What Juventus 2010 means for Japan 2010

We're not Barca. But if that's your standard... we are in even deeper sht. Because then we'd be looking at playing all 5 strikers, given Okada's penchant for subbing forwards.

Sure, 451 is fine if we're just looking to pick up a point... personally, I'd prefer to at least win 1 game. But what do I know? Maybe Okada has figured out a grand plan to get through on 2 points like the 2005 World Youth Championships...

 

It's not about pretending to be the Barça, it's about using formulas that work. 4-4-2 with Honda being behing two strikers implies only one pure defensive midfielder and it's suicide, or 3 defensive minded midfielders behind Honda and it would annihilate the wings. This is not used anymore.

Let's face the truth, we're expecting the goals coming by the midfielders. So a 4-5-1 formula would strenghten our midfield. I wanna see the quality we used to play one year or one years and half ago, again.

 

Now you've taken the situation completely out of context.
I asked what would happen if Morimoto wasn't up to it or Okazaki got injured... my suggestion was to basically play Honda as the 2nd striker.
Not play Honda behind 2 strikers. I've never said anything of that sort.

We are? Well I suppose given the side Okada has selected we'll be forced to now.

 

Sorry, I misunderstood .

With any side I would think the same. Look at the last two WC ... Even with our best forwards the ones who were scoring were the midfielders.

 

Ok, my hypothetical situation was just to work with what you said on the first page, "With players like Yano in the mix, I think it's entirely justifiable to lay the blame at Okada." That seems to me like whatever Yano does wrong, its Okada's fault for bringing him. I just used that hypothetical situation as an example of to say that Okada is not at fault for everything.

Here's the Yanagisawa miss
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lolJ5XKZDYo&feature=related"]YouTube- 2006 FIFA ?????????? VS ?????????????[/ame]
Now I know Yanagisawa had the best movement out of anyone in the past 14yrs but tell me what he did that Yano would not have done. All he did was run with the play.

Now go to 0:40 and here's Morishige's sitter vs the US in the olympic.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2PhW4QCvN4&translated=1"]YouTube- ???? ?? ????? ?????[/ame]
Once again, what did he do that Yano would not have done.

 

Thanks, because I haven't seen Henagisawa's miss enough times already.
If Yano misses a sitter, yea... it'll be Okada's fault because chances are somebody else would have finished it and somebody else definitely should've been on the pitch.
If Okazaki misses a sitter, then I agree you really can't blame Okada.
I don't think you can blame Zico for playing Yanagi either.

Your analogy is somewhat confusing because you are trying to boil the entire competition down to 1 *hypothetical* event.
Yano isn't half the striker Maeda, Sato, or Kagawa are. He offers the team nothing. We'd be better off to just sub in Iwamasa and play Tulio up front if that's what he's there for.
With those 3 forwards, I cannot see how they do not negatively effect Japan at the World Cup. To me it's as bad as Sven's debacle in 2006... the particulars are slightly different but the outcome is similar.
We cannot play 3 games in short succession with just 2 legitimate strikers. They will play. And if they don't play, wtf did we bring them instead of a kid like Kagawa?
If Japan makes it out of the group, the team has no chance in the R16 imo... unless it's on penalties or a jammy set piece goal. Because the team Okada has brought Has.No.Depth.

All this talk about the 5 or 6 (or whatever magic # you guys are talking about now) players that Japan "always" wins with doesn't real mean squat. You don't go to the World Cup with 11 players -- it requires a team, and We.Don't.Have.One.
GK - we basically have just 2 keepers... overlookable if this was the only thing
DF - Uchida is naive, Nakazawa is in meltdown, and Tulio is hardly at the top of his game either. Even if Iwamasa plays, he has no game time with this setup. WTF is that ? The only player I'm confident of here is Nagatomo. Komano has the exact same issues as Uchida, and Konno isn't even worth mentioning imo.
MF - Naka is still quality but he's past his best and lost his touch with FKs 2 years ago, Endo is having a terrible season and looked like he was about to fall down dead just a month ago, and who are we really playing on the left? Kengo? Not having a terrific season himself yet either -- in part due to injury. Matsui? Should be the preferred option imo. Yet the best player - Honda - is likely to only play a small role in Okada's plans. Hasebe is the only one that seems like a player I'd want to rely on at this point. What do we have for backups in CM if something happens? Inamoto or Abe? Fk.
FW - This has been gone over ad nauseum. But again, we have a key player whose only got 2 caps. Why ???
And more dredge.

