LA needs to acquire more TAM to pay down Omar's salary next year, unless a new mechanism is created to accommodate his DP level salary. Aren't we better off to sell him? I personally believe ever since he signed the DP contract in 2013, he's done very little to justify it. He was quite mediocre during the second half of last year, poor in the Cup Final. This year, despite a number of people I've seen claiming he's been good to great, I think he's actually been pretty bad. The number one priority as a defender is to not concede goals. Anything else is great but if goals are conceded you have to conclude that a defender has failed. It's not like he's scoring a bunch of headed goals to offset his defensive lapses. He had yet another shocker last night against RSL. Is there really that much of a drop off in quality from him to a decent MLS defender? Certainly not enough to justify the difference in salary. At this rate I think it's best to offload him to anyone who'll take him and his salary, even to another MLS team. I compiled a list of goals Omar has conceded just this year.. To be fair to him, I left out a few (at Portland and at Red Bulls) where it could be argued he couldn't have been expected to do better. The list includes 4 losses and 1 draw (14 dropped points). There are 3 wins on the list as well, but all 3 were come from behind wins after Omar conceded the first goal. I'll add the video for last nights RSL game when it's up. vs Colorado, Omar dwells on ball high up midfield, makes bad pass that is intercepted for counter and goal http://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/ma...galaxy-vs-colorado-rapids/details/video/37708 Result 1-1 draw at Dallas, Omar dragged out of box by Perez, and then stops marking Perez to follow pass and double attacker on ball, Perez runs in unmarked to receive pass and score http://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/matchcenter/2015-05-09-fc-dallas-vs-la-galaxy/details/video/38367 Result 2-1 loss vs Vancouver, Omar defending Manneh on counter, needs to and tries to show Manneh out wide, yet still allows Manneh to cut inside, wrong-foot him, and shoot and score http://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/ma...vs-vancouver-whitecaps-fc/details/video/40842 Result 0-1 loss at Colorado, ball cleared to edge of box, Omar (and possibly Leo as well) slow to move up, plays Sarvas onside, pass comes in and Sarvas poaches goal right in front of Omar http://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/ma...orado-rapids-vs-la-galaxy/details/video/45759 Result 1-3 win vs Seattle, Omar loses Barrett, who drifts to far post and scores off cross http://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/ma...xy-vs-seattle-sounders-fc/details/video/46715 Result 3-1 win at Dallas, Barrios on counter, Omar goes to ground for last-ditch challenge but doesn't take out the player or the ball, Barrios scores http://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/matchcenter/2015-08-15-fc-dallas-vs-la-galaxy/details/video/47090 Result 1-2 win at San Jose, shot rebounds from Ricketts save, Omar ball watching and Salinas runs by him to poach goal http://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/ma...-earthquakes-vs-la-galaxy/details/video/48268 Result 1-0 loss at Salt Lake, Omar marking Sandoval, ball looped into box, Omar ball watching and loses Sandoval, who poaches goal Result 3-0 loss
Good amount of work put in. I don't think Omar's gotten worse -- I actually think he's improved. However, I think the style we play now has exposed his weaknesses more. When we played the two banks of flat four, Omar looked really dominant eating up crosses. He has to be a bit more tactical defensively now as we are usually sending both fullbacks into attack and he's expected to join the attack more or pass/dribble out of possession. He's gotten better at those skills, but is still behind where he needs to be to thrive in this system consistently, I think.
I think we should keep him away from the national team as long as JK is in charge. Edit: I don't think you can measure a defender by cataloguing his mistakes. Many times I've despaired at and criticized Omar's game, only to find that he had the stats to prove that he was influential for the positive. I know you put in a lot of work, but he has had lots of goal-saving plays for us as well. It would be like putting together a catalog of a goal-scorers misses and eliminating all of their goals. Another thing - I'd like to see him be more effective on set pieces for us. Why can't we do better on set pieces?
I agree that his distribution has definitely improved from a couple years ago, when he was absolutely dreadful. He's still good to great on crosses. My main contention is he lacks awareness and whenever quick decisions need to be made, he's quite poor, and it dearly costs the team.
Doesn't have to be TAM, it can just be "regular" Allocation. I say sign him to a new long term deal in the offseason. More than league max, less than DP. He's certainly not played well enough with the national team or LA to warrant much interest from Europe, seriously he let Devon Sandoval score.
