No, the question is: Is there bias towards MLS players? The answer is, for many people, "yes". You don't need a conspiracy, you don't need Garber/Bradley to select the rosters, for there to be a bias. I'm starting to think you're not actually able to understand abstractions. You're reading words. You see that there's a sentence made up of a string of words... and its meaning flies right over your head.
It comes down to the quality and quantity of information. In 2019, we definitely can get videos of the Bundesliga. And with a little work, we can probably get tapes of the reserve teams as well. Do we have dedicated scouts who are reviewing those tapes every week? Let's be kind and say, yes, we do - we've got someone reviewing gametapes for US players based in Bundesliga and submitting reports weekly. But compare that to the MLS. We definitely have scouts watching the gametape every week - and the coaches are probably watching the games too. We likely have scouts sitting live at the matches - and maybe sitting in on training sessions. When the coaches were in the MLS, they probably watched tape and gameplanned against players every week. They've got friends on the clubs' coaching staffs who can give them direct inside scoops on the players' training. They've got the players' agents on speed-dial; they regularly run into the players and coaches and agents at social functions and events. They read analysis and opinions from MLS journalists - and are friends with those same journalists, so they can share rumors and inside info. They would know everything about the players from when they were teen hotshots on the youth squad. Maybe they coached the player themselves in a youth squad or a friendly. Maybe they met the players' parents. Maybe they share the same agent. And, being from the same social circles, they might even be related. Finding out quality information from the Bundesliga or the SPL or the Championship is not impossible - it may not even be particularly difficult. But it does requires active effort - the coaches and scouts need to decide put in the time to obtain the tape and review it and read the reports. On the other hand, for MLS - they don't even need to try. They will be overwhelmed with the quantity and richness of the information simply by being there. They couldn't avoid hearing about the latest MLS player developments even if they tried. Remember Danny Williams saying he got an email from Bruce Arena saying that he was sure Danny was good, but he just hadn't gotten around to watching Danny's tape yet? I doubt Arena ever had to say the same about any player in MLS. And this develops a subconscious bias. Simply put, the sheer amount and detail of the information about MLS players that they get exposed to as a daily practice will affect their perceptions. Some schlubb who happens to be surrounded by superior talent gets on a lucky streak, then they will hear about it from everyone, constantly - "Man, it feels like I've been hearing a lot about this Schlubb lately - he must be good - I'll ask his position coach about it tomorrow when we're both at that barbecue." Meanwhile, some poor sucker on a bad SPL team gets a single paragraph write-up for another solid game from a scout - "Huh. This Sucker fellow seems all right, but I can't say I've heard much about him. I don't really know the SPL all that well, and nobody on the staff really does. I think my agent might know a guy who was an assistant who worked with a physio on a different SPL team - I'll see if I can get his email address. This Sucker's team loses a lot, though - maybe he's just not a talisman. Not like Schlubb is, I can tell you - did you see yesterday how skillfully he deflected that throw-in with his ass and indirectly sprung his teammate for an open-netter in a 7-1 blowout? You can't teach that. Tell ya what, our SPL video scout seems to like this Sucker - maybe I'll get around to watching his gametape sometime. Not now though - I've got a barbecue to get to, sponsored by Continental Tires, official tires of the MLS." Is this arrangement bad? It doesn't have to be - familiarity and networking are very beneficial to teamwork and communication. But the USSF is simply too limited and too married to these informal, internal connections. We've already seen how it limits our thinking, makes the organization very slow to react and change - and yeah, it leads us to put sub-par products out there, because we're restricting our own perspectives. The solution would be more diversity in terms of the background of people involved with USSF. People with diverse experiences lend new perspectives and enable improvement - but also, it expands our reach globally, establishing lines of communication and pipelines elsewhere. Come on - let's get in staff who have those personal connections to Bundesliga and Championship and SPL, so they can call up their old mates to ask for insider scouting reports and all the details we simply can't get now. Otherwise, it's just the same people at MLS and SUM and USSF all incestuously networking with each other.
I struggle with bs I get the idea you are going for with the idea of a 'bias' there is no evidence or proof and the actual evidence and proof disproves the idea but hey its just an idea....is there a 'bias' (wink wink). I fully expect the bias to be in full effect this summer...an mls squad will be named for the gold cup and it will be announced (behind the scene of course) that anyone not in mls by next season won't be a part of wcq and the wc if they make it. you aren't thinking abstractly you are going full tinfoil hat. whats next...did sum want the us to miss the world cup lol.
