Who is the most overrated player ever, Zidane or Ronaldhino?

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by riflex, Dec 19, 2013.

  1. leadleader

    leadleader Member+

    Aug 19, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    #76 leadleader, Nov 5, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2017
    I think the 2013 BDO (Ballon D'or) was and remains demonstrably indefensible, and particularly indefensible in light of how Ronaldo has won the 2016 and the 2017 editions of the award. Below are just four of my many reasons:

    1. Ronaldo won 1 out of 4 games vs. Lewandowski, and Lewandowski won 2 out of 4 games vs. Ronaldo. Furthermore, Lewandowski scored more OP goals than Ronaldo, produced one assist more than Ronaldo (in fact, Ronaldo didn't registered any assists at all), and was MOTM 2 times more than Ronaldo (in fact, Ronaldo was not the MOTM in any of his 4 appearances).

    Moreover, in addition to the fact that Lewandowski thoroughly outclassed Ronaldo, Ronaldo was also the official WMOTM (Worst Man of the Match) and was also the Fan's WMOTM in a Semi Final game that Real Madrid won 2-0. Of course, the reason why it was so obvious that Ronaldo had been the WMOTM in a Semi Final, was because Ronaldo failed to score relatively clear-cut chances in a game where just one goal by Ronaldo would have qualified Real Madrid into the Final.

    Real Madrid won 2-0 even though Ronaldo was the WMOTM, in a game where a 3-0 result would've qualified Real Madrid into the 2013 Final. And to make matters worse for Ronaldo's BDO aspirations: Benzema scored 1 goal and produced 1 assist in that 2-0 victory, that is, Benzema was directly involved in all 2 goals of the 2-0 result. And to further deflate Ronaldo's (the big game player) contribution, big game flop Gonzalo Higuaín assisted the only goal that Ronaldo scored over the two legs.

    In conclusion: Ronaldo was everything but a big game player in the Champions League Semi Finals of 2013; heavily outclassed by Lewandowski; the WMOTM in the most important game that Real Madrid played in the 2013 calendar year; and as if that wasn't disastrous enough to kill Ronaldo's BDO aspirations right then and there (funny how it favorably decides Ronaldo's BDO right then and there, when it does goes Ronaldo's way), Ronaldo was also the WMOTM in one of the Group Stage games.

    2. Messi was arguably if not certainly superior in La Liga, or at worst, Messi was exactly just as great as CR7, except of course for the fact that Messi actually did win La Liga.

    3. Ronaldo was not the official MOTM in any of the 2 La Liga clasicos, the 2 most important games of the season for Real Madrid not counting the final 3-5 games of the Champions League. Also to note: Messi was the official MOTM in one of the 2 La Liga clasicos, in fact, Messi was given the best possible rating in his MOTM performance.

    4. Ronaldo failed to win the Copa del Rey Final vs. Atletico Madrid, which would've been Real Madrid's only trophy of the 2013 calendar year. Also to note: Atletico Madrid's Diego Costa scored the 1-1 goal in what ended up a 2-1 victory for his club.

    Conclusion:

    In 2016 Ronaldo won the BDO based (literally) on 3 goals (of which one was a bad free kick that miraculously was not routinely blocked by the designated wall), just 3 goals that Ronaldo scored against Wolfsburg, a club that finished in 8th place in the Bundesliga. Put differently: Ronaldo made the difference against mighty Wolfsburg (because Real Madrid needs a 'savior' against the 8th best club from the Bundesliga), and of course, Ronaldo was more or less mediocre in the Champions League Final -- but Real Madrid won the trophy, so logically the best player in the club that won must win the BDO.

    On the other hand... In 2013, Ronaldo was repeatedly outclassed by Robert Lewandowski, comprehensively failed in terms of demonstrating his superiority over Diego Costa at the Copa del Rey Final, was outclassed over 2 games by Messi in the La Liga Clasico (the 2 most important games of the season, outside of the final 3-5 Champions League games), was literally the official WMOTM in the second leg of the Semi Finals of the most important club tournament, failed to win a single trophy (including the upset that was Atletico Madrid's Copa del Rey) -- but Cristiano Ronaldo won the BDO, because in 2013 the BDO wasn't about the big games nor about the big trophies, instead, 2013 was the year of "Ronaldo was the best individual player, even if Real Madrid didn't win anything; trophies are collective achievements, not individual achievements."

    Funny how the argument routinely changes in favor of whatever is the designated yearly convenience for Ronaldo. When Ronaldo doesn't win the important titles: The important titles are collective achievements, and so Ronaldo should win the BDO anyways because he was arguably the best individual in a year in which Real Madrid didn't win a single trophy. And when Ronaldo does win the important titles: The important titles suddenly become Ronaldo's grand achievement, because after all, Real Madrid wouldn't have made it past Wolfsburg if not for Ronaldo (read: Ronaldo's hapless showing in the first leg is somehow predictably absolved from criticism in this hypothetical scenario where Real Madrid gets eliminated by the 8th best club of the Bundesliga). Also funny... how FIFA's The Best did not existed when Messi was (at least according to the 'expert perception' as well as the popular perception) heads and shoulders above Ronaldo in 2009, 2010, 2011, and 2012; Messi would've had 8 individual titles before 2013, instead of just the 4 BDO titles. And so the 2013 BDO was given to Ronaldo in order to fuel the rivalry with Messi, because it would've been 5-1 for Messi, had Messi won the 2013 edition.

    Of course, shortly after year 2012 Real Madrid suddenly found themselves in a position where they were the best team in the world precisely at the same exact time as the other top tier clubs found themselves in a period of decline and reformation... And thus the Messi-Ronaldo rivalry is now a 5-5 stalemate, where Ronaldo gets the technical edge of FIFA's new award (which merely just copies whatever the BDO deems to be correct), and where Ronaldo routinely wins the BDO on the basis of 2 or 3 games where he scores close-range headers and/or close-range tap ins. And if that isn't enough luck routinely helping out the lesser talent: Ronaldo won the 2014 Champions League after doing essentially nothing in the Final; Ronaldo won the 2016 Champions League after literally doing nothing in the Final (it truly was as mediocre as a world class player can get in any given important game); Ronaldo won the 2016 Euro literally without playing the Final; oh and, FIFA's The Best exists when Real Madrid is the dominant club in the world...

    Cristiano Ronaldo is clearly one of the luckiest players of all times (if not the luckiest player of all times), which in many ways does inevitably make him one of the most overrated players of all time -- a fact that should primarily become obvious on the basis of plain sight alone.
     
