What's your take on USMNT preference for MLS?

Discussion in 'USA Men' started by DHC1, Apr 15, 2019.

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What's your take on USMNT preference for MLS?

  1. There's absolutely no preference

    17 vote(s)
    19.3%
  2. There's a preference - it's deserved because they fit better with the system

    1 vote(s)
    1.1%
  3. There's a preference - it's deserved because they're better players

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. Way too early to say if there's a preference

    9 vote(s)
    10.2%
  5. Not ready to indict but early signs are ominous that there's an MLS bias

    18 vote(s)
    20.5%
  6. It's obviously a bias and it's bad for the USMNT

    43 vote(s)
    48.9%
  1. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    There seems to be a wide range of perspectives on whether the USSF has an MLS preference vs. comparable European teams/leagues*. I'd be interested to see where our illustrious BS posters sit on this issue.

    I'd guess that many pro-MLS posters won't vote but I think that simply confirms what one would generally think their position to be. I'm hoping they will participate.

    I'm in category "Not ready to indict but early signs look ominous"


    Note: this is not the "Green plays in Germany so he's better than anyone in MLS, ignoring that he plays for one of the worst teams in the B2 that is ranked in the 500s"
     
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  2. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    #2 adam tash, Apr 16, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2019
    the economic interests of MLS and its owners are served by MLSers being on the USMNT, regardless of merit. MLS needs MLS-USMNTers! the more MLSers are on the USMNT, the better it is for MLS. in fact, even the worst case scenario of a heavy MLS-squad on the USMNT leading to a missed world cup is probably still considered preferable by MLS onwers to a euro-heavy USMNT that goes far in a world cup, imo.

    let's not be naive and assume that the USSF is autonomous and immune to influence from the owners in MLS. there's so much incest in US soccer that even if MLS isn't directly picking rosters or putting input into rosters...there's still clearly an inlfuence on the process from MLS to the USMNT.

    clearly MLS wants MLSers on the USMNT and they have enough sway to make that happen. whether that is simply making sure an MLS-friendly coach got the job or more blatant intervetions is immaterial. i'm sure the selection of the current coach and GM included discussions about how many MLSers each candidate would include in rosters, candidates with a positive view of MLS were moved to the head of the list, etc

    the # of MLSers on the USMNT is variable.it could be zero it could be 23.

    it is hard to compare the players in the US pool to each other. they play in different leagues all over the world. it is genuinely hard to rank all of the USMNT players even without any league-bias involved!

    however when the coach shows bias towards certain players and builds the team around them....and those players are all from MLS it is clear what is going on.

    and the last coach said "there's players in MLS that play that position" when rebuffing euro players...and then proceeding to miss the WC in a cupcake region....it is clear that MLS' interventions into the USMNT are significant and detrimental from a competitive standpoint. it shouldnt even be a question.
     
  3. a_new_fan

    a_new_fan BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jul 6, 2006
    add a choice for this is completely a tin foil hate question/argument so I can chose that one please.
     
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  4. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    SJ Earthquakes/Arsenal
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Pleasanton, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You can just choose "there's no preference" and then back up your choice. That's usually the idea.
     
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  5. Marko72

    Marko72 Member+

    Aug 30, 2005
    New York
    Meh. This question is one of the reasons why this place has become so unreadable in recent months.
     
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  6. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    #6 DHC1, Apr 29, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2019
    I find it fascinating that many posters who look at who has been called up so far are convinced that there's no smoke here. I think it's fair to say that it's really early and therefore inconclusive but really, a third of respondents believe there's no indication at all that GB is following BA's MLS preference? None at all?

    Furthermore, a portion of the poster universe thinks that it shouldn't be a topic at all?

    Viewed in isolation, each individual decision can be easily accepted (and even recommended!) but the totality is fairly striking

    - Making two non-Best XI MLS players the vitally important regista in the system
    - Excluding from the call ups several players from Top 200 teams; FJ, Wood, Morales, Gall, Siebatcheu (who hopefully should be strongly considered as a dual national)
    - Pushing young risers to the U23 team instead of the senior from Top 200 teams: Sargent, Weah
    - excluding from the call ups several players from teams roughly at MLS level: CCV, Holmes, Lichaj, Cameron, Gooch, Amon, Robinson, Nova and Green
    - several head-scratching call upa and playing time given to marginal MLS players

    This is also after the highly disturbing comments by Abby Wambach, BA and LD related to dual nationals and Arena's clear assertion that he preferred MLS players for the Hex.
     
  7. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    There can be a preference/bias without a conspiracy. Simply hiring coaches from MLS is going to create a bias of familiarity. Since, almost all American coaches are in MLS (or leagues in the USA below MLS), then just having a bias at USSF for American coaches would create a pro-MLS bias.
     
