Who Is The 3rd Best Brazilian Footballer in History,after Pelé and Garrincha?

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by R9magia, Nov 6, 2005.

  1. Jackson1986

    Jackson1986 New Member

    Nov 15, 2005
    China
    who is the judge?where is Ribeiro Adriano ?


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  2. guado

    guado Member+

    Jun 30, 2004
    ocotengo miedo
    Club:
    Inverness Caledonian Thistle
    Nat'l Team:
    Indonesia
    you can not seriously think he is ALREADY third best. this is for the most elite of the elite of brazilian football of ALL TIME. adriano and ronaldinho are not there yet.
     
  3. Rakim_22

    Rakim_22 Member

    Manchester United
    Netherlands
    Sep 6, 2004
    Florida
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Exactly. Adriano is nowhere near the top 3 best of all-time. No disrespecting the man but he hasn't done enough to warrant the claim of 3rd best all-time. Anyways I would rate Ronaldinho higher than him.
     
  4. Jackson1986

    Jackson1986 New Member

    Nov 15, 2005
    China
    o,so I think Ronalod is a good selection if he kick well in his last years or help Brazil win another WC.

    [​IMG]
     
  5. R9magia

    R9magia New Member

    Aug 12, 2005
    I beg you,please watch Pelé Eterno. I know how you feel,the footage normally played of Pelé is the same repetitive things over,and over again. I was on the same level of thinking you are,although I understood what Pelé represented in the game,you are left feeling a bit suspect at such a claim of him being the greatest of all-time.

    To create the movie Pelé Eterno,the producers searched all over the world for footage of Pelé throughout this career,the results are mind boggling. I don't know where you live but the dvd will be available in almost all parts of the world,I suggest you buy it when it becomes available.

    One interesting fact is that an incredible number of people like me and you who were somewhat suspect of Pelé being the greatest of all-time,after watching this movie people had no doubts,i think that says a lot. Even Argentine people who gave there thoughts here in bigsoccer.com confessed Pelé was better then Maradona after watching this movie,imagine that.

    It really is incredible,if you are a fan of football it is a must have. To see Pelé in tense moments like in La Bombonera facing Boca Juniors in the 1963 Libertadores finals,a whole stadium against him,people expecting him to fail and he delivered the win for Santos. All I can say is that the footage normally shown of Pelé is NOTHING compared to the things he has done. For example,I have never seen a player with so much ease to nutmeg his opponent,now a days you see Ronaldinho or C.Ronaldo nutmeg a player and it looks spectacular,Pelé would line people up for a nutmeg,and proceed to nutmeg one player behind another,all of this while they wildly attempted to foul him.Words cannot describe it,all I can say is that you would be doing yourself a disservice as a fan of football to not watch this movie at least once. It came out in Brasil and I'm not sure exactly what day it will be out in the rest of the world,but what I am sure of is that this movie shows Pelé throughout his career and gives people enough of him to then be able to make fair decision of what you thought of him as a player,because the fact is most people have not seen much of Pelé,but thanks to this movie seeing all the footage most people never thought existed is possible.
     
  6. dante7

    dante7 New Member

    Nov 4, 2005
    bournemouth
    quick question...i heard awhile ago that there were plans to make a "pele eterno" style documentary on garrincha,it would be remarkable to see early footage of him at his best playing for botafogo.from what i understand his performances in the week to week football of the carioca were quite unbelievable.is there any truth to this ? cheers fellas
     
  7. R9magia

    R9magia New Member

    Aug 12, 2005
    I did hear something about that,Garrincha's Swedish son was in Brasil to film parts of the documentary.I believe it will be out around the 2006 WC but I don't have any other info on it.

    There is no doubt Garrincha was unbelievable,just a different style then Pelé.Pelé was looked at as a complete football who could play various positions and do various different things to lead a football team on the field,Garrincha was viewed basically as a show man the "Alegria do Povo" (Joy of the people).Personally I am very much looking forward to seeing this documentary,I have one called "Alegria do Povo" but it doesn't have nearly enough footage.
     