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  2. leadleader

    leadleader Member+

    Aug 19, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    #77 leadleader, Nov 5, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2017
    EDIT:

    I accidentally included some Real Madrid vs. Borussia Dortmund games from 2014 into the information above, which actually improves Ronaldo's argument for the 2013 BDO. Analyzing only the 2013 games, actually magnifies the fact that Robert Lewandowski repeatedly outclassed Ronaldo in 2013, which is then further magnified if games from October 2012 and from November 2012 are included into the 2013 analysis. (The 2014 games that I accidentally included - as notified above - were games from April 2014, late in the 2013-14 season.)

    Anyways, just to reiterate the underlying point: Lewandowski scored 4 goals in the first leg of the Semi Final (which Borussia Dortmund won by a 4-1 margin), and Ronaldo was the official WMOTM in the second leg of that same Semi Final (which Real Madrid won by a 2-0 margin). That fact alone would've immediately killed the BDO aspirations of Messi (assuming that Messi also didn't win a single trophy in the 2013 calendar year, which includes the upset in the Copa del Rey Final), but for whatever the many reasons Cristiano Ronaldo is simply bulletproof when it comes to repeatedly failing in the big occasions. Ronaldo was not the best player in the Champions League 2013. Ronaldo was also not the best player in La Liga 2013. Ronaldo was embarrassed in the worst way possible (reads: Lewandowski scored four times as many goals as Ronaldo, and was also all around better than Ronaldo throughout the two legs) in the Champions League Semi Finals. But Ronaldo somehow won the 2013 BDO. It's more or less impossible to consistently (if at all) compete against Ronaldo for individual awards, the stage has been rigged in his favor for the better part of a decade.
     
  3. Sir_Artur

    Sir_Artur Member

    Nov 21, 2014
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Country:
    Germany
    While it is a good post, it is a wrong post.
    The question you answered asked about the ballandors won by Messi even if he did not deserve.

    But still, these can be arguements against Ronaldo.
     
  4. leadleader

    leadleader Member+

    Aug 19, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    #79 leadleader, Nov 8, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2017
    I answered correctly, because the question I answered was a question about both Messi and/or Ronaldo, that is, the question did not specified one nor the other. The question (or premise) I replied to was the following: "What I don't like about the Messi/Ronaldo Ballon D'or debate is, quite often, people just say why they don't deserve it but, rarely can they prove that someone else deserved it more."

    My answer was a simply that Ronaldo's 2013 BDO was indefensible to begin with and today is even more indefensible, seeing how the 2016 BDO and the 2017 BDO are based only on 2 or 3 games (when neither Ribery nor Robben won the 2013 BDO based on only 2 or 3 games), and seeing how the 2013 BDO was based on who was consistently great for most of the year (when Ronaldo was not even close to being consistently great in 2016 and again in 2017). The rules simply do not seem to apply to Ronaldo... When he isn't consistently great, the BDO is not about consistent greatness, but about 2 or 3 big games... When he doesn't have the 2 or 3 big games in his yearly Champions League resume, then the BDO is not about 2 or 3 big games, but about who was consistently great for most of the season (which Ronaldo can no longer use to steal BDO awards, seeing how his days of consistent greatness appear to be over).

    Now, as for the question about Messi deserving or not deserving an award that he won -- he deserved all the awards so far in his career. It is plainly obvious that Messi deserved all 5 of his BDO awards, for example, Xavi 2010 did not have a stronger argument than Messi, in fact no player in the world in the 2010 calendar year had a stronger argument than Messi; there's just no obvious flaw in any of Messi's BDO awards... In other words: Messi deserved them enough (each one of his five awards), that there's no obvious flaw to identify/scrutinize. In contrast, with Ronaldo it's easy to identify the flaws, for instance, his 2013 BDO was flawed and his 2016 BDO was even more flawed (quite frankly: it was an insult to the sport). Honestly, why is this even debatable?? It should be plainly obvious at first sight.
     
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  5. Sir_Artur

    Sir_Artur Member

    Nov 21, 2014
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Country:
    Germany
    #80 Sir_Artur, Nov 9, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2017
    @leadleader, let us look at the context. The post you replied to was:
    which itself was a reply to the post#71 which asked the following question:
    what was that same thing which could have been said about Messi? The post post#71 was a reply to will give us the answer:
    "Nowadays its obvious.The Title of most overrated ever belongs to 5 times ballon d'or winner Cristiano Ronaldo, who actually only deserved this award in 08 and 14 judging by his individual performances."

    Even though not explicitly stated in the part you quoted in the beginning of your post, it was clear that the post you quoted was asking about the times Messi won ballandors without deserving them. Wrong adress but let us ignore it, it is a minor detail. The arguements still stand as they are related to the topic of the thread.


    Now, let us come back to your latest post [#79] in this thread, you argue that Ronaldo had undeserved ballandors while Messi deserved all. One point you raise is this one:
    One of your arguements was simply reversed variation of the rule you claim to be "not applying to Ronaldo." Look at your post#76, 1st point.

    Your arguement was based on his performances against Dortmund and Copa final which give us 2 matches Ronaldo had in 2013 (UCL semifinal matches). So, you claim that 2 bad matches Ronaldo had should have disqualified him from Ballandor?
    Your arguement is too funny, it has a funny part:
    How the hell this is supposed to DEFLATE Ronaldo's ASPIRATION? Being assisted by Higuian or whoever player is not minus to the player being assisted by him. It is a plus record for Higuian, that is all. The same for Benzema, Benzema shining in a match does not deflate anything from Ronaldo.