Yeah I see what you're saying, But i'm trying to illuminate not just his mistakes, but the cost of those mistakes, and the nature of those mistakes. From his gaffes we drop tons of points or get put behind early, and his mistakes are of those of awareness in critical moments, and the fact that he's so poor in those settings means he's not worth 1.5 mil a year. And stats are great but like I asserted above, goals matter most. And yeah I'd feel less harsh if he would score some set piece goals, besides the fortunate one against SKC. It's obviously hard to find video of outright goal-saving plays by Omar (especially subtle ones) because of the nature of highlights, but from watching every game, I simply don't recall a lot. I could be wrong
Being able to use regular Garber bucks would indeed require a totally new contract, no? Or is that not needed because paying down his contract next year won't be to facilitate a new DP, as opposed to this year? I'm not certain, but I strongly suspect you're right and a new deal is needed. At any rate, he does not deserve his current wages. He's making more costly mistakes than Leo FFS, who gets a ton of flack for his goal-conceding errors (rightly so), despite any good play otherwise.
As stated, accommodating his salary next year is not possible given the current restrictions of the salary cap. We need more TAM, a totally new contract for Omar (pay cut), or find a buyer/trader for him.
A big part is that our main target on set pieces is Omar. It makes sense to target him, after all he is 6'5", but he isn't much of a goal scorer. We've had some pretty damn good set piece takers (Becks, Donovan) over the past few years and I've literally seen 100's of these corners and free kicks taken and the ball delivered quite well most of the time but he still has only managed 14 goals in 7 seasons. He's played in 176 regular games and 24 post-season games, so 200 MLS games in total. And we earn several set pieces per game, so we may be up to around 1000 set pieces that Omar has been involved in. He scores about one goal every 15 games and probably only about a half of those were from him heading in an initial ball from a free kick or corner. His problem is he really doesn't have great technique at either getting himself open or at finishing when he does get to the ball first. His timing and use of picks and misdirection aren't that strong, and he ends up telegraphing his runs more often than not. (I wish he would stop all the jumping up and down before the kick is taken. I think it psychs up his defender(s) as much as anything and I don't think it helps his concentration or his timing one whit, and probably hurts them.) Defenders can't out-jump him but they usually can stay with him and challenge him as he goes up. And when he does get to the ball first he seldom executes a sharp, well placed header. However the one time he did look great in the air was his equalizer in the 2012 MLS Cup Final against Houston. We were down 0-1 in the 6oth minute when Juninho sends a beautiful cross in and Omar soars above two defenders to score a beautiful header, perfectly placed just inside the far post. That very high profile goal pushed his reputation even higher (he had had a great season and it was already high) and IMO got him his DP contract.
Good points, skydog. I never have the slightest feeling that we might score on a corner, I'm always just waiting for it to be over. It's not a good feeling. You've got to blame the coaches. They should be changing how Omar attacks the ball, or just use him as a decoy and aim for someone else. It seems lazy that we have bad set pieces. We are also mediocre on throw-ins, sometimes indifferent about winning the ball.
You sell Leo, Buddle,Vayrynen and take their cash plus whatever you were going to pay Dunivant and pay down Omar. You ride with Omar and AJ as your startling centerbacks with Romney and Meyer as your backups.Omar has been excellent for this team and is in the middle of his first real bad year for LA. When the dude was Finals MVP and arguably team MVP people still argued against paying him correctly. Has he been DP worth this year? No but then again he has had to deal with a partner in centerback that constantly leaves him in crap situations. Get that man his real partner and a pair of fullbacks that play defense better than offense and you not only get the dominate LA backline back but you also get your dominate Omar.
I blame this on not having Gerrard take the corners. I really wish I could see this in practice but is Gio just that much better at it or is Bruce just giving him something extra to do in game. I haven't respected our set piece attack since Beckham retired.
Someone came into our threads to say that Gerrard was known to be outstanding on direct kicks, but not dangerous on corners. I wouldn't know. I noticed this game that Gio was taking only the left footed corners and Juninho the right ones.
We didn't score on set pieces that often when Becks was here. Which gets to Geneva's point - at some level this has to be coaching. To be honest most teams don't score on corner kicks - I think the average around the world is 1 in 40 or so. But I think we are likely significantly below that. I remember one season where we had 0 goals on corner kicks late in the season (commentators were mentioning it). As far as our stats on set pieces in general - I'm not sure how we stand. But we don't seem to be very dangerous on them.