Short version of backups:
RB: Komano -- same as Uchida, could be too attack minded for this level
LB: Konno? Abe? ... just shoot me now
CB: Iwamasa -- how many caps has he had again ???
DM: Inamoto (underwhelming), Abe (fk)
AMs: Honda and Kengo -- looks good to me
FW: fk fk fk

Keep in mind -
- Nakazawa has been terrible
- Endo has not been himself at all
- Kengo is coming back from injury
- Morimoto only has 2 caps and hasn't played much at Catania lately

- There will almost certainly be more knocks (and we know from experience this won't cause Okada to drop them... they'll probably even play anyway, like he's done countless times) from the next 3 games... and quite probably somebody will get hurt in the groups... this is why you take 23 players, not 11... not 17... but 23.
- Do you not see the dropoff from Endo a year ago to Endo of now... or, god forbid, we have to play Abe or Inamoto?
Or do you not see how this team would be infinitely better had Okada pulled his head out of his rear and really brought some other players like Ogasawara in ?
- Do you not see the massive dropoff after the 2 choice strikers -- and wtf has Morimoto only been capped twice ??
- While there isn't a huge dropoff at CB in quality... we have yet another case of Okada bringing a player he hasn't involved in the preparation very much.
- If Nagatomo goes down we will be mercilessly raped down the left hand side.

Looking at this whole situation, it seems pretty obvious to me that -- regardless of what happens -- Okada's selections will definitely be a large factor in Japan's exit from the World Cup.
Probably in the groups, but I still have hope the best 11 can get out of the group if there's a miracle -- like nobody getting hurt at all. (Unfortunately we play the Dutch second, so I anticipate some injuries before Denmark.)
Yet even then, they just don't have the depth of team to make it farther than that. Unless you've got a world-beater like Zidane, you *NEED* that 3rd CM or 3rd CB or 3rd and 4th strikers when you play high-octane games in this kind of competition. It's not an option. It's a requirement.
We don't have it. We *could* have it. But Okada has opted instead to go for a side where the best XI is virtually a given. Which also happens to just simplify our opponent's preparation significantly... since there is little doubt who will play or the legitimate options Okada has available in case of injuries or tactics.

 

This is what I don't understand. Why is it ok to blame Okada if Yano misses but not when Okazaki misses. I understand that it should have been someone else instead of Yano but he's a professional player ffs. I don't care if its a 17yr old from J2. I expect him to score a sitter.

I agree with a lot of what you said after that but the difference between Iwamasa and Nakazawa does not matter against Eto'o. The difference between Maeda and Yano does not make a difference against Agger. The difference between Kagawa and Kengo does not make a difference against De Jong. Individually, we will not stand a chance regardless of who we bring in. Then perhaps the players who will work better as a team and in the system, and not as an individual, would help us more. It seems to me as that is what Okada has gone with. I'm not saying I agree with it, but I can understand it.

AmericanKaka, I am super sorry I completely went off topic.

 

Because Okada is the one who made the decision to play somebody like Yano.

I don't agree at all.
I don't hold any of those players on a pedestool.
In fact I don't think Agger played that well this year til they moved him from CB.
Sure, more times than not Eto'o may get the best of either player... but he can be shut down as well. African Nations Cup proved that.
I'm also not comparing Kagawa and Kengo... I can accept that Kengo, Naka, and Endo were all automatics because they've been involved for so long. The issue is that Okada has no 2nd options. The only 2nd option we have is Honda... who should probably be starting every match.
Besides, de Jong was already shown to be a bumbling headless chicken that was lucky not to be red carded after several incidents in the first half alone.

If we were talking about just Tamada and Abe, I could agree you have a point. Abe has a certain value as a "last-gap one-stop-shop" player that, in an emergency, can play a variety of roles badly.
But Yano and Okubo are not "team player" system types... nor do we have a system that matches well for them. Okubo isn't a true striker and we already have a plethora of hybrids (Matsui, Honda, Tamada), and Yano isn't much of anything. The same goes with Komano, sure he's a very good player but tactically there is little difference between him and Uchida. And what does Konno really add to the side? He's decent in JLeague, but really? That's the best Okada could come up with?

I also keep bringing up the lack of caps for Iwamasa and Morimoto to highlight just how under-prepared Okada is for this. I mean, really, what has he been doing for the past couple of years ??

Last season was the first in awhile that Japanese player finished with the most goals -- and did it from a mediocre side -- and he got 2 chances ?? How many chances have guys like Yano and Okubo had to prove their ineffectualness?
And Ogasawara should be as automatic as a player like Endo on the national team; unless there's some kind of dispute and he's told them he doesn't want to play for the NT ?