    Funny though you do not mention the 2012 UCL semi final match of Messi in which he missed a penalty, the penalty that could have changed the outcome of the match, that could have inspired Barcha to win. At least Ronaldo did not miss a penalty that could have changed the outcome of the match against Dortmund. In 2012, Messi was a topscorer in Barcha, Ronaldo had more goals in El Clasico, Ronaldo delivered in an elclasico in which the outcome of the match would determine the championship chances of both sides: Real was leading with 4 points margin, if they won it would mean they are almost champions. If barca won, it would mean they still have hope for championship. Ronaldo showed up at that time and scored a goal, Messi did not. Ronaldo was a star of semi-final's second leg even though he later on missed a penalty shoot-outs, like Messi, but unlike Messi he was a main man of the 90 minutes. Messi was not.But of course, Messi had 91 goals in 2012? So did Ronaldo have such stats for 2013, then how on earth Messi 2012 is normal and Ronaldo 13 is a fraud? Let us compare their flops:

    Messi 12:
    • Did not deliver in the el clasico that could have kept their hopes alive. Ronaldo did deliver in the same el clasico which almost meant that they are champions.
    • Missed a penalty against Chelsea in ECL semi final that could have changed the outcome of the match, that could have given them hopes to advance to the final. Even though Ronaldo also Missed a penalty in the same stage like Messi, he did deliver 2 goals in the same stage, unlike Messi. Ronaldo's gave his team a hope with 2 goals, Messi almost killed the hopes of his team with a missed Penalty.
    • Ronaldo started his Euro match as a flop of the match, then went onto shine against Netherlands, then against Cech Republic.
    • In elclasicos of the same year, Ronaldo delivered more than Messi. Messi had a great assist to Abidal.
    Ronaldo 13: I am just gonna agree with your arguements you argued in the post#76. So, in 2013 Ronaldo was outperformed in 2 matches by Lewandowski who was not a top5 ballandor nominees of the same year, Messi was outshone by Ronaldo in 2012. YOu may say he had more goals thus outshone Ronaldo, the same fro Ronaldo 13: He outshone Ribery.


    IN 2011, Messi had a near disaster continental championship on his home soil, yet went on to win the ballandor. Ronaldo 13 did not have such a fate. Messi's copa 11 is a greater humiliation than that of Ronaldo's humiliation he suffered from Lewandowski (actually that was not a humiliation from Lewandowski but i am just gonna say so as per your arguement).


    Ballandor 2010:



    or the year of the World cup 2010, the year Messi won the ballandor. In world cup he had the most number of shots yet did not score, was just running when his team was losing with 4-0 score in semi-final.

    Ronaldo scoring a goal assited by his teammate when his team was beaten 4-1 becomes a reason to deflate Ronaldo's case but when Messi running only when his team was beaten 4-0 does not become a reason to deflate his chances?

    In 2010, Wesley Sneijder has as much right to Ballandor as Ribery had in 2013 and vice versa, in 2013 Ronaldo had as much right for ballandor as Messi had in 2010.

    Wesley Sneijder arguably had even more chances than Ribery had in 2013. Sneijder was one of top scorers in World cup, compared to Messi's Zero (Did Ribery have such gap against Ronaldo in any competition in 2013?). Sneijder was a runner up in world cup, he was Seria A champion, engine player of the champion of Seria A, of the champion of the ECL, engine of the team that had treble in Italy and engine of the team that won the Intercontinental cup.
    • Inter - Barca 3-1 (2 goal margin) Barca - Inter 1-0 (Barca needed 1 more goal). Inter won by 2 goal margin and Barca needed 2 goal margin in the second leg, 1 goal needed by Messi. Messi did not deliver.
    Compare it with the humiliition Ronaldo suffered in 2013 (according to your point of view):
    • Dortmund - Real Madrid 4 - 1 (3 goal margin) RM - Dortmund 2-0 (Real Madrid needed 1 more goal in the same way Barca needed in 2010). Ronaldo did not deliver.

    Moreover, in 2010 when Messi did not deliver when it was needed, he was playing with arguably the best quality team ever in history, something Ronaldo could not have boasted in 2013 (by the way, after losing 4-0 to Bayern, Messi did not show up in the second leg but ignore it since it was decision of the coach and Messi did not win the ballandor. Just remember it). But after all, when Messi disappeared at the time he was needed, that is nothing. Just go on, he deserves it. When Ronaldo disappears, that becomes a fraud.
    Like Ronaldo, Messi's World Cup 2010 was a flop even though he was not as bad as Ronaldo was. Unlike Messi of 2010, Ronaldo2013 had a time he delivered when it was most needed: His 3 goal performance vs Switzerland, it is something Messi 2010 could not boast of.

    In 2010 Sneijder was more of a candidate than Ribery or whoever was in 2013 and it will leave us with this conclusion: as much as Messi won 2010 Ballandor in a right way, so did Ronaldo if not better. Messi's 2010 was more of a fraud than that of Ronaldo 13.



    CONCLUSION:
    Considering @leadleader's arguements against Ballandor 2013 winner, we need to conclude that the Ballandor winner of 2010, 2011 and 2012 is more of a disaster. It was more of a fraud.
    Ballandor 2010, 2011 and 2012 winner had greater humiliations than that of Ballandor winner 2013 (Ronaldo's performance vs lewandowski).
    Ballandor 2010 had a greater nominee that did not win the award than the Ribery 2013.

    EDIT: @poetgooner , @jared9999, @zahzah , @PMFmdf : it would be great if you join the discussion. This discussion was initiated based on your positions.

    EDIT 2: by the way, what about Copa America 2015? That was also a year Messi won the ballandor. I am afraid Messi's wins will have more double standars than the years Ronaldo won in (Except 2009).
    At least, Ronaldo 2013 have a great thing in his CV: he was the main guy in his countries qualification to World Cup. Except 2009, in all years Messi was somehow outshone by someone else in the middle of the year and he suffered a humiliation that was greater than that of Ronaldo 13 and that was suffered in more important stages of the game. If you are gonna accuse Ronaldo 13 for disappointing in his match against dortmund, you have to do it against Messi 10, 11 and 12 as well. Arguable about 2015 as well. The most notable one is 2012: Both in domestic league and continental club championship, he did not deliver like Ronaldo did not deliver against dortmund. Arguably, same can be said about Messi 2015 as well considering Ronaldo's humiliation he suffered from Lewandowski. We can say so if we agree with leadleader's arguements: Ronaldo's failure to perform against Dortmund. Messi also failed to deliver against Chile, Ronaldo failed to deliver against Germany in 2008, 2014 and failed to deliver against spain in 2012. This arguement of leadleader can not work, otherwise everyone would end up as a failure.


    We can eliminate Ronaldo 13 if we eliminate Messi's 3 or 4 ballandor wins. If Messi's 3 wins are not eliminated, so should not be Ronaldo's 2013 win. At least 3 wins of Messi is more of a 'joke' than Ronaldo 2013.
     
  6. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I have literally zero interest in the CR7 vs LM10 debate. It's been discussed to death. I know what I think about the two, and I don't have anything to add. Although, I do enjoy reading the back and forth.
     
  7. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    In a shameless attempt to divert the thread, let me tell you about a case of unwarranted Ballon D'or.

    The year was 2004. First of all Ukraine didn't participate in EURO 2004, so his win would have to be based only on club form, so that's where we'll concentrate.