  8. il phenomeno

    il phenomeno New Member

    Nov 18, 2005
    istanbul
    there is ronaldo's career.and he still play footbal...in 2006 if he score 2 goal,he will be the most scorers in world cups......

    For many, he is the best forward in the world. Explosive power, Brazilian fantasy and scoring instinct are joined together in Ronaldo, who came to Real Madrid after leading Brazil to the conquer their fifth World Cup. He was crucial for their gaining of the Intercontinental Cup and days later he was awarded with the Golden Ball and FIFA World Player. Another star among a constellation of stars, an insurance policy for goals for his team.

    His performances in Sao Cristovao and Cruzeiro took him at a very young age to Europe, more precisely to Holland, to PSV Eindhoven. He was proclaimed maximum scorer of the League (30 goals in 33 games during the season 1994-95). His capacity and his play caused a sensation and Barcelona went for him. He came to Spain in 1996-97 and in his first season he was also the highest scorer of the championship: 34 goals in 37 games. People still remember that goal against Compostela. He stayed only one year at CampNou, the time that Inter took to sign him up. His start in the Serie A was meteoric: he scored 25 goals and he was chosen the best foreign player and the best player of Calcio. Injuries to his knee stopped him almost during two seasons, and there were people who even doubted about whether he would be able to play football again. Nevertheless “the Phenomenon” cleared away any doubt in the 2001-02 season. He scored seven goals in ten games of League with Inter and in the World Championship of Korea and Japan he proved that he was the same star: he was the highest scorer of the championship (8 goals) and he was a great leader that took Brazil to the fifth Cup (he scored the two goals of his team in the final). Ronaldo is back. He is the same player who was once elected FIFA World Player two years in a row (1996 and 1997) and that achieved the Golden Ball (1997). And now he is in Real Madrid. And he wants to get the crown for the best “9” in the world.


    1 Liga: 2002-03
    1 Copa del Rey: 1996-97
    2 Spanish Supercups: 1996 / 2003
    1 Cup of Holland: 1995-96
    1 Cup Winner´s Cup: 1996-97
    1 UEFA Cup: 1997-98
    1 Intercontinental Cup: 2002
    2 World Cups: 1994 / 2002
    2 America Cups: 1997 / 1999
    1 Confederations Cup: 1997
    3 times top scorer: 1994-95 / 1996-97 / 2002 (World Cup)
    2 Golden Balls: 1997 / 2002
    1 Bronze Ball: 1998
    3 FIFA World Player: 1996 / 1997 / 2002
    1 Silver FIFA World Player: 1998
    1 Bronze FIFA World Player: 2003
    1 Golden Shoe: 1996-97
    2 Golden Onze: 1997 / 2002
    2 Bravo Trophy: 1997 / 1998


    1994
    World Cup
    1995
    Top scorer of the Eredivisie

    1996
    Spanish Supercup
    FIFA World Player

    1997
    Copa del Rey
    Cup Winner´s Cup
    America Cup
    Confederations Cup
    Liga top scorer
    Golden Ball
    FIFA World Player
    Bravo Trophy
    1998
    UEFA Cup
    Bronze Ball
    Silver FIFA World Player
    Bravo Trophee
    1999
    America Cup
    2002
    World Cup
    World Cup top scorer
    Move from Internazionale Milan to Madrid
    October 6th, début. Real Madrid 5 - 2 Alavés (scored two goals)
    Intercontinental Cup
    FIFA World Player
    Golden Ball
    Golden Onze
    2003
    Liga
    Spanish Superzcup
    Bronze FIFA World Player
     
  9. Duck Manson

    Duck Manson Member+

    Feb 8, 2005
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    what a bunch of dumbasses. no league til 1971. shiit, england almost had a league in 1871!
    i dont need to. you have absolutely nothing to back up your claim that pele was in better physically shape then the average joe on a 2nd div team in england is today, let alone the top players.
     