All around the team the 2nd level of players are either poor quality compared to what's available or haven't done much with the NT. And that will effect the team in some way.

I can't buy that Eto'o would skin anybody just because they're Japanese... or that Agger will take the ball away regardless of which player has it.
To me, that just sounds like a copout.

 

Morten Olsen in quotes and so on has said Agger will play CB for Denmark.
Ogasawara is a negative influence on the squad which is why he isn't and shouldn't have been included.

Abe and Konno are the midfielders/backs for : playing with 10 men when Tulio punches Bendtner or if we're trying to hold 0-0 against Netherlands

What has Okada done for the last players...Okada has picked 10 different CB's and 21 different strikers. Before Okubo went to Wolfsburg and before Okazaki started impressing, Okubo, Tamada and Tatsuya Tanaka were the best we had. Okada has adapted. It was wise to wait before using Morimoto.

On Komano, what's wrong with having a side-back that has been in the NT setup a long time and similar to Uchida. Nothing wrong with a mere replacement. He knows the tactics just as well as uchida and can play either side.

 

Right, I was speaking about his role at Liverpool... he didn't impress much at CB.

Are we still relying on the age-old Troussier material for this?

Exactly; they have no purpose.

So your great praise is that Okada tried 21 different strikers and chose 3 of the worst ? If Okada had the ability to adapt we wouldn't still see Tamada and Okubo in the side.
I never commented on waiting to call up Morimoto -- I commented on why he hasn't been called up since October. Care to address that instead of twisting it into something I didn't ask about.

Nothing necessarily, but it's just another player who can't add anything to what's already there.

Having a few of these issues is inevitable -- I could deal with Kawaguchi and Komano alone. Or just Tamada.
However, Okada's 23-man selection is riddled with questions, anomalies, and substandard players. Take away the best XI and it'd be easy to assemble a JLeague team that's better than what's left over.

 

Okada is also the one who made the decision to play Okazaki. Okazaki may be a better striker than Sato but Sato is a far better finisher. I don't see you complaining about that.

Agger was not good at center back? I have to disagree there. I don't know if you saw the games or not but Eto'o was not shut down at the African Cup. If he was, Cameroon would have went home after 3 games.

If you can accept the 2 Nakas and Endo because they've been in the set up for so long, why can't you accept the likes of Okubo and Konno. Those 3 haven't done any more starting with the Venezuela game than Okubo and Konno. Don't worry about Honda, he'll be starting every game. Yes, De Jong should have been sent off but he will be doing the same thing at the World Cup and he will get away with it again and our players will be scared as ususal, whether it be Tamada or Kagawa.

Yano and Okubo doesn't match our system? Are you serious? Okada's main tactic is to have high pressure from every single aspect of the pitch. Yano and Okubo give you that. Maeda, will not. There is a huge difference between Uchida and Komano in that Komano is a better defender. He is also a better defender and a crosser than Nagatomo. It's just that Uchida and Nagatomo are faster and have energy so it helps with the high pressure. As for Konno, I don't have an answer for you.

I agree that Iwamasa and Morimoto should have been given more opportunities but at least for Morimoto, he was either injured or didn't want to play for the national team until recently. As for Iwamasa, he was dreadful against Korea. It may be unfair for him to say go out there on your 2nd cap in a game with a man down but the fact is, he was horrible. You may say Nakazawa was just as bad that game and I would agree with you but if I had to choose between a player with loads of caps who has played well before or a player with 2(3?) caps that never played well at this level, I would choose the former even if the latter is the better player. It may be unfair, but life is unfair and new players have to take their chances. This is the same with Maeda. His performance vs Ghana was one of the worst performance I've ever seen from a player wearing the blue shirt. He looked completely out of depth. Once again, it may seem unfair but he has to take his chances. Okubo and Tamada have. That is why more than one coach have chosen them. The only position Ogasawara can play on Okada's team is Endo's position. The same can be said of Ono so one of them should have been of the bench but they both are not happy on the bench. When the team is together for 50 days, you cannot take a player that disrupts the atomphere.

You don't take your best 23 individual players. You take the 23 players who make the best team.

I'm not saying Eto'o will skin anybody just because they're Japanese. Eto'o will skin Vidic at least 1 in 4. Whether its Iwamasa or Nakazawa, Eto'o will burn them both. When this is bound to happen, you need a player that has the best understandng with the rest of the team so they can help you. That player is Nakazawa. You may say if Iwamasa played 20 times with Tulio, he'll have better understanding with Tulio than Nakazawa would with Tulio and I would agree with you. But read what I wrote above about not taking thier chances when its given.