    THE SCRUTINY
    1. Shevchenko's 24 league goals in 32 goals wasn't that impressive. Alberto Gilardino of the far weaker Parma finished at 23 goals. Totti finished with 20.

    2. Shevchenko's team was completely stacked. In addition to Shevchenko, Milan had 5 other player nominated for the Ballon D'or: Kaka (received vote) Maldini (received vote) Nesta, Pirlo, and Seedorf.

    3. Shevchenko was only a goal-scorer. He wasn't a team leader in any other department. Not the creative-leader (Kaka). Not the style leader (Pirlo.) Not the leader-leader (Maldini) Not even the vice-captain.

    4. Shevchenko wasn't even Serie A's best player. His teammate Kaka won the award in 2004. Considering his bid for Ballon D'or was mainly based on his league form, this was interesting.

    The ALTERNATIVE
    I will of course nominate Henry.

    1. Henry scored more goals in the league. 30 goals in 37 games. That is 0.81 GPG superior to Sheva's 0.75 GPG. In fact, Henry scored more goals than anyone in the top 6 leagues (England, Spain, Italy, Germany, France, Portugal.)

    2. Henry's gap from 2nd place was 8 goals. Also highest in the top 6 league, showing his dominance over his peers. Compared to the gap of ONE of Sheva in the Serie A.

    3. The Arsenal team was no where near as stacked as the Milan's team. Compared to the 6 Ballon D'or nominees of Milan, Arsenal had 2: Henry and Vieira. The latter didn't receive any vote. Although, I would argue, Pires was equally as good as Vieira that season, so either Arsenal should have had 3 (both get nominated) or just 1 (neither one get nominated.)

    4. Arsenal suffered many injuries to their attackers that season. Ljungberg and Bergkamp didn't play as many games as before, and Wiltord and Kanu were pretty much washed up. Reyes was brought in January and still made more apps. It was Henry's sheer dominance, Pires support, and the defense (whom all started 30+ games) that carried the season.

    5. As we all know, Henry offered creativity as well as goals. He scored more goals and made more assists than Shevchenko. So he did Sheva's main job better, while doing the job of Kaka as well.

    6. Henry, unlike Shevchenko, was named his league's best player. There was also the small matter of the Arsenal Invincibles run.

    7. Henry scored more UCL goals as well, while both teams got knocked out in the same stage. In fact, Henry league goals alone was more than Shevchenko's goals in all comps. In all comps, Henry scored 11 more goals.

    2004-2005

    Some may argue that Shevchenko's form of the next season might have swung some votes. Shevchenko's form going into the new year was 11 league goals (last game 16th December.) In the same period, Henry scored 15 goals (last game 12th December.) If we take it all the way to New Year, Henry would have even more, but that's not fair due to difference in winter scheduling. Using only the same period, Henry outscore by another 4.
     
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  8. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Not sure whether this is a totally balanced comparison. Both teams did well domestically, but dissapointed in Europe.

    Domestically Arsenal had, for example, four different 'player of the month' recipients that year - and not because they wanted to spread around the plaudits.

    See also:
    https://footballperformanceanalysis.com/tag/one-man-team/

    It is this 2003-04 season that is imho rightly the pinnacle of Wenger's managerial career (forgetting what he did in Europe). Arsenal had the 3rd or 4th highest wage bill of the league by that point.

    Ljungberg played more minutes in 2003-04 than in any other of his seasons.

    That is stretching it. The majority of Henry's assists came from the wings. He wasn't Kaka and Shevchenko at the same time.

    That is right, and I can see the case for Henry but Shevchenko his match ratings were higher than any other of his Milan team mates. On youtube you can find a few of his match compilations.

    I find neither of them overrated tbh. When I think of overrated, I don't think necessarily about a rank but about common romantic descriptions and false claims.

    Kubala, Garrincha, Moreno.
     
  9. Sir_Artur

    Sir_Artur Member

    Nov 21, 2014
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Country:
    Germany
    Now, let us talk about the most overrated player ever, DIEGO ARMANDO MARADONA.

    He is, by his fanboys and mainstream media, marketed as "the guy who earned average side argentina World Cup" he is also mythologised as leading outsider team Napoli to their league title.

    IN this post I am gonna talk about Argentina WC 86 squad. Were they as low as they are artificially degraded so that Maradona can shine even more?

    Just look some of their players:
    • Valdano was the best foreign player of La Liga in the same season, 1985-86. He was the 2nd top scorer of the league. In Uefa cup 1984-85 and 1985-86, Valdano was playing in a team that ended up as champion, Valdano scored in both finals' leg games. Scored once in the 1986 WC final.
    • Burruchaga was the best foreign player of French League 1985-86. His team was not champion that season, yet he ended up being the best foreign player of the league. Moreover, 3 years earlier he was part of the team that won Argentina league, copa libertadores and the intercontinental cup. Scored once in the WC 1986 finals.
    • Hector Enrique was a midfielder of the team that won Argentina league, Copa Libertadores and Intercontinental cup in 1986. All in the same year of that supposed average sided Argentina. He was in the starting 11 of the Intercontinental cup 1986 finals.
    • Pumpido: Like Enrique, he was the keeper of the team that dominated the tournaments of 1986.
    • Stopper: Ruggeri. He also was a part of the team that dominated the tournaments of the same year; he is widely considered one of the best Argentinian defender ever.
    • Daniel Passarella: He ended 1985-86 season in Italian Seria A, he mainly was a defender yet he scored 11 goals in Seria A 1985-86. After the end of the season, he was bought by Inter Milan.
    • Clausen: 2 years earlier he also was part of a team that dominated South American tournaments. At the time of the world cup, he was just 23.
    • Castrol Rankings chose best 11 of the WC 1986, 5 of that players were from Argentina Squad, compared to 4 players of Brazil 1970 which is considered the best national team ever. Ok, this castrol rankings rely on details rather than a performance but nevertheless, this ranking is good to see who made less errors.
    Now, compare this squad to the Germany of 1986 final's starting 11. Quick observations:

    • Germany's forward player Karl Heinz Rummenigge was playing in Intermilan in 1985-86 season, he scored 13 goals in 24 games he played in. Compare it to Argentina's sub player Daniel Passarella, a center back that scored 11 in the same season of the same tournament German Striker was playing in.
    • Germany's forward Allofs: In 1985-86 season, he was part of a Uefa Cup runner up team, he scored only 7 goals in the German league compared to Argentina's substitute center bacl Passarella's 11 in Seria.
    • Felix Magath: 3 years earlier, he was part of a UEFA cup winning team.In 1985-86, he was part of a team that ended the league as 7th placed team. He was an attacking midfielder, he had nothing worthy to mention in 1986
    • Lotthar Matthaus: Nothing. He was very great midfielder, nothing needed to describe him.
    No need to go deeper, Germany had players that were part of good teams in 1985-86 but when compared to Argentina 1986, their squad is not as good as Argentina's.

