countrymen would not affect my thoughts. I gave my reasons for why I think he is the most overrated.
    About Messi: You take one thing of Ronaldo and claim that was the reason his winning was not worth while not applying the same thing to Messi, that is why I oppose it.
    Actually, I reckon Messi to be far better than C.Ronaldo.
    (The post was divided into two by me, it originally was not the same with the way I quoted it.)
    [2] Messi did more dribblings, no one deny that. One thing you need to know is: Ronaldo13 also contributed to the game in other ways. His off the ball movement, his positioning and his rarely successfull dribbles, him removing defenders with his movements without the ball and creating chance for others are some of the ways Ronaldo contributes to the game. One does not need to be a dribbler to win the ballandor. One may contribute in other ways.

    Leadleader's arguement would have been sound only and only if you have a presupposition: In order to win Ballandor one has to offer dribbling, if no dribbling then no ballandor. The problem with this criteria is the reality is different. One does not need to be as good a dribbler as Messi is, ballandor may be given considering many other facts.
    Messi12 was the most prolific of the year and he performed many dribbles and passes, Ronaldo13 was also the most prolific of the year and unlike Messi12 he did not perform dribblings but he contributed in other ways.

    [3] and [1] So, we should oppose Ronaldo13 for failing in the match but not Messi12 for killing the chance that could have advanced them into the final? What is not understandable, zillions of dribbling do not compensate for the chance Messi killed. Zillions of dribblings do not make Barcha advance into the final, a gaol that was scored from that penalty could have given them the chance to advance but not dribblings.

    Now, again we need to look at reality: You may be super good, you may dominate the match for 88 minutes with the score being 0-0 and then if you miss penalty that could have given your team the chance to advance in 89th minute, your 88 minute domination does not count for anything.
    You may be the worst man of the match and if you score a penalty that could have given your team a chance to advance, your team advances.

    No matter how great you are, they do not cover the penalty you missed. No matter how great Messi was against chelsea they do not cover the chance Messi killed, zillions of dribblings will not advance you into the next round.

    I was gonna write Messi12 instead of Messi13, I now realised I wrote Messi13.
    The criteria being used by me is not the same with the criteria you are using?
    You oppose Ronaldo's winning for a match or two but I can not do the same for Messi?

    If we look at Messi12, I can find many bad moments of Messi that are comparable to Ronaldo's performance against Dortmund or worse than that:
    • Killing his team's chance to advance into the finals.
    • The decisive el-clasico match: Barcha reduced the 10 point gap into 4 point gap, they were going to play with Real Madrid at Cam Nou, Ronaldo scored the winning goal. Of course, it was a team play there, it is not tennis as @Sexy Beast says, we can not give all fame to Ronaldo for that goal and that league, same with the performance against Dortmund.
    • If I recall correctly, in 2012 Messi was chosen the worst player of the match against Celtic. I am not sure I recall correctly.
    I can find many if I search,I am not gonna do so. I want this discussion to be closed.

    If we can declare Ballandor2013 unsound for Ronaldo's performance against DOrtmund, same has to be said about Ballandor2012.

    but I personally see a slight difference: Football is not a tennis, it is not a two indiviual man sport as @Sexy Beast says, but the penalty is dependant on you and the keeper.

    Anyway, I am glad to close this discussion. I am gonna focus on Maradona's Napoli career.

    If any argentinian is reading this discussion, I want you to know I have nothing against Argentina. My top 4 overrated players are: 1. Maradona 2. Messi 3. Cr7 (Portughal) 4. Garrincha (Brazil). As much as I have from Argentina, I have from Argentina's rivals as well.

    I am willing to close Messi12 vs Ronaldo13 discussion. Thank you very much.
     
  16. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #141 PuckVanHeel, Nov 19, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2017
    Well, think of Agnelli's famous comments or compare Zidane's seasonal ratings (here example of one of his better seasons; intentionally I do not use 1998-99 or 2003-04) with the one of Iniesta for an illustration. Iniesta's grades/ratings are and were a lot more generous, despite producing less. Why is that in your opinion if I may ask?

    So I agree with you on "no lack of recognition" (and pundit criticism has to be seen in relation to him winning the 2003 world player and being runner-up in 2006 world player) but I'm trying to think of those type of press generosities here (post #129). Remember: even trained referees are humans.