The issue isn't solved by dumping salary in the offseason to pay down Omar. He's already at a max cap hit and we're ok with the cap. The issue is he's a a DP in a team with three other DPs and the new rule only allows that if his DP salary (which is in excess of the max cap hit) is paid down to non-DP level with TAM. We've already used our allotment of TAM and don't have any to pay down his salary next year. Thus we need either more TAM, redo his contract as a non-DP (but can still be max cap hit, or possibly even a little higher and paid down with normal allocation money), or sell/trade him. Chris Klein has said they still don't know what they're going to do to be able to keep him next year, but will wait and see what mechanisms arise that they can use. He's also previously admitted that they would be perfectly willing to sell Omar if a good offer comes in. My argument is his play this year (and a lot of last year) does not warrant his DP salary, so the solution is get rid of him while we can still get something remotely substantial for him, unless he's willing to take a huge pay cut. A decent MLS level defender would not be that far of a drop in level from 2015 Omar, and he'd be way cheaper. We'd be back to three DPs and could get a new one when/if we get more TAM or Keane/Gerrard leaves. I don't think it's fair to blame Leo for Omar's mistakes- check the clips. That was why I posted the video clips- to illustrate Omar's brain farts, which this year shockingly seem more numerous and severe than even Leo's. The difference is Leo isn't making 1.5 mil a year and taking a DP slot. I think dominant Omar is dominant through the air, which he still mostly is. He's gotten better at distributing and playing out from the back. But his mental errors/switching off, unrelated to others' mistakes, has become so much worse and in my view negated his progress in those other areas, because he gives up so many goals this year. Omar signing as a DP was a bit of a panic move in 2013. Leiweke had left, and the Lampard deal hit the rocks. We also weren't able to persuade Giovani to sign that year either. Thus the odd move of signing a defender, who was already on the roster, as the third and final DP was made. It was criticized at the time by more than a few, and I think it hasn't really been justified since then either.
Guys. He's ranked the #1 CB in MLS right now (that's right, better than Ciman, Miazga and Besler). In terms of overall players in MLS (whoscored): 1. Giovinco 7.82 2. Omar Gonzalez 7.66 3. Kei Kamara 7.65 (Squawka loves him as well.) That list is with an MVP candidate and the golden boot contender surrounding him. @met999 , he truly has not been "bad" this year if you review the stats. He played well against Drogba, and I think it was the SJ game where he had 18 interceptions (!) as an example. Now stats aren't the be all/end all, I get it. But you can use it as a leading indicator to at least say he's not having a crummy year. I think there may be a few things going on: a) We have heightened expectations, so we look at him more. b) Due to USMNT shenanigans, we look at him more. c) His mistakes are really bad, but he quietly has decent games (this might be what you're seeing). d) Leonardo effect instead of AJ playing next to him It's likely a combination of those. For me, get the money via the suggestions above, and pay the man. We need him.
Thanks for posting actual evidence. However, I have to argue that this is a case of the stats flattering to deceive. It doesn't look like there's a clear method in either whoscored or squawka to truly penalize a player for defensive errors. You just have stats like clearances, interceptions, etc. Tell me, if we had a CM who consistently made 79/80 passes a game, never committed a foul, made a few tackles a game, but also every single game made a misplaced back pass that resulted in conceding a goal--- is he worth playing? His stats would be great, as the conceded goal would simply be the one unsuccessful pass, and the conceded goal would count against the keeper more than anyone else, but he doesn't pass the eye test as he's costing the team the most important stat in the game. Unfortunately that's the nature of the game. As I stated in my OP, a defender can play well for 89 minutes, then switch off, and concede a goal, and you would have to say he failed, particularly if the team loses. Now imagine him doing that 10 or more times a season. He's arguably not even a good defender then, let alone a DP, despite what his stats say, as he's become a liability in key moments. I would consider that "bad", despite the stats. But looking at the stats anyway, on whoscored.com there is no clear category for defensive errors, which I think is a real problem in the rating system. And in fact, looking at the defensive categories, despite Omar having a better overall subjective rating (7.66 to 7.25), LEONARDO is equal or better at all the objective defensive categories except only for aerials won (which is listed under offensive) and clearances. Tackles/game: Leo 2.3, Omar 1.7 Interceptions/game: Leo 4.9, Omar 4.7 Offsides/game: Leo 1.3, Omar 1.0 Blocks/game: Leo 0.5, Omar 0.5. Also, just for comparison, AJ is rated overall at 6.96. Is he worse than Leo? On squawka, there actually is a category for defensive errors, but Omar is listed as only having ONE! I think you can see by what I posted that he has way more