    Compare Argentina 1986's squad to Belgium's and England's as well (the ones Argentina faced en route for final), Argentina had better squad than all of their opponents.
    _______________________________________________________________

    Now, when I surf the internet I regularly see people saying "Maradona took the average side Argentina to World Cup glory." From Bleacher report discussion (comments may be partially quoted, I picked up the parts about Argentina 1986 squad):

    Robin S says the following: "Argentina’s 1986 World Cup winning side didn’t have many stars. It was all dependent on Maradona. And he passed that test with flying colours."
    Who is Robin S? He is a World Football Featured Columnist, and more a hardcore Arsenal fan. Very vocal against any negatives about his club, but very reasonable too.

    Maxx G says: "But Diego won the World Cup for Argentina on his own. " And one more: "Maradona could have doubled his contribution if he could have managed a winning Argentine squad"
    Who is Maxx G? Manchester United's Featured Columnist, and very popular among the B/R community.

    Kaustav Bose says: "As legend says there are only two players in history who have been credited to winning the World Cup almost completely by their own efforts. Garrincha in 1962 and Maradona in 1986."
    Who is Kaustav Bose? Liverpool Featured Columnist, and a great fan of statistics. Very popular among EPL fans unlike me.

    Sauro Bhattarjae says: "Diego Maradona is the greatest because he single-handedly led his country to their only World Cup in 1986."
    Who is he/she? a life-long Chelsea fan and a Chelsea Featured Columnist on B/R.

    Andrew Jordan says: "He almost single-handedly won the 1986 World Cup for Argentina and led them to another World Cup final in 1990."
    Who is he? A World Football Featured Columnist with nearly four hundred stories, and lots of respect with him. Equally popular on Bleacher Report.

    Their description are taken from the same page.
    _______________________________________________________________

    Note that I did not even read the comments, I just pressed Ctrl+F and searched 1986. This ratings of Maradona are taken from one site only, if you surf such discussions, you can see many instances in which Argentina 86 is described as a poor team that relied on Maradona.

    As we see, Maradona arguably was playing with the best squad of the tournament yet his fanbos, mainstream media and many people crack this squad to be a average sided poor side.


    Maradona is not only too overrated, he is mythologised. In order to make him be seen as quality as possible, media and so many self-assigned 'experts' degrade Argentina 86 artificially.


    This post is not the whole case for "Maradona is the most overrated player ever" this is just a minor part of that mythologisation.


    @PuckVanHeel , it would be great if you enlighten us on this issue. I consider your knowledge deeper than ours, you have access to too many informations. You regularly find them.
     
  10. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member

    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Country:
    Croatia
    #85 Sexy Beast, Nov 10, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2017
    Wow seriously people STILL debating Messi's 2010 and 2012 ballon d'Or.

    Let me put it this way:

    In 2010 Messi was so good that people actually compared him to Pele and Maradona.
    Nothing has to be added to that. If ballon d'Or is given to the best player of the year, i don't understand how can anybody, but the guy, because he performed that well, who started to be compared with two of the greatest player of all time, win such an award. It's the ultimate compliment or are you saying that comparisons weren't justified at the time? because that's aboslute bullshit and you know it.

    2012, 91 goals in a calendar year.

    I really get annoyed by those people who get nit picky saying he missed that or he didn't do that. Team thropies are irrelevant for such award. Whether he will show up in the right moment to make a crucial move is very depended on things... so you are left with consistency and overal performance of the year... Having that said, there is no other outcome than saying Messi deserved all of his ballon d'Ors, he should have had few more by his name actually because he is that good.
     
    celito repped this.
  11. zahzah

    zahzah Member+

    Jun 27, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    No, only utter Messi fanboys compare him to Pele and Maradona in 2010. He wasn't anywhere near the best in the world that year.
     
  12. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member

    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Country:
    Croatia
    I will let football speak for itself:






    All from above is 2010, just a fraction of it.

    Is it necessary to remind you all of your that Messi scored 60 goals in 66 apps in 2010?
    more so than anybody for decades and decades.
     
  13. Sir_Artur

    Sir_Artur Member

    Nov 21, 2014
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Country:
    Germany
    The reason I disputed it was to demonstrate the flaws of the arguements of @leadleader. When such reasons are used, you can invalidate Messi's ballandors as well.

    He is consistently rated as the best ever or one of the 3 best ever, that is why I think he is the second most overrated player ever.

    No matter how high quality player he is, he never has been as good as someone who can be worthy opponent to Pele. Same for Maradona. Unlike Messi, Maradona is mythologised as well. But let us see whether Messi fanboys will say "Barcelona of 2008-2017 was a poor team who was carried by Messi alone" in 2040s.

    As of now, Messi is the 2nd most overrated player, second to Maradona. The two is followed by Cr7.
     
  14. Sir_Artur

    Sir_Artur Member

    Nov 21, 2014
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Country:
    Germany
    He was not anywhere near the best in the world that year?
    I assume you meant "near the best ever." Or you actually meant "the best of 2010?"

    Really hard to tell it let alone back up. Then, who was the best in 2010? And where was Messi ranked? He must have been far beneath the best of 2010? We need at least 15 players that performed superior to Messi so that we can conclude Messi was not anywhere near the best.
     
  15. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member

    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Country:
    Croatia
    Are you actually suggesting that current Barcelona is amazing in any way?

    What's so amazing about it? Paulinho, Denis Suarez, Deulofeu, Alcacer, Iniesta way after his prime, Suarez who can't do anything, Arda, Alena,..?
    btw, he still does it.16 goals in 17 games this season. i thought he was a product of Pep, Xavi and Iniesta.. what's up with that? There is no even Neymar any more... that's weird.

    I wonder whom they will give credit now when nobody is there anymore. My best bet are Roberto and Alba. We'll see.
     
  16. Sir_Artur

    Sir_Artur Member

    Nov 21, 2014
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Country:
    Germany
    #91 Sir_Artur, Nov 10, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2017
    While I am not suggesting current Barcha is amazing, it is in no way a poor or average sided team.

    Barcha 2008-2012 was arguably the best team ever. Suarez is not someone who can't do anything, he maybe having a bad time, that is a short time compared to his career in Barcha. Iniesta is also still great though of course not as good as he once was.


