That stat argument is deceptive. Look at the quality of opposition. Ofcourse the barca team without Messi would score and win against the likes of Speitag and Almeria.
Of course, the opposition is weak, regardless of whether they are playing or not. The whole La Liga is cannon-fodder for the great Barca and Real exploits. And if they do not cooperate, the ref will let them know (just look at the insanely high number of red cards; for stupid things like talking). As I said against Boca Juniors fan 'that is not entirely true'. I list the good team they played against with Messi neither in the starting line-up used as a substitute. In terms of La Liga, a 'good team' is a one that ended in the upper half of the table. 08/09 Barcelona - Mallorca 3:1 Sevilla - Barcelona 0:4 Mallorca - Barcelona 1:2 Barcelona - Wisla Krakow 4:0 09/10 Barcelona - Villarreal 1:1 Bilbao - Barcelona 1:2 Barcelona - Internazionale 2:0 10/11 Bilbao - Barcelona 1:3
But isn't that only 7 out of 24 (excluding Wisla, I mean ... please!) Looks like you kind of proved my (and Phil's) point.
Brazil won WC62 without Pele, both the Brazil of that era and the current Barca are dominant teams that will beat the opponent even without their best player. But that does not change that Pele was Brazil's best player during those times, likewise Messi is Barca's best nowadays. Becausse Gomez scores a higher percentage of goals for Bayern, it doesn't make him an equal player to Messi, which you seem to imply As Dr. No mentioned, Messi scored at a torrid pace when Iniesta was out during 09, so he is not exclusively dependent in the two for goals.
If you want it that way then arguments concerning the fielding of Xavi/Iniesta are worthless in its entirety. I wasn't the one who came with this line of argumentation.
For Xavi, yes. Not for Iniesta. He had a significant injury in 2010 ruling him out of a chunk of games, not just easier or meaningless games. But basically that was my point in the first place: you can't use this to gauge Messi's importance because it is not a random sample of games that he missed.
Pelé wasn't at his best in 1962 and Brazil wasn't as good as in 1958 or 1970. Besides, they weren't also that convincing. No, not at all. First of all: Iniesta is less important than Xavi. Secondly, it is known from former great teams that it is doable for short stints to miss such a role player. Iniesta was out from round 10 to round 16. The results in which Messi played are: Barcelona - Valladolid 6:0 Huelva - Barcelona 0:2 - 1 goal Messi 51th minute (assisted by Xavi, free kick) Sevilla - Barcelona 0:3 - 2 goals Messi 78th minute, 90th minute (1 assisted by Xavi, the other one by Hleb) Barcelona - Valencia 4:0 Barcelona - Real Madrid 2:0 - 1 goal Messi, 90th minute (assisted by Henry) Villarreal - Barcelona 1:2 Iniesta was out in round 24 and 25 Barcelona - Espanyol 1:2 Atletico Madrid - Barcelona 4:3 - 1 goal Messi 30th minute (entirely created by himself) So without Iniesta he scored 5 goals in 8 games, which was a bit lower than his overall league record. Record: 6 wins, 2 losses, 23 goals for, 7 goals against. Again: a share of 5 goals in a total 23 team-goals is not very much. Also considering his role.
This is such big load of crap!!!!!! Go search and see how many goals Barca have scored since Guardiola is in charge and see how many goals/assists Messi has in those same seasons. Leo has the biggest involvement in Barca's goals by a long margin. Yeah, Barca may win some games without him, but a guarantee you that they don't win 13 out of 16 trophies under Pep without Messi in the team. What is the point in all this anyway? Both Messi and CR7 are the best goalscorers in recent years. The difference is that Messi also scores and makes the difference in big games.
It is random because Iniesta missed a segment of games to which nobody had control over. So it is a better sample to use to gauge Iniesta's importance, unlike with Messi's missed games which Guardiola carefully selects based on quality of opponent and importance of the game.