 

Anyway, then what ? We're gonna die in South Africa ? So let's do this and we can talk about it later. I can understand your position Scotch17, and your arguments are legitimate but now it's just depressing. Wait until the WC ends before suing Okada. This is meant to be a great event and I'm just starting feeling depressive .

Tomorrow I already know some guys will be scoring in Nabisco Cup and everybody will complain (and maybe me the first) about why they were not taken by Okada, I'm just gonna prepare for that ...

 

i'm saying its good for japan that agger will not play LB as you mentioned he was below his best at CB.

If I recall, Troussier wanted Ogasawara to start and have Nakamura dropped. I'm relying on the fact that the second he was called up, he decided he was king-sh!t and started saying in interviews that he disagreed with the managers tactics and in interviews did not say one word that would have made any of the team feel like having him there. What does he have that Endo or Kengo don't have that is SOOO vital to our success. He is too similar and albeit a great player, Endo and Kengo are a much better influence on the side.

Abe firstly has been in great form for Urawa from parts of what i've seen. I don't get why you think in a mostly attack-minded midfield that we have in the squad its bad to have two defensive minded players in Abe or Konno who CAN fill in a number of positions if things (injuries) turn sour.

Okay Okubo I agree it was a horrible choice and I shudder at the thought of him playing AT ALL in the group stage, but I think Tamada is useful to the team. Like you said however, anomalies like this do happen.
I'd rather Okubo get picked as 4th striker rather than for example 2006 when Zico not picking Matsui who probably should've started in Germany.

To answer the question, Morimoto WAS called up for the Bahrain game and was a substitute later in the game for Matsui. the only fifa matchday since Yes he infact has 3 caps for the NT. Think back its unrealistic to think he should be a player with 20 caps by now he just wasn't ready that long ago. He would have 4 or 5 caps but he was injured before the Netherlands tour.

You think that having a side-back who is similar to the starting side-back and just as experienced in the tactics is bad for the team. If I were a manager I wouldn't want to have to adapt tactics every time some player gets injured if its working. If Uchida were injured I'd be happy to think that Komano can get in there an play a similar style of game without too much alteration of tactics to accomodate this. And besides, if he wants to change the tactics of side-backs, he can use Abe or Konno.

As I read that squad the only players not deserving of a place to me are Yano and Okubo. I have no problem with who Okada puts as 3rd keeper cause they're not going to see the pitch and it may pay off as a good move to have Kawaguchi in a leadership role. As I recall many people here had a problem with Nakazawa as captain for example his attitude against Ghana seemed less than a usual captain should.

Komano is a good pick I don't understand why all of a sudden people seem to think he doesn't deserve a place without shouting about it before. Frankly his place in the team is not really a controversy or question. He deserves his place in the team as much as the next player. Who would you put in Komano's place then?

 

I don't follow J-League very closely, but right off the bat I can think of a offensive line-up like this one:

------------- Maeda --------------------

-------------------------Sato ----------

Kagawa -- Ishikawa -- Hashimoto -- Tanaka

Not sure if it would be a functional one, but at least won't have problems with scoring goals. Seriously, I'm a bit puzzled by why Maeda was left out in the final 23. I see a lot of similarities between him and Lee Dong-guk. Not only were they last season's leading goal scorers of their respective leagues, I also see similarities in their style of play as well. Their style are similar in ways how they have good sense of positioning inside the box and both good in the air. I would describe them as 'standing striker' where they live off from teammate support and make most out of it. This is the reason why at times, I would like to see Lee Dong-guk pair up with Lee Keun-ho. Just like LKH helps Maeda out, I think LDG would do well paring up with LKH. Anyways, it's a real shame that such talented player like Maeda is left out of the squad...

 

I am complaining. Sato isn't even in the side...

They nearly did go home after 3 matches. They got beat by Gabon and Egypt... 1-0 and 3-1, no Eto'o scoring. Drew Tunisia 2-2, and beat Zambia 3-2.
Hardly seems the issue it's made out to be. Eto'o is class... but he's human at the end of the day.

Because Okubo and Konno haven't contributed anything.
I don't think Kagawa would be scared.

If Okada really goes for that strategy he used against Netherlands in the WC... we are already screwed. Besides which, if that's really his goal why would you play those 3 numpties? There's midfielders that can do the job better than all of 3 of them.