    But of course there will probably be people who will say "Barcha 08-17 was a poor team, look Messi earned them 3 ECl cups." You well may be the spark (red part);)
     
  17. celito

    celito Member+

    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Country:
    Brazil
    Maradona was involved in what .. 10 of Argentina's 14 goals ? With a few very individual skilled goals. Yeah his teammates weren't chumps, but those stats show how important he was to the team.
     
    Sir_Artur repped this.
  18. celito

    celito Member+

    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Country:
    Brazil
    Nobody in their right mind will ever say Barca weren't a quality team all around. That's quite a bit different situation than Argentina 86.
     
  19. Sir_Artur

    Sir_Artur Member

    Nov 21, 2014
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Country:
    Germany
    I never dispute how prolific Maradona was, what kind of great weapon he was.

    But the problem lies here: Mainstream media and his fanboys usually present that squad as poor team or average side at best and present Maradona as if he has won what he has won with footballers of my village. As if Argentina gathered the footballers of my village and send them to World cup with Maradona.
     
  20. Sir_Artur

    Sir_Artur Member

    Nov 21, 2014
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Country:
    Germany
    I hope so, I hope no one will be as idiot as to say it. (Assuming you are talking about Barcha of 2008-2017)

    But let us see and wait, I really suspect there will be fanboys who will say Barcha was a poor/average team who just won everything due to Messi.


    After all, after less than 15 years people started to say Argentina 86 was poor/average team, Napoli was average team which in fact was PSG or Manchester City of 80s who were spending too much on transfer market.
     
  21. leadleader

    leadleader Member+

    Aug 19, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    #96 leadleader, Nov 11, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2017
    Messi vs. Chelsea 2012 (first leg):

    Messi vs. Chelsea 2012 is one of the all-time bullshit stories of football: a relatively good performance in the first leg, followed by a disappointing second leg performance. In fact, I think the first leg would've probably been one of Messi's GOAT performances, had Barcelona scored their 3-4 easy goals, thus opening the game, dictating the conditions from beginning to end, and ultimately creating far more openings for Messi. Barcelona should've scored around 3-4 goals in that first leg, but instead Barcelona didn't scored one single goal in that first leg at Stamford Bridge, and at the same time Chelsea snatched a lucky goal in what probably was the most miraculous, most logic-defying, result that I will witness in my time watching this sport.

    Furthermore, Iniesta and Messi were in my opinion, if not the best outfield players of the first leg, then certainly among the better performers of the first leg. Didier Drogba was the MOTM of the first leg, but purely on the basis of the team result, not on the basis of Drogba's actual performance level: which, again, Chelsea was thoroughly outclassed and, based on merit instead of luck, Chelsea should've been thoroughly destroyed in that first leg -- Drogba was not the reason why Sanchez, Fabregas, Fabregas again, Sanchez again, and Busquets, all missed clear-cut open play goals. Drogba simply scored his one chance, in a game that Barcelona should've won by a 3-4 goal margin.

    Messi vs. Chelsea 2012 (second leg):

    The "Messi did nothing vs. Chelsea 2012" argument is inescapably irrational, and also, it is a false equivalency of the highest order. Messi vs. Chelsea 2012 did missed a penalty, but he also assisted Iniesta's 2-0 goal, and Barcelona at that point in the game was going to qualify to the Final. Of course, Mascherano was caught badly positioned (and Chelsea scored the crucial 1-2 goal), and then Messi failed to score the 3-1 goal from the penalty spot. Funny how everybody remembers the penalty miss by Messi (under the pressure caused primarily by Mascherano's reckless mistake), but not the reckless mistake by Mascherano which was by far the most decisive moment of the game (when Barcelona was winning a home game by a 2-0 margin, that is, a moment in the game where Mascherano's mistake was indefensible, because he was caught out of position when there was no longer any need for him to push forwards).

    I think that's the bottom line of the Messi vs. Ronaldo rivalry: When Messi misses the all-important-penalty, Messi also creates the assist for a crucial open-play goal, because Messi's dribbling ability consistently creates assists and/or other forms of openings in the form of pre-assists, etc. In contrast, when Ronaldo does what he did in the Semi Finals vs. Borussia Dortmund 2013, he does not create much of any chances on his own, certainly not on the basis of his dribbling ability (which by 2013 Ronaldo's dribbling ability was no longer good enough to consistently run at defenders - like Messi consistently ran at defenders in his legendary 2012 form), and to make matters worse, Ronaldo also failed to score "easy" goals in a game that Real Madrid won by a 2-0 margin. Simply put: It is a false equivalency to directly compare Messi 2012 vs. Ronaldo 2013.

    It is also a false equivalency to directly compare Messi vs. Chelsea 2012, with Ronaldo vs. Borussia Dortmund 2013. Messi was a persistent threat and was generally good vs. Chelsea 2012, in contrast, Ronaldo was largely invisible and was also rated as the official WMOTM vs. Borussia Dortmund 2013. Moreover, other easily identifiable empirical differences include the fact that Real Madrid won 2-0 when Ronaldo was the WMOTM, and it is far easier to score goals when your team performs to such a degree that it wins 2-0 at the same time that it created the clear-cut chances that Ronaldo failed to score (hence why Ronaldo was identified as the worst man of the match). Messi vs. Chelsea 2012 was not a game that Barcelona won by a 2-0 margin, nor was it a game where Messi failed to score clear-cut open play chances.

    Messi vs. Chelsea (UCL 2011-2012):

    First leg: Drogba 4 stars out of 5 MOTM -- Messi 3 stars and a half -- Iniesta 3 stars and a half -- Lampard 3 stars and a half -- Xavi 3 stars and a half -- Sanchez WMOTM. (Goal.com.)

    First leg: Drogba 7.79 -- Messi 7.57 -- Lampard 7.16 -- Iniesta 6.94 -- Xavi 6.36 -- Sanchez 6.31. (Whoscored.com.)

    First leg: "Earlier, Messi had drifted past three players and laid the ball off to Andres Iniesta whose cut back was badly shanked by Fabregas." (Independent.co.uk.)

    Second leg: Cech 3 stars and a half MOTM -- Drogba 3 stars and a half -- Messi 2 stars and a half -- Terry 1 star and a half WMOTM. (Goal.com.)

    Second leg: Lampard 7.78 -- Messi 7.55 -- Drogba 6.72 -- Sanchez 6.45. (Whoscored.com.)