La Liga results its a weak argument,lol. Barca and Madrid are WAY above the rest of the teams. Hell I bet they could beat Valencia (3rd best team) with merely subs. You know what happened when Iniesta didn't play in a much more competitive game? 1-3 Point is youre descrediting Barcelona's individualities way too much. Of course there are some players that can be replaced because they are not as important, but there are some irreplacable players. (Xavi, Iniesta, Messi) That no one in the world would fill their boots, specially when there is pressure. One could argue Puyol and Busquets are too.
Yes, it is random but an insignificant amount of games anyway. Yes, I agree that those games are selected carefully (although Messi was sometimes injured) but they also played against good opponents without him. And as I said before: the results of Barcelona without any of the three on the pitch is an indication for their importance. Those games are maybe unimportant (the league title was already secured) but it is still an indication.
I'm not discrediting their qualities. On the contrary. I think it is the combination of those three that defines their strength. They can handle it when one of them is absent but it already becomes problematic when two of them are missing. Furthermore, I totally agree with the 'la Liga is weak' argument https://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showpost.php?p=24884262&postcount=98 But when I put that forward in the discussion to set the goal-scoring record in perspective (and added to the fact that C. Ronaldo has an equal record in a less good team) I received numerous insults from Barca-fanboys.
this "argument" is still going? REALLLY?? wow...lol ronaldo is not even close to messi and I am truly beginning to wonder what the pro-ronaldo people are seeing when they watch these 2 play...
We're seeing that Messi is still in a blue and red shirt. I see Puckvanheel and Zah Zah have been keeping this thread from a massive Messi massage in my absence. Kudos fellas....I realize how tiring it can be arguing Messi is not a descendent of Jesus.
STFU! Another El Clasico, another failure for CR7, another Messi proof of superiority. And don't even try to come up with excuses this time. Real M were flying, in better form, all players performing up until the clasico, early game lead, etc. Go back to hiding in your hole until the next one in the Spring, when CR7 will stink up again.
was quite funny how all the fans on the madrid board were turning against him during the game that was his big opportunity to beat messi, but he flopped basically in every crucial moment/chance he had
Ronaldo flops sometimes because he has to do more. I again remind the players with Messi plays with: Puyol (for some a top 50 centre-back of all-time), Xavi (top 15 central midfielder all-time), David Villa (top 50 striker all-time?), Dani Alves (top 30 right back all-time), Andres Iniesta ("better than Laudrup") And with who do Ronaldo plays with? With Casillas (for some a top 50 goalkeeper of all-time, even top 20) and Kaka. No other player in his team is a candidate for an all-time list, even Xabi Alonso is dismissed by most list-makers. Ricardo Carvalho has also a hard time.
Ronaldo has to do more? Ronaldo provides almost zero defense cover while Messi does, Ronaldo does not assist as much as Messi. Either way none of those things you said have anything to do with the player's individual performances consistently over many clasicos. Ronaldo also plays with DiMaria, currently at the top of assists in La Liga, Ozil the great German hope, Benzema who finally decided to perform, Pepe who is overrated imo and cost them 30m but is still loved by Madrid fans, etc... Are you really trying to say Ronaldo's supporting cast isn't great? Look at their fans' reaction after the game. The were specifically mad at him for not performing. His cast is irrelevant to him sucking.
I find it hilarious that people talk like the Madrid team is made up of scrubs. Both teams are have the best squads in the world. And no , even comparing it to Barcelona the difference is not that great.