  10. Duck Manson

    Duck Manson Member+

    Feb 8, 2005
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    no he couldnt.
    no he didnt.

    prove me wrong
     
  11. dante7

    dante7 New Member

    Nov 4, 2005
    bournemouth
    thanks for your reply,much appreciated.
     
  12. Duck Manson

    Duck Manson Member+

    Feb 8, 2005
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    best winger ever in my opinion. hes the Elgin Baylor of football.
     
  13. Rakim_22

    Rakim_22 Member

    Manchester United
    Netherlands
    Sep 6, 2004
    Florida
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Thats a pretty sketchy analogy. :confused:
     
  14. R9magia

    R9magia New Member

    Aug 12, 2005
    To All,

    Please do not argue about Pelé with Duck Manson,he has a long history of purposely instigating arguments about O Rei,yet has shown on various occasions that his knowledge of Pelé,and the Brasilian league is very limited. He has also proved through many comments and analysis of Pelé as a footballer that he has not seen enough of Pelé in action,my only guess is that he has seen a handful of Pelé highlights in World Cups. Duck also likes to claim a lot of Pelé's success is due to the fact he played with the greatest winger,yet his lack of knowledge of the Brasilian league doesn't allow him to realize when Pele's Santos and Garrincha's Botafogo (which was the base of the Seleção in those days) squared off,Santos usually came out on top,as evidenced by Santos having 5 Taça Brasil's and Botafogo having none.

    Another one of Duck's comments from a while back that showed not only his lack of knowledge of the history of Brasilian football,but of world football in general was when he said "Pelé scored 1000 goals in a brazilian league where im sure no one cared a lick about defending".Clearly here,to any normal person reading,he is implying Pelé faced defenders who didn't care "a lick about defending" in the Brasilian league,that is one of the reasons why he racked up so many goals.However when Duck was confronted with the fact that comparing the goals per game ratios in the Brasil league of the time and those of the Spanish,Italian,and Portuguese leagues,which showed Pelé had no advantages over his peers (from Distefano to Eusebio),Duck quickly switched his argument to "more goals were scored back then" which is something blatantly obvious that everybody is aware of.

    Another perfect example of Duck's limited knowledge of Pelé as a footballer is that in a list Duck Manson created,his opinion of the top 10 players of all-time had Roberto Baggio and Ronaldo just to name a few over Pelé and Pelé was not even in the top 10 of his list. I think that says more then enough as to Duck's limited exposure to Pelé as a footballer.

    My point to all of you but specially to girco is,to argue with him about Pelé,is equal to wasting your time,he refuses to educate himself on this subject and will continue to make inaccurate statements about Pelé and the Brasilian league until he decides to educate himself on these subjects.
     
  15. climax

    climax New Member

    Jul 13, 2004
    Kolkata, Montreal
    The masonic Duck is blind and clueless!
     
  16. girco

    girco New Member

    Jul 3, 2005
    São Paulo
    England, that little island nation?
    Did you know Brasil is over 30 times larger than the whole United Kingdom?
    Did you know Brasil spans over a distance of over 4,000km north-south and east-west?
    It would have been impractical to have a national league 50 years ago. That's why firstly state leagues were developed, then interstate tournaments by the 50's, until the first nation wide league was established in the 70's
    A little geography knowledge doesn't hurt, does it?
    Oh, but I do have, and I so can prove it :)

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Those are screenshots from Pelé's goal vs Italy, WC70 final, first when he is about to jump and second at the full extension of his leap
    I displaced the second image as to obtain a common reference for both - Italy's woodwork
    As you can see, I marked in both pics the bottom (476,324) and upper corner (476,188) coordinates of the right post. Since they are approximately in the same position, there is nearly no zoom between the two snapshots, so the calculation made below holds true. Also, as the camera is a lot farther from both Pelé and the woodwork than Pelé is farther from the woodwork, it is reasonable to assume they (Pelé and the woodwork ) are nearly on the same plane
    Bottom of right post = (476,324)
    Upper corner of right post = (476,188)
    Height of right post = 324-188 = 136
    Also marked are Pelé's feet when he's on the ground and his head when he's up high
    Pelé's feet = (353,414)
    Pelé's head = (393,265)
    Head-feet distance = 414-265 = 149
    Knowing that the woodwork must measure 244cm from the ground to the inner side of the crossbar, and that Pelé is 172cm tall, it is very easy to find out how tall he jumped:
    244/136=(172+h)/149
    h = 95cm (37.5in)
    Now it is kind of hard to find data on vertical leap for professional football players, but i found this:
    http://faccioni.com/Reviews/VJperformance.htm