    Second leg: "A persistent threat but unusually profligate in front of goal. Shot an early chance into the side-netting, forced a good save from Cech, hit the post and smashed his penalty into the cross-bar." (The Telegraph.)

    Conclusions:

    1. You have failed to acknowledge the easily demonstrable fact that Messi 2012 was not only the record-breaking highest scoring forward of all time, but also the most prolific dribbler of all time, an ability without precedent in the history of the sport. Messi 2012 scored more goals than Ronaldo 2013 and at the same time completed more dribbling runs than Ronaldo 2008. Ronaldo's only argument in 2012 was that he won La Liga, which as far as arguments go, was more or less just as irrational as his 2016 BDO and his 2013 BDO.

    2. You have failed to acknowledge that in 2012, Chelsea won the Champions League, and Chelsea did not have a player who could challenge for the BDO award. Which left us with Messi--the highest scoring forward of all times, and also the most prolific dribbler of all time, all at the same time--against Ronaldo, a player who was not a prolific dribbler, and a player who scored less goals than Messi.

    3. You have failed to acknowledge the fact that Real Madrid won 2-0 when Ronaldo was the WMOTM, and it is far easier to score goals when your team performs to such a degree that it wins 2-0 at the same time that it created the clear-cut chances that Ronaldo failed to score (hence why Ronaldo was identified as the worst man of the match). Messi vs. Chelsea 2012 was not a game that Barcelona won by a 2-0 margin, nor was it a game where Messi failed to score clear-cut open play chances.

    4. You have failed to acknowledge the player ratings of the time, and how the player ratings of the time demonstrate that Messi was nowhere near as quiet nor as bad as the anti-Messi narrative goes.
     
  22. leadleader

    leadleader Member+

    Aug 19, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    #97 leadleader, Nov 11, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2017
    It obviously does deflate Ronaldo's argument for the BDO. For example: Suarez 2016 and Messi 2016 were not deflated but DESTROYED after their disappointing Champions League exit. Ronaldo 2016 was not even in the discussion for the BDO, but he won the BDO, because Suarez 2016 and Messi 2016 were DESTROYED by one bad game. One good game by Ronaldo 2016 and one bad game by Messi/Suarez 2016: The BDO was decided by one game vs. Wolfsburg 2016.

    Of course, when Ronaldo 2013 was the official WMOTM (Worst Man of the Match) in the Semi Final of the Champions League -- it did not destroyed Ronaldo's BDO aspirations, because the rules simply do not seem to apply to Ronaldo. Ronaldo can be the official WMOTM in the most important game of the 2013 calendar year, and he can do that the same exact calendar year where he doesn't win one single trophy, and he will still win the BDO on the basis of, "Ronaldo was the most consistent player throughout the season, and also Messi was injured and he missed some games, so Ronaldo really was the best player of 2013." And again: What happened in 2016 when Messi was CLEARLY the most consistent performer of the year?? Ronaldo won the BDO, because Ronaldo was good in ONE game vs. Wolfsburg 2016.

    Ronaldo 2013 did not win any title, did not have a big performance in the most important games of the season, failed to win the Copa del Rey Final (that Real Madrid was expected to win vs. the inferior Atletico Madrid), was the official WMOTM in the most important game of the season, was repeatedly outclassed by Lewandowski, was also outclassed by Messi in one of the La Liga clasicos, etc. Furthermore, Ronaldo 2016 was not even in the discussion for the BDO, both Suarez and Messi were widely considered as the better performers for most of that 2016 calendar year. Of course, Ronaldo scored 2 goals vs. Wolfsburg 2016, and so Ronaldo won the BDO after not even being a Top 3 player for most of the calendar year.

    You cannot reverse my argument against Messi, my argument DOES NOT apply to Messi - Messi has never actually won a BDO after doing what Ronaldo did in 2013, or what Ronaldo did in 2016, or what Ronaldo did in 2017. Messi in 2009 (the big trophies and the best statistics), 2010 (the best statistics and the better consistency, comprehensively better than any Inter player and/or any Spanish player), 2011 (the big trophies, the big performances, and the best statistics), 2012 (goal scoring record, and rightfully perceived as the best player in the world), and 2015 (the big trophies, the big moments, and the best statistics); every single one of Messi's BDO awards has come in a calendar year in which Messi has done great things individually. Messi has never won a BDO on the basis of 1 or 3 games, like Ronaldo did in 2016 and again in 2017. Messi has never won a BDO on the basis of not winning any titles, being the worst player on the pitch in the most important game of the season, being repeatedly outclassed by Lewandowski, etc. Oh and, Messi has also never won a BDO on the basis of LITERALLY ONE GAME against the 8th best club of the German league.
     
  23. Sir_Artur

    Sir_Artur Member

    Nov 21, 2014
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Country:
    Germany
    Strawman fallacy.
    I was not supposed to or expected to acknowledge anything written here. This thread or the topic we are discussing here has nothing to do with the offtopics written here.
    Messi did not deliver at the time his team needed him, compare it to your arguement against Ronaldo 2013. He was a flop in ECL Semi Final as your arguement goes, Messi 12 did worse than that: He missed a penalty in ECL semi final, he missed a chance to give his team a hope.

    Thus, all of the presentation @leadleader presented to support Messi is just offtopic, the point was not "Messi performed badly against Chelsea." The point was Messi missed the penalty that could have changed the history. It is far worse fate than Ronaldo's bad performance against Dortmund, at least he did not kill the chance with which his team could have advanced. Thus, If Ronaldo 13's flop against Dortmund is any reason to discredit his Ballandor, Messi's penalty miss against Chelsea is far more of a reason to discredit his ballandor.
    Now changing the goal posts.
    The point @leadleader raised against Ronaldo 13 was not a comparison against other ballandor winners, the point he raised to discredit Ronaldo's Ballandor 13 was his disappointing performance against Dortmund and as a counter arguement I presented one worse plight of Messi: Killing his team's chance to advance. How bad Ronaldo was in 2013 or 2008 does not have anything with the chance killed by Messi, it does not solve anything.
    Why would I? Were we supposed to do so? I do not understand, the team of the player leadleader is comparing against Ronaldo 13 did not win champions league, and then? What is the point?
    What does Chelsea having no nominee/top nominee for ballandor in that year have to do with Messi's flop or Dortmund not having top nominee for the ballandor in 2013 has tp dp with Ronaldo's flop?

    You raised Ronaldo's bad performance as an arguement against his Ballandor triumph, did not compare him for Ballandor with a player from the team he flopped against.
    Now you present reasons for why Messi should be granted Ballandor (or speaking from present time, why it was right to grant him the ballandor).