Yes? http://www.footytube.com/video/inter-milan-barcelona-apr20-40298 (look from 7:24 onwards, and what Messi does defensively when he loses the ball, and what the effect is of his 'work-rate') Ronaldo does not assist as much because Real Madrid plays from the break. They use space and the transition from the middle to score goals. It is therefore also not surprising that a midfielder topped the assist-ladder; they use the counter-attack from the middle. Last season: Barcelona: Messi - 18 assists Dani Alves (his partner) - 15 assists Xavi - 7 assists Pedro - 7 assists Villa - 5 assists Iniesta - 3 assists Busquets - 3 assists Keita - 2 assists Bojan - 2 assists Pique - 1 assist Maxwell - 1 assist Total: 64 assists Real Madrid: Ozil - 17 assists Ronaldo - 11 assists Di Maria - 11 assists Xabi Alonso - 6 assists Benzema - 5 assists Marcelo - 4 assists Ramos - 2 assists L. Diarra - 2 assists Pepe - 1 assist Arbeloa - 1 assist Khedira - 1 assist Total: 61 assists Source: whoscored That is what you -again- makes of it, as if only clasicos count. Matter of the fact is that Ronaldo is utilised badly and wasn't worse than his team-mates in attack. It wasn't the case that Benzema or Ozil played way better. Don't put words in my mouth. I never said that. I said that his 'supporting-cast' isn't as great/legendary as the one of Messi. I still stand by that. Ozil isn't allowed to stand in the shadow of Xavi, come on. They were mad because he wasted chances.
Oh, that argument now......ok. Ronaldo flops because he tries to do more, but he can't. Great players know exactly how much is necessary of them to do, like Messi. Ronaldo tries, Messi plays. The rest of the players on both teams are some of the best, if not the best, available in the modern game. No excuses! Real M are in better form heading into these clasicos lately. In the last one, they were playing at home and scored within the first minute of the game. What more do they or their fans want to go their way, so Ronaldo can outshine Messi???!!! Ronaldo had two great chances to claim the glory, but he flopped as he missed them. Real M fans have every right to blame him - a player of his caliber should put them away. Messi had one chance (before Ronaldo's), which was saved barely by Casillas. And Leo created Sanchez's goal out of nothing - a sign of a great player. I don't know how accurate these assist numbers are, but looking at them it is easy to see how and why Messi is superior to Ronaldo. He gets more assists than the two main playmakers of Barca combined. This is how big he is! All this talk about how "Real M plays on the break" and "Ronaldo is badly utilized" is just crap. Playing on the break is what should be helping Ronaldo due to the fact that it gives him more space, which he needs compared to Messi, and it plays exactly to his strengths i.e. his speed. How is Ronaldo badly utilized when he plays exactly where should be playing as wide forward moving in field? You know, Messi started his career in the same role, yet he was moved into the False 9 role and even sometimes as AM and he plays just as great and always better than Ronaldo. So what gives? Bottom line: Messi is the best player, he is better than Ronaldo, hands down!!!! Ronaldo is still a very very good player, but a 34-year old Puyol and an adventurous wingback like Alves put him in their back pocket.
Messi has constantly more fouls than any other Barca foward preceisly because he bothers to go back. No, Ronaldo does not assist as much as Messi because he is unable to play the through ball and chipped passes as well as Messi does. So yes thanks for proving it to us. Aside from being the top scorer on his team Messi assists plenty. Wasn't your post about clasicos and Casillas? Am I missing something? Ronaldo was used badly yet he still is the top scorer. You're basically saying Mourinho is an idiot. Please. We're talking about now not in all time perspective. Ronaldo has the biggest assister in the league, almost twice as much as Messi, on his team. Plus he has the best German playmaker in a while. You made excuses. Having players like that don't warrant excuses. They were mad because he sucked yet again against Barca. It's not like it was the first time.
Then I want to see stats. Also very strange that he is never sent off isn't it? Or is La Liga one corrupt bogus crap hole? Ronaldo in his Manchester United time was able to do it as well as Messi does now + his numerous good crosses. Ah, the goalscoring argument comes to the surface again... Haven't you noticed that his right side partner Dani Alves had only two assists less? No Yes Maybe because Ronaldo and/or Madrid plays differently against Barcelona than against Sevilla or Valencia? I'm not gonna repeat myself.