I struggle with you. But it's not worth it. Think whatever you want, I don't really care enough to keep presenting simple ideas to you.
Or, and I am not saying this is true, "If you keep screaming something over and over people will believe it is true even if it is not," or, "Nothing has to be true, but everything has to sound true." Truth is like beauty, those observing are the only judges. Also, "You can 'prove' anything if you choose your 'facts' correctly." I hope this is taken the way it is intended, to provide a bit of perspective to a lot of arguments base on what comes down to opinion.
good idea but that doesn't apply to the situation when you are asking if something is happening or its not. even in this case when the person is trying to say its not a factual situation but just an idea without real facts to justify the facts not only not proving the idea but disproving it clearly. it can best be compared to the 'flat earth theory' 1)all facts/science prove the earth isn't flat so its simple the earth isn't flat but the gunner flat earth group counters with 1)its an abstract thought so facts don't apply 2)just asking if its possible...even though its not possible because its been proven otherwise...why can't we pretend its possible this all isn't down to opinion its down to facts and in situations like this it should be about facts and outlawing facts works great for flat earthers and donald trump but shouldn't work here.
I gave you facts repeatedly and you countered with 'its an abstract thought not meant to be proven by facts' lol
Doesn't this sort of "bias" happen all over the world though? It'll be interesting to see if Jadon Sancho gets called into the English National Team while he plays for Dortmund. Hell JCO wouldn't call Carlos Vela into the Mexican side, and Vela is clearly their most talented player. JCO had a heavy bias towards LigaMX players. I realize that the big leagues overseas are considerably better than MLS. My point is that coaches will pick players that they know and are comfortable with. Arena was most comfortable with MLS players because he knew, coached many of them, and scouted them. They were also close by (relatively). Klinsman was most comfortable with the players overseas, most notably in Germany. He's obviously spent a lot of time in Germany and Europe in general and has lots of contacts and relationships with coaches overseas. Bradley seemed to have a good mix of MLS and overseas based players.. Triple G's first few camps have skewed heavy on MLS players, which is to be expected as he's more familiar with those players currently. Also we need to remember that Earnie Stewart is very familiar with MLS as well, having helped build the Union's academy the past 2+ years.
And how did that familiarity work out for Brucie? For all of klinsys faults, which were many, his reliance on euros worked. I'd argue Jones, our best player for years, would have been ignored by arena and potentially gb. So the past few cycles have shown us a guy picking more euro based players worked. A guy picking MLS players led the biggest us soccer failure in history. Gb's start looks a lot like Bruce. Hasn't Sancho been part of the squad for the last few euro qualifiers? Not sure there is even a question at this point he's a first teamer, even with England's load of young talent.
the point is everyone has a bias its human nature no matter what anyone says the question is if there are literally meetings about picking mls players over euro players regardless of anything else
So in other words (and correct me if I'm wrong) - Bias exists in people. So because of that, we should be ok picking inferior players because everyone that comes from MLS will do it? Hasn't bias existed in the workforce for the last 6 decades keeping women and people of color from advancing? Guess that exists and it's fine, as long as nobody sits around actively discussing it?
Bruce made the quarters in 2002............ Bradley made the round of 16 in 2010, and also made the final of the confed cup in 2009...... Klinsmann made the rd of 16 in 2014.......he also got off to a HORRIBLE start in the hex in 2017..... Bruce then replaced JK, and brought in players who were reliable for him before and unfortunately they didn't perform. It certainly doesn't help the USSF's cause that they have a "lost generation" of talent that just didn't pan out on the international level either. There's a gap currently between the Bradley/Altidore era and the new up and coming youngsters. The fact that MLS is improving at a rapid clip not only in terms of the league's overall quality but equally if not more importantly the improvement in youth development will serve to help the USMNT going forward. We should also keep in mind that with MLS' season now ending at the beginning of October, and the playoffs ending the first week of November this will give Triple G and his staff more time to scout over seas during the European seasons. Berhalter has only been at his post for a few months. Let's give him some time before branding him with a MLS bias. Jadon Sancho has made a grand total of 4 appearances with the senior English NT.