than one, and they've been costly. The problem is, how do you quantify mistakes like ball watching, a bad pass leading to a counter, going to ground for a challenge in an important spot and not getting any of the ball, etc.? I think (c) is true-- his mistakes are quite bad, as they lead to goals. And I concede he does have decent games, as the stats back that up as does watching the games. However, that is exactly my point-- that's not DP level quality as a defender, especially if he's not scoring set piece goals to counteract his defensive errors leading to goals. Your description of Omar as a DP defender, at minimum, should be, "His mistakes are really bad, but he has very few, and he also has great games." I'd rather have a OK/decent defender who simply plays consistently, and maybe makes more errors overall but makes fewer errors that outright lead to goals, and importantly, does not take up a DP slot. That's what Omar pre-DP contract was. Even Leo could be described that way, as importantly, Leo has made fewer errors that led directly to goals this year. I wouldn't be able to post as many clips of him as I did of Omar. And I'm amazed that that's the case. Someone else posted that we take the salary space from dumping 4 players (including Leonardo) and use it to keep Omar here. I already clarified that it can't work that way, unless maybe Omar takes a huge paycut to a non-DP salary, which I would advocate, and again is really the point of my post. But I seriously doubt he'll do that. And still, at his level of play, taking into account those 8 (!) bad mistakes I posted *that led directly to goals*, is he worth using the salary of all those (or new) squad players that would provide depth? Robbie Keane is worth that. Landon was too. Not Omar. Imagine if next year, to keep Lletget, we need a DP slot. Based on performance, would you rather have him in that slot or Omar? If you want to use a DP slot on a defender, doesn't AJ deserve it more? The point of my OP is: based on performance, and taking into account his many errors that outright led to goals, which I backed up with video, is Omar worth jumping through all the hoops the club would have to jump through next year to keep him? These hoops include potentially acquiring more TAM from another team by trading a player or players and losing squad depth, and using up a DP slot that could be filled with someone who actually contributes to goals for our team. I understand there's emotion and subjectivity involved here. I like Omar a lot, especially as a pre-2014 defender, but started being disappointed in him last year, and was hopeful he could improve upon his mental mistakes, but he really hasn't. That's why I posted the objective video evidence for my contention. People were calling for Leonardo's head in previous years for similar mistakes. Imagine if the video clips I posted were all of Leonardo instead of Omar, and all the stats we've discussed were also of Leo instead of Omar. Be honest, would anyone really be upset if he were cut loose, or at best, riding the bench? You definitely wouldn't want to pay him 1.5 mil as a DP.
Okay seriously who do you think LA could get to replace Omar that would be better than him in his position for less money or better yet, is there a CB that we can get that would be DP worthy that can be paid for with TAM other than Omar. Paying down his salary with regular allocation money and then trading draft picks and other players for more TAM is worth it at the end of the day if it meant keeping the guy that has made us "oh how soon we forget" fans eat crow more than once at the idea that he was not worth the money. And as for Leonardo, (who isn't even in the same category as Omar when it comes to who is the better player) I have suffered watching this man for the better part of 6 years and watched him repeatedly, Repeatedly cost us games. Not just a shutout here or there, full on wins. The idea that he and Omar are currently equal even after taking into consideration some of the circumstances that resulted in some of Omar's recent bad play, well that idea is laughable to me. Talk about fairness. I don't think it's fair that Leonardo, a player that should have been traded years ago, who finally has ONE decent season gets a pass to stay on this team versus Omar a guy that has been money in the bank and underpaid for years has a lackluster season and now not only is his not worth the cash but he should be sold first chance we get. For every example you've posted of an Omar brain fart I can post 2 videos of Omar saving the Galaxy's bacon and making dudes like Leo look good and that's post DP money. Now if the Galaxy wanna be cheap and have just okay defenders they can make guys like Romney and Tommy Meyer the starters and sell the likes of Omar and then one day AJ as well. He already gave up his DP title to remain in this team and God knows Jurgen Klinsmann has done him no favors with the international market with the stupid partnerships and lineups he has used him in as of late. But I warn you now, dumping Omar and going full power mediocre in the backline will only comeback and bite the Galaxy deep and hard in the A$$. And who can say how long of a wait it will be before we get a truly solid backline again. Rogers --Leonardo--Meyer--AJ -----------------Ricketts Yeah that lineup gives me ZERO confidence. Teams are going right down the middle of that at will.