    Ronaldo 13 also has arguements for him to win when compared to his rivals:
    • Most number of goals in 2013 (like Messi had in 2012.) He had 20+ goal Margin against Messi and 40+ goals margin against Franck Ribery, another nominee from the dominant team of the year.
    • Kept his country's hopes alive: scored 3-4 goals when his country needed him the most.
    • Uefa Champions league goalscorer. Another Ballandor candidate Messi scored less than 10 and another top nominee Ribery scored less than 5.
    • After the next season started in September 2013, till December Ronaldo scored another 8 goals, more than his main rivals.
    • In 2013, Ronaldo had more goals and more assists than his 2 main rivals. btw, his main adversaries did not have something to boast of like Ronaldo's playing major role in his countries trip to World Cup.
    These are the ones from my memory, if I dig up many can be argued.

    In 2013, Messi, like Ronaldo did against Dortmund in 2013, was another disappointment against Bayern.
    The one who failed to acknowledge the main thing is @leadleader:

    Messi failed to deliver when his team was torturing the opposition: Chelsea. Playing badly when your team is winning is less of a humiliation than failing to deliver the deathly blow when your team is torturing the opposition.

    Some stats from Barcha - Chelsea 2-2 according to skysports.com:
    Shots: 16 - 7
    On target: 6 - 3
    Passing succes: 90.2 - 64.8
    Possession: 82.5 - 17.5. Almost 5 times.
    Number of passes: 745 - 145. 5 times more.

    Barcha was literally torturing the opposition Messi failed to score penalty against. Now, compare it to Real Madrid's performance against a team Ronaldo flopped against. Real Madrid - Dortmund 2-0
    Possession: 58 - 42
     
  24. Sir_Artur

    Sir_Artur Member

    Nov 21, 2014
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Country:
    Germany
    We could have said it is likely true if Messi never won the ballandor. NO matter how good he is, each year he had bad matches, a match that can be reason to not vote for him in Ballandor.
    Since Messi won Ballandors despite having bad matches in the years he won, I conclude this hypothesis is highly unlikely.
    Again, it could have been true if Ronaldo was winning every year. If Ronaldo was being given the trophy in the way leadleader describes, every year Ronaldo would have won it. Rules would simply not apply and Messi could not have won in 2011 or 2009 or any year.
    If rules do not apply to Ronaldo as Leadleader says, then why was he not awarded in 2009-2013?
    He did not win single trophy in 2010, there were matches he was the flop of the match in 2010. IF Ballandor was being granted him ignoring everything, why it was not the case in 2010 but it WAS the case in 2016?
    He won only 1 cup in 2011 which is Copa del rey, he was the worst player of the match in the el clascio match that took place on December 2011 (the match ended 1-3. Benzema scored in the first minute). Then why did he not win in 2010 or in 2011?

    If the ballandor was really as corrupted as Leadleader claims or if the ballandor was just picking Ronaldo ignoring everything wrong with him, would he have not won each year?

    Someone may say "but in 2010, 2011 Messi was better that is why Ronaldo was not awarded," then why was Messi not awarded in 2016 if Messi was really as CLEARLY the most consistent performer of the year??
    All can be said about Messi 12 except he won Copa Del rey.
    Well let us see.
    What is difference between Messi12 and 13?
    • Messi won Copa del rey and Ronaldo did not?
    • Messi12 was the top scorer of the year, so was Ronaldo 13.
    • Messi12 had near 30 goal gap between the 2nd most scorer of the year, ROnaldo13 had more than 20 goal difference between him and the 2nd top scorer of the year.
    • Ronaldo13 was the worst man of the match against Dortmund, I do not recall for sure but did Messi12 not have worst man of the match award? IIRC, he was selected the worst man of the match vs Celtic but I am not sure. I may be wrong,I am sure there will be times he failed like ROnaldo13 did.
    • In El-clasicos of 2012 Ronaldo scored more than Messi. So, he outperformed Messi12 like Lewa did to Ronaldo13?
    • AS far as I remember, Ronaldo13 had equal el-clasico goals with Messi13.
    • Like Ronaldo13's failure, Messi just wasted his team's penalty.
    • in 2012, Ronaldo saved the most important match of La-Liga which was do or die for both sides.
    • Messi12 was top scorer of the league and Champions league, Ronaldo13 was top scorer of the UCL only. Messi has a point here.
    • Ronaldo won the league in 2012, Messi12 did not. Messi won the league in 2013, Ronaldo13 did not.
    The difference is Messi12 has copa del ray and 2 top scorer award vs zero team trophy of Ronaldo13 and 1 individual top scorer award of Ronaldo13. Messi12 had a disgrace, Ronaldo13 had a prouded part: His performance against Switzerland or whereever that country was, I do not recall.

    IN 2013, Ribery, the man whose team dominated every competition, was too behind individually. Messi was behind Ronaldo in goals and assists, Ronaldo was outshining Messi in the second half of the year (September - December).

    Now, how can we say 1 is justified and the other is irrational?
    Oh, in 2016 Ronaldo's team won the champions league,ROnaldo was the top scorer. He was the second top scorer of La Liga,behind Suarez and ahead of Messi.
    In 2017 his team won La liga, UCL, he was the 3rd top scorer in La Liga and he was the top scorer of champions league.

    Do that achievements look like the ones achieved in 1-3 or in minor part of the year?

    Compare them to Messi15, his team won La liga and the champions league and La liga. Messi was the top scorer of Champions league and Ronaldo was the top scorer of La liga.
    Calendar year, great. Ronaldo13 had a great calendar year in overall even though he had failures here or there or he did not have a trophy with him.
    As I repeated on my previous posts, all such accusations can be directed to Messi11, Messi10 and Messi12. If interested, interested parties may start to read from the post#80.
    by the way, the team Messi missed a penalty against in the most crucial match of Barcha in which Barcha was literally torturing the opposition was 7th placed team in English premier league? or 6th or maybe 8th, I do not recall but somewhere between 6-8.
     
  25. Sir_Artur

    Sir_Artur Member

    Nov 21, 2014
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Country:
    Germany
    oh my god, I now realised the rest of this writing went unposted.

    I have internet connection problems, my internet was disconnected. I will update this post later.

    @comme, or other moderators, is it possible for you to add there:

    "This post is unfinished. Not intentionally posted as it is." PLease.

    My internet got disconnected, I went on to write, when I pressed post I needed to re-login, then I do not know what went wrong but it was posted as it is now.
     

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