Let’s put aside the facts that it was Vela that wouldn’t commit to the Mex team rather the other way around and that ligamMX is a much better league than MLS (aaarggggh). The benefit of being familiar with MLS is that coaches should have a pretty good idea of the small minority of players who can step up to a higher level. They should be more discriminating. They should already have a very good idea at who cannot cut it, as most minor-league players cannot, irrespective of whatever lesser league they’re in. Coach K doesn’t bring a bunch of elite NCAA players to the olympics even though he’s intimately familiar with Duke and them. I acknowledge that the gap between US NBA is both bigger and deeper than it is for the USMNT. We just saw the results from relying on familiar MLS players under BA. Why would we want to repeat that disaster? Anticipating a strawman argument, I am not saying that all European players are better than domestic ones. MLS is roughly in line with B2 and the Championship and they should be treated with an equal amount of skepticism of the ability to play at a higher level. We should be particularly wary of non AllStars and career minor leaguers and focus on younger players with elite athleticism or skills. Biasing one of these leagues over the others is silly and even more so, preferring one of these leagues to major-league ones is laughable.
One aspect that gets overlooked way too often in these parts is the actual process of building a team. Yes, players need to have talent and ability to perform at the highest level and on the biggest stages. That said, Talent and ability alone is not going to make one a success at the highest levels. Every team needs players to fill a specific role. Some players are brought in because they can do a job if called upon on the field, but their greater value is in being a good teammate, leader, mentor, or as a veteran presence. This true not only for sports, but also for business teams as well. Not every player is a good fit for the team. Not every player wants to sacrifice the spotlight to fill a role. Some players don't have the passion to play for the national team. We must remember that playing for a national team is a personal choice at the end of the day for the dual citizens.
The concept that domestic born/trained players are more willing to bleed for the shirt, etc over dual citizens is problematic and, more importantly, untrue. It sometimes veers into appearing racist as well, although I’m assuming that’s not your intent here.
That's not at all what I was saying, not even close. Case in point: One of the best players, and most talented players the US has ever produced was born & raised in NJ. He was fortunate enough to have the talent and ability necessary to play football at the international level. He chose to play for the team that had his heart: Italy. Giuseppi Rossi, prior to injuries derailing his career, was quite possibly the best talent this country has ever produced. No one should question the desire of Timmy Chandler, Fabian Johnson or Jermaine Jones when they put on the Red, White, & Blue. Just like no one should question Rossi's desire when he puts on the Azurri's shirt.
I didn’t think you had any racial intent given my recall of your history. I strongly disagree that we need to question dual American’s desire to play hard or a lesser role for the shirt. What I do see is an appearance of trying to shoehorn non exceptional MLS players into a QB rather than a lesser role (GB’s regista is one of the, if not the, most important positions on the team) even though an MLS trained (and therefore well-known to GB per your logic) player has been outstanding at a DM at a far higher level.
I don't disagree with you. We also need to keep in mind that sometimes a player's club team has a lot of say in whether a player is called up, how much they play in an international game, etc. It's not always entirely up to the player. I'm sure Schalke were none too pleased when McKennie picked up an injury while playing in an international friendly.....
I’m open to, and quite frankly hopeful for, the fact that GB hasn’t shown his true colors. If JK and BA are viewed as being on opposing ends of a pendulum wrt league biases, my hope is that GB would be near the center. He has not made any clear indication that he’s any different from BA and that’s what’s concerning. Talks of familiarity doesn’t assuage me at all - in fact, it’s quite worrisome.
Bruce in 2002 was fantastic. Let's talk about the more recent results. Bradley, it was already mentioned, relied on both euro and MLS, and was successful by most accounts. Bruce effed up by relying on players who were past it, and paid for that, defining his legacy. Replicating that tactic is concerning. Giving him time is fine (he'll obviously have time) but that's always the excuse here. Give Jon Gonzalez time to settle in at monterrey, he's only been starting a few months. Then we miss out on him and the WC when he likely could've helped. Give Bruce time, he knows what he's doing, he's smarter than you. Nope, that didn't work either. Sancho is 18 and has started one year for Dortmund. Not sure mentioning his total caps (implying that he's been excluded or not part of the England setup?) is bizarre.
ur confusing bias as far as picking ur favorite flavor ice cream and racial bias. if you are picking 23 american players there are always going to be a few inferior players that is just the way it goes the idea that a good player is being left of for an inferior player is a joke. you are always going to have a sean johnson/christian roldan type player included are they good no but someone has to be in that spot and you can't take a kid who hasn't competed at a level nearly that high and in their case atleast they play regularly against concacaf competition. however great job jumping off the deep end though lol.
I look at it this way ... Maybe Christian Roldan really is one of our best midfielders. But if so, we shouldn't be counting on qualifying for 2022.