I don't see Komano as a better defender -- maybe slightly better with positional awareness, but he's been caught out many times as well.
In a game against Netherlands, where the sideback needs to know how to defend very well, I would hesitate to play either of them.
Offensively, they are both better than Nagatomo. And probably have more talent than Nagatomo. But on the international level where a sideback isn't just a poor man's winger (like it is in JLeague)... Nagatomo is better than both of them. Any given day.
To be honest with you, Nagatomo and Hasebe are the 1st two names on my team sheet for Japan in any match right now. Those two really do all the work that allows the Endos, Nakas, Hondas, Matsuis, etc. to do their thing. And at the same time contribute creatively to the side and keep possession well.

All the more reason to give him more caps.
We all had a pretty damn good idea that Iwamasa and Morimoto were coming... so if he played like crap, why not play him a few more.
If you rate Iwamasa, as I do, you're more likely to put that down to inexperience and nerves. I think Okada rates Iwamasa the same way. The way to solve that issue is to give him more experience.
Instead, now he's going to the World Cup with no more experience and probably even more nervy.

Nakazawa could well cost us points at the World Cup.
He's one of my favorite players, but unless something happens he is just out there running through the motions.

His performance was no worse than the crap we've seen umpteen times from Okubo and Tamada... don't even get me started on Yano.
He also looked the part against Scotland to me. He failed to score, but he was in the right places at the right time.

I don't think I brought Ono up ?
Anyway, exactly. Oga would be Endo's backup. Instead, if Endo collapses or has another bout of HepC... we're left with the likes of Abe. Just Effin Great.
Do we have proof he's not happy? Or this just the same Troussier stuff??
Of course it bears noting that, had Ogasawara played a few more matches, Endo may not be in the state he currently is either.

It fails either way you want to look at it.
Outside of Honda, Kawashima, Komano, and maybe Kengo, I don't see players in selection that can step in and do the job.
And that's a pity, because we know there are plenty who could.

Yet it's only Nakazawa because Okada has shit for balls... all those chances he could've given Iwamasa more experience instead he gave to guys like Takagi and Terada.

It's a depressing thread.
That's why we're not doing this in the NT thread itself.

And yet we're still bringing 3 forwards who don't score goals.
It's not much of an advantage if you can't actually press it.

Nothing in particular that Endo doesn't. I think Kengo is too lightweight to play CM in the World Cup. I would play him as a backup to Endo... though, given Endos form, I'm not even sure of that.
I never suggested kicking Endo or Kengo off the team either.
I suggested booting a player like Abe off.

Because they're jack-of-all-trades and yet not-good-enough-at-any position to be there.

We've taken 5 strikers... and yet here is how I see it...
Okazaki -- great
Morimoto -- a lot of questions about his form, fitness, state of mind, ability to gel with team, and ability to interact on a creative footballing level given inexperience
Tamada -- hard worker, but isn't likely to score
Okubo -- why ?
Yano -- why ?

So we have 1 guy who can score goals. 5 strikers, and only 1 of them is reliably going to score anything. Do you see why I think this is like Sven's England debacle yet. He only took 4 strikers... 2 with injuries, a youngster he refused to play, and Crouch.
It strikes me as about the same level of thoughtfulness.

Of course, had Okada not taken so many useless strikers, there'd be no need for jack-of-all trades

I never said he should have 20.
Which Bahrain game ?? "the" Bahrain game could be any of 50 we've played against them lately. The only time I remembered him getting called up was HK / Scotland / Togo ... and he didn't play for the HK match.

I don't think it's "bad"... in a vacuum a number of his decisions aren't inherently "bad"... but you start adding them all up and I can't ignore it.
The 2nd team is full of players who can't contribute in a strategic sense (ie: change formations or style) or a realistic sense (back to Yano and Abe).

Couldn't we have just taken Kawaguchi as team psych if that's what he wanted?
If you honestly believe the 3rd keeper is an empty position, then why not give it to an outfield player? I'll tell you why, because it's not an empty position.
Insofar as he won't get on the pitch, I would have preferred to see a young keeper get the chance to go and practice.

Komano is a good player. This has nothing to do with his skill to me.... though I think it's hardly anything to be like "Komano should be an automatic". It has to do with the fact that he adds nothing to the side for me. Like almost all the other players Okada selected outside his preferred XI.

 

Okay discuss the other things. but this really is not up for discussion. Its an objective truth that Morimoto was subbed on for matsui in the 67th minute on March 3 against Bahrain when we last had the availability of the europe based players.

http://www.jfa.or.jp/eng/topics/2010/63.html

So that's 3 caps. Then for the South Africa and Netherlands tours he was injured. Before that I don't think he really was ready.

 

Thanks! I didn't realize that one.
It does help some that at least he was called up and practiced in addition to some game time. Obviously I didn't catch that game (I've kind of started spacing out Bahrain and HK matches...) how'd he do ?