    Also I find out that top college defensive backs (players whose main job is basically to run and jump) in 2004 had a vertical leap in the range of 35 to 41 in
    http://sports.espn.go.com/nfldraft/...d=1781195columnist=pasquarelli_len&id=1781195

    And if you pay attention well enough, you'll see that Pelé is jumping to the right and slightly backwards, as to reach the ball. Anyone who has ever played basketball knows that jumping like that is a lot harder than jumping upright
    So we got a player who was 30 years old back in 1970, with a vertical leap of 95cm, while jumping at a tilt
    That's comparable to elite volleyball players back in 1988, and college american football players in 2004
    So it is fair to conclude that your comparison between Pelé and today's 2nd division average joe is pretty much flawed
     
  17. Koena

    Koena New Member

    Jul 19, 2005
    True. There are these deviants like Duck Mason everywhere. They are ofcourse a small minority and it is best to just ignore them.
     
  18. R9magia

    R9magia New Member

    Aug 12, 2005

    As people like to say......Duck's been owned with this post.

    Of course he will come back and make posts claiming this proves nothing and he's not convinced (what a surprise) :rolleyes: As I said Girco,nice job,but you are wasting your time...Its similar to a teacher trying to educate a student who refuses to make an effort to pay attention in class and learn...its pointless for the teacher so they give up on that student and move on to teaching those that want to learn.
     
  19. Duck Manson

    Duck Manson Member+

    Feb 8, 2005
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    really? neat. does that mean theyre better at everything then? is the united states of america bigger then brazil?
     
  20. Duck Manson

    Duck Manson Member+

    Feb 8, 2005
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    hmm you do realise that football is a team sport, no?
    where did you show that exactly? my point was that they scored more goals back then. i think i proved that. you were wrong.
    did i say that i excluded pele to create a debate? obviously pele is among the top ten. so you cant use that one as an argument.
    atleast i have an open mind. no matter if you agree with anything ive ever said, you wouldnt admit it.
     
  21. Duck Manson

    Duck Manson Member+

    Feb 8, 2005
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    yet your precious pele played tons of friendlies in europe. is traveling from brazil to europe easier then traveling within brazil?
    thats the dumbest thing ive ever seen. you made those cute little Xes yourself?
    not saying he couldnt jump. but i have yet to see proof of what you said. youre getting nowhere with those idiot charts of yours. and lets see where pele ran 100 meters in 10.5 seconds.
     
  22. Duck Manson

    Duck Manson Member+

    Feb 8, 2005
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    actually the majority of soccer fans regard Maradona as the greatest ever. so youre the minority here buddy.
     
  23. Teso Dos Bichos

    Teso Dos Bichos Red Card

    Sep 2, 2004
    Purged by RvN
    What the fúck has happened to this thread? [​IMG]
     
  24. Duck Manson

    Duck Manson Member+

    Feb 8, 2005
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    ill take the blame for ruining this thread. but i just cant stand when people talk like pele was some kinda superhuman. "he was lightyears ahead of his peers physically" give me a break. id easily accept hes the best ever if people would just get ahold of themselves and stop this nonsense already.
     
  25. Teso Dos Bichos

    Teso Dos Bichos Red Card

    Sep 2, 2004
    Purged by RvN
    I don't blame you. I blame the usual fan boys for completely spitting their dummy, as usual. There is a simple fact that you lot need to learn to accept. Pele is not, was not and never will be the God you claim him to be. This isn't the fúcking Matrix people... :rolleyes:
     

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