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  8. a_new_fan

    a_new_fan BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jul 6, 2006
    because that isn't the truth the truth isn't a multiple choice question with one world decisive statements

    every coach has bias and the people around him that he talks to also have bias but that doesn't mean that garber or bradley are picking the roster.
     
  9. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    SJ Earthquakes/Arsenal
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Pleasanton, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That wasn't an implication of the question either.

    People who say that there is a bias for MLS by-and-large do not say that Garber or Bradley are picking the roster. They just say that there is a bias for MLS players. You admit/assert that there must be some bias, so would it be controversial to say that it's a bias that's tilted toward MLS?
     
  10. yurch10

    yurch10 Member+

    Feb 13, 2004
    So you are upset about the question, consider BS unreadable, believe it's a tinfoil hat conspiracy, but from votes are clearly in the minority. Maybe you should find another message board?
     
  11. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    SJ Earthquakes/Arsenal
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Pleasanton, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Hey now, let's not get upset.
     
  12. yurch10

    yurch10 Member+

    Feb 13, 2004
    Hope nobody's upset, but I find it odd that people aren't happy and claim it's simply a couple turrible posters creating a toxic environment for the rest, when this poll strongly implies the turrible posters with tinfoil hats are the majority.
     
  13. laxcoach

    laxcoach Member+

    Borussia Dortmund
    United States
    Jul 29, 2017
    SUM's bias is clear and profit motivated like all of the US. SUM is for profit marketer of the MLS. SUM partners with the USMNT.

    Yeah, no bias there. And windmills cause cancer.

    As for Berhalter, he's an MLS coach. He's comfy with non all star MLS players. His bias will show soon enough but hopefully it's not at Arena levels. I prefer watching the USMNT and will if the best players are there, regardless of W-L record.

    Is the bias for MLS or against players abroad?
     
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  14. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    SJ Earthquakes/Arsenal
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Pleasanton, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well, I mean, Cordiero campaigned for the Presidency by saying that MLS/SUM/USSF at the very least created a situation that makes it seem like there is a lot of room for impropriety, even if they are opaque-enough organizations to avoid outright, obvious, corruption/conflicts of interest.

    And as soon as Cordiero becomes President, mum's the word. Weird how that works. I don't think it means he's a puppet or anything, but it's like a politician making a stand against something strongly on the campaign trail... then doing nothing when they get into office...
     
  15. skim172

    skim172 Member+

    Feb 20, 2013
    I think there's a preference, but I'm hesitant to call it collusion. Collusion implies an active, intentional effort - and I think the majority of the motivation is simply that the leadership of MLS, SUM, and USSF are very familiar and very knowledgeable with each other, with many shared interests, so it naturally pushes them towards working with one another.

    Like if you were hiring an employee and your two candidates were A, a former employee who you'd worked well with before and was good friends with some of the other people in the company already and you were very familiar with, and B, a guy off the street with whom you had no mutual acquaintances. You know A well, you already know how he works, he knows you, he knows the job, and if there was anything you didn't know about him, you've got ten other people you can ask. For B, all you have is a resume and a couple references you can call. Unless there's something glaringly obvious that marks B the superior candidate, you're probably gonna hire A.

    So the USSF coaches are more likely to bring in an MLS guy - who they watch every weekend, probably met in person, know his coaches personally, and for whom they have mounds of scouting reports and videotape going back to his youth days - than, say, a guy playing in the Belarusian Premier League - who they've never seen live, never met in person, his coaches don't speak English, and all they have on him is maybe a few reports on his youth days before he went overseas, and a couple Youtube clips, and a phone number for his agent, who's based in Europe. Do we even have a scout in Belarus?

    So I wouldn't go so far as to say the USSF is actively conspiring with the MLS (well, not all of it). But I would say that the leadership in American soccer is probably too insular and circumscribed, with all these insider connections turning the culture into a loop. That can kill fresh ideas, new perspectives, and potential for improvement.
     
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  16. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    I have little doubt that BA didn’t conspire with MLS to bring the USMNT down. He actually believed that MLS players and coaches are vastly under-rated and wanted to prove that point badly (probably for his own sizable ego).

    He was clearly overconfident and thereby meaningfully lowered our probability of advancing to the Hex (although we still should have qualified).

    It’s not conspiracy that I’m concerned about - it’s stupidity combined with naivety.
     
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  17. yurch10

    yurch10 Member+

    Feb 13, 2004
    #17 yurch10, Apr 30, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2019
    More like you could hire A, with whom you are familiar but has shown to be an average/below average performer (missing WC), or hire B, who you may not know as well, but have legitimate reasons to believe are better than A.