    "
    The Influence of Social Pressure and Nationality on Individual Decisions: Evidence from the Behaviour of Referees

    Abstract
    This study considers the influences on agents’ decisions in an international context. Using data from six seasons of European cup matches it is found that football referees favour home teams when awarding yellow and red cards. Previous research on referee decisions in national leagues has identified social pressure as a key reason for favouritism. While social pressure is also found to be an important influence in this study, the international context reveals that referee decisions are also influenced by the nationality of the referee and team, and the reputation of the league."


    However, in more recent times the likes of Alan Hansen and Rio Ferdinand received quite some flak when they voiced that Zidane was glorified.
     
    wm442433 repped this.
  17. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    I believe that accusations were made because of how Napoli threw away the title. It’s also possible that some players took bribes or were threatened and it was kept silent until this day to protect the integrity of players. Maradona had stated that his house had been ransacked or turned upside down towards the end of the league. Whatever that mean’t I don’t know but it could be that he was not complying with orders until the threats became serious. The fact that he never admitted to any wrongdoing may be to protect his image that he and others tanked games. The excuse that he had back problems which required him to sit out the last two games is folly in my opinion. He was at the stadium watching from the stands and possibly ordered to sit out. This was a guy that played through injuries so I don’t buy that excuse.
     
  18. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Has Maradona never sat out due to injuries before? You can play through some injuries/pain and not others.
     
  19. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    He’s sat out before obviously but he’s also played through injuries when there’s still titles on the line. The suspicious aspect was the timing. There was still two games remaining and even though Milan had the edge it was still possible to win the league if Napoli would have won their last two games and Milan would have dropped points. In fact Milan did get a draw in one of their final games while Napoli lost both.
     
  20. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #145 PuckVanHeel, Nov 20, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2017
    This is a man who has said that he was under pressure (pressure exercised by the FIFA and Argentine FA president Grondona he claimed) to not perform well, or adequately, at the 1990 World Cup final. Keep that in mind.

    It is not impossible that it happened, but many things are not impossible (like dropping points against teams Milan dropped points too). The circumstantial evidence for this theory is however close to non-existent, for reasons stated above. It ticks almost none of the boxes.

    But if one chooses to get the Camorra on board to pressurize media (among other proven things), then it can also backfire in some - a minority - instances, that is true. That might be called karma.

    He has done it at other times too, and his best form was fading before he sat out these games. He did it before, for example in 1981 for the national side. He also sat out the start of the 1989-90 season, when Napoli was sole leader in the table after 5 games.
    Nobody will question his willpower at his pomp, or his talent (even though the highlight reels tend to be misleading imho, both in a good way and bad way), he was the outstanding player of the decade, but it are all humans.
     
  21. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Jimmy Burns his work (italics my own emphasis):

    "
    It had always taken a peculiar mixture of diplomacy and pragmatism to deal with Maradona, and Bianchi [the manager] lacked both at a time when his star player was beginning to show some of the pathological symptoms which had so undermined him in Barcelona. Bianchi had earned the nickname 'the iron sergeant' and his reputation for dealing ruthlessly with any problem that confronted him surfaced with a vengeance soon after the Milan match. He sacked six of his players who had threatened to strike because they objected to his methods. Maradona, who had issued a statement in support of the players in a gesture of solidarity, was furious. He declared publicly that Ferlaino [the chairman] would have to choose between Bianchi or him. Ferlaino initially gave his full backing to his manager and reminded Maradona of the contract he had just renewed.
    "

    With that background it makes it more likely someone sits out games (as well as some other players).
     
  22. wm442433

    wm442433 Member+

    Sep 19, 2014
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    Ok, I did not remember about these words by Agnelli.
    Now about the ratings and all, via PM a bit later maybe.
    (not this week I think)

    Thank you.
     
  23. zayn1122

    zayn1122 New Member

    Chelsea
    Brazil
    Nov 22, 2017
    Dubai
    LOL, I was reading all the blah blah until I found this. :D
     
  24. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011

    He said that ? From what I remember it was virtually impossible to play well for an Argentinian attacker in that final, more so if he was “half crippled” (Brian Glanvill’s words). Argentina were also missing 4 key players and there was no chemistry and experience together upfront with Dezotti. More importantly, West Germany dominated the match, with Argentina pinned back hoping to find a breakthrough. His marker, Guido Buchwald, became famous in Germany afterward for shadowing him and people remembered him at home as the man that canceled out the premier player in the game at that time. And then there was Codesal....
     

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