Well I watched the first three (that's all I could take with all of these gd commercials at the beginning of each one) and don't agree with your classing these as "Omar conceded goals." Omar has some culpability in two of them but other players have more in all of them. First one vs COL: Omar is advanced pretty far, 20 yards or so in front of the the back line which now has 3 players in it. Omar turns over the ball in midfield, a long pass is made to the Colo player who Leo is standing next to and is supposed to be marking. Leo is soooo slow in reaction and foot speed (re-watch the tape) and the COL player goes on a 30 yard romp and scores, with Leo trailing 3 yards behind, losing ground all the way. Remember the COL player is dribbling part of the way, Leo is just "sprinting" (if that is what you want to call his full speed pace). A good defender would have been next to the COL player (no one else to mark) and fouled him immediately to kill the counter. At worst he would have chased him down and professionally "bumped" him or at least been on his shoulder to pressure his shot. Verdict: Example of Omar making a passing mistake upfield and a player being "marked" by Leo scoring. Second one vs Dallas: Not remotely Omar's fault. If the passer had hit Perez the moment Omar leaves him I would have blamed Omar. But as you say Omar steps up to double on the ball. But by the time the ball is chipped over the top of there are SIX LA Players on the back line, one of whom is Gordon. Gordo can easily clear the ball out for a corner but instead goes for a spectacular bicycle kick out of the box, MISSES EVERYTHING, and Perez sees the ball fall to the ground untouched and scoops it into the goal. Gordo going for the ball and missing caused that goal. He prevented Penedo from coming out for the ball and presented a gift for Perez. To be objective, think how mad we would be at Omar if he tried to bicycle out the ball and whiffed leaving the ball to be scored. No goal is scored if Gordo just knocks ball out and probably no goal if Gordo does nothing. Verdict: Prime culprit - Gordo. Third one vs Vancouver: Exact mirror of first one vs COL with Varyxnx playing Omar and Omar playing Leo (but Omar doing much better than Leo). In this case it is Varyxnn who makes a bad turnover in midfield. The ball is immediately passed to Manneh, probably the fastest player in MLS. Omar man marks him for 15 yards or so shuffling back until Manneh cuts back at the top of the box and shoots from the edge of the box and scores. You say Omar should have forced him outside and their is some truth to that but two things: one is that another LA defender had stepped toward Manneh on the side Omar turned him to. Omar may have thought he had help there. Second was the fact it just was a great goal by Manneh. When a defender is facing a 1 v 1 counter by a speedy forward like Manneh and ends up forcing him to shoot from 18 yards out rather than get by him, he has done a pretty decent job. Not a great job, but not at all a blunder. (Objectivity Question: Why is Omar the culprit in the first case and Varyxnn isn't the culprit in this case? Or conversely why isn't Leo the culprit in the first case if Omar is in this one?) Verdict: Omar did well to stay goal side of Manneh, but could have done better at blocking the shot. I don't have the time or energy to go through the rest. But of the first 3 not one is an example of Omar being the prime culprit in the goal being scored.
Totally forgot that a few Liverpool fans say that this is indeed the case. You'd think he could at least take the freekicks though as I have seen him do that very well.
Omar like Chad Marshall at Columbus are very powerful in their position when their heads are in the game. Omar seems tired. I tend to think his issue is a combination of the short off season combined with national team duty. I would hang on to him because he is young and I expect he will bounce back.
I actually don't think a replacement would necessarily be better at everything Omar does, however, the mistakes are costly this year. Someone who plays within himself and simply is solid without making the huge errors is fine. Now would we concede more goals? Possibly! But at least we'd have cap space and a DP slot open, to possibly get say, an attacking player, or a physically imposing holding mid like Jermaine Jones, who wanted to come to us in 2014 but couldn't because we didn't have a DP slot open then, due to Omar holding one. I personally don't think we should be using a DP slot on any defender. And again, I don't believe paying down his salary with regular allocation money can be done, unless he loses his DP contract, which would be great. Unfortunately, we need more TAM, or a loophole/new rule next year. To be clear, I'd be ecstatic if Omar stayed with a Diskerud style contract. Then no complaints from me, even with his errors. I'm totally with you that Leo is not as good a player as Omar is. Sometimes Leo plays as if he has no godly idea what he's doing. However, he has improved a bit, and again, he's making peanuts compared to Omar and IS NOT A DP. When Leo screws up, that's really on Bruce Arena, cuz we all know what we're getting with Leo. When Omar makes mistakes, as a DP 1.5 mil/yr player who is locked in as a starter, that's on Omar, because we do and should expect a much higher level of play. Yeah your back line with Leo and Meyer is not great, but again, there's a DP slot vacated with Omar's absence, so it's not like everything else would be the same. Maybe we give up slightly more goals, maybe not, but then maybe a new DP accounts for us scoring more goals, or like J. Jones, shores up the midfield a bit (would probably require a formation change).
To my point, Marshall is not a DP, while Omar is. Seattle's situation with Marshall is much better than ours with Omar.