    Also, I'm not sure in 2019 we are having difficulty getting video of Bundesliga, SPL, Championship matches.

    We already have legitimate proof, actual literal proof, that MLS guys can't perform to the level we require. In what way can people still believe this is a logical set of decisions?
     
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  18. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    As I re-read this, it’s not clear what I mean.

    I do not believe that BA conspired with anyone to hurt the USMNT. He wanted the team to do well
     
  19. zhe fulano

    zhe fulano Member

    Orlando City
    United States
    Jan 31, 2010
    Florida Keys, USA
    Club:
    Everton FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    When all of us were waiting for Ernie Stewart & company to pick a USMNT coach, I commented on a couple of occasions that Berhalter's attractiveness was in large part his familiarity with the MLS talent pool. If his decisions are reflecting a bias, it is because MLS is his comfort zone. He has years of experience in assessing the MLS player pool and in deciding who is talented and who isn't.

    But the time to get results is almost here. His selections for the Gold Cup and the upcoming qualifiers will determine whether the Big Soccer gurus views him as biased, a soccer coaching genius or something in between. "Just win, baby!"

    Just my 2 cents.

    I wonder what Erik Wynalda thinks?
     
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  20. yurch10

    yurch10 Member+

    Feb 13, 2004
    I always thought people were hopeful on GB because he coached in Europe for a few years, but also knows MLS?

    I realize his performance coaching in Europe was average, but wasn't he also in Germany as a player for years? Weird that there seems to be bias from someone who has spent years playing/coaching at the highest levels in Europe before moving back stateside.
     
  21. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    zhe fulano,

    thanks for the reasonable take.

    Question: isn't one of the most important part of being familiar with the MLS pool the ability to see who can rise to a greater level? I think MLS is akin to an elite college sports / AA baseball team - it's a strong level in-and-of-itself but there's a large gap between its level and the elite (NBA, MLB, NFL, Big 4). To be clear, there are certainly minor league players who will eventually rise to play at better levels but the overall level of play is slower and less nuanced than what the USMNT will see vs. better teams - it is a huge mistake to look at success in this league as indicative of the ability to elevate (look at the Heisman winners who never made the jump). The key question then is identifying the diamonds in the rough.

    Former MLS managers certainly should be familiar with the pool but they really should be looking to see who has the ability at the next level. Being familiar with MLS should make him better at that and by better, I mean more discriminating. But that's not what we've seen so far.

    More specifically, it's hard to understand how someone very familiar with Trapp, Bradley and Adams makes the decision to build around Trapp/Bradley as the regista and TA in support.
     
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  22. a_new_fan

    a_new_fan BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jul 6, 2006
    I'd say its been implicated but its been stated clearly on this board that bradley had a level of final approval for usmnt rosters, garber had the second largest impact on the roster and that was what caused the mls bias.

    I know for a fact this is a lie for the simple reason that players would know this and guys like benny wouldn't go after JK they would go after bradley/garber for not making rosters.

    the other reason I know the mls bias is a myth is even more simple

    JK took over the us coach and td roles because he wanted to have complete control...does it make any sense he would say 'yeah I want to be coach and td...but I don't care about rosters you can pick those for me'. He then of course took julian green and mix over donovan....sure sounds like an mls bias to me.

    people just don't understand there just aren't enough good players overseas. You have guys playing for youth teams and guys like gall/amon playing in leagues that are garbage.

    tin foil hat people just love a good conspiracy.
     
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  23. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    SJ Earthquakes/Arsenal
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Pleasanton, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Then we'll have to agree to disagree then.
    No, you don't, which is why people disagree with you. Oof.

    If only the board were as enlightened as you. Cause either most of this board is crazy, or you're the crazy one.
     
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  24. FanOfFutbol

    FanOfFutbol Member+

    May 4, 2002
    This is a hard poll to answer because the questions are themselves biased or at least biasing. Many of them are the "Have you stopped beating your wife" type of question and there are so many choices missing like "There is a bias toward non-US based players."

    The fact is, as I have stated in other threads, that we do not have enough players of quality to even form an 11 man team that would be competitive at the level of say Switzerland.

    The MLS is also a very poor league to develop players that can compete at the international level anywhere except CONCACAF and, maybe, OFC.

    We need to do better and trying to find a "bias" in selection with a poll that is in itself biased is actually counter productive.

    I think there "should" be a bias toward quality but the USSF and their minions haven't a clue what "quality" means and they would not know a real quality player that had not been touted in the press even if that player ran up to them and kicked them in the shins.
     
  25. a_new_fan

    a_new_fan BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jul 6, 2006

    so you go from disagreeing that garber/bradley were influencing the roster/lineups...to then saying someone from mls is influencing the rosters...if not garber..who? it makes zero sense and there is zero proof.
     
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