What happened to interest in the Rhinos

Discussion in 'Rochester Rhinos' started by Revolt, Aug 2, 2010.

  1. WhiteStar Warriors

    Mar 25, 2007
    St.Pete/Krakow
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    How old is the Rochester franchise compared to NASL franchises? A drop from 10,000 to 5,000 is significant.

    That is easily the Rhinos least attended home opener in their 15 year existence.
    201
    0: 1-1 tie with Carolina (7,142 fans). 2009: 1-0 loss Montreal (10,137).
     
  2. brentgoulet

    brentgoulet Member+

    Oct 12, 2005
    PuertoPlata, DomRep
    The last win in a home opener was already in 2004

    maybe that is the reason most fans don't believe in home openers anymore
     
  3. RobtheAggie

    RobtheAggie Member+

    Sep 10, 2001
    Middle Georgia
    Club:
    Rochester Rhinos
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That is the thing that is amazing to me. As poor as the Rhinos have been run, with all of the change in players on the field, they still managed to draw almost 6k.
     
  4. brentgoulet

    brentgoulet Member+

    Oct 12, 2005
    PuertoPlata, DomRep
    6 K for a third division game is still a good result

    In most parts of Europe, teams are happy to have 1 or 2 K
     
  5. Jossed

    Jossed Member+

    Apr 23, 2011
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    It might be out of habit. The Rhinos drew over 9,000 for 12 straight years. So it is going to take a while to kill the market. But the last two years in D2 they averaged about 6,500. They clearly are going to drop from that given they drew under 6,000 for their home opener. The question is how far does it drop? Are we going to see some 3,000 crowds there?

    And going D3 is only one part of it. Since attendance had been falling the past few years in D2. It's more poor ownership, the PAETEC Park fiasco, and the fact that they were so close to MLS and didn't make it. Rochester was suppose to be Portland, Seattle, and Vancouver. Now there is a sense of doom about the club.

    That said, every NASL team, other than the MLS bound Impact, would love their attendance.
     
  6. TheHun

    TheHun Member

    May 5, 2005
    One thing the attendance proves is that Rochester fans still like their soccer. Perhaps the proper pressure to oust the current ownership (fan ownership by shares ?) can turn things around.

    Rochester fans = cheers. Rochester ownership = jeers.
     
  7. Smoke & Mirrors

    Jul 18, 2010
    Club:
    Ft Lauderdale Strikers
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    All it proves is that D2 is where Rochester really should be. You think they're outdrawing some D2 teams by comparison, just take a look at what they and Orlando are doing in comparison to the rest of the league they're in currently. These two franchises belong in D2.
     
  8. brentgoulet

    brentgoulet Member+

    Oct 12, 2005
    PuertoPlata, DomRep
    I totally agree
     
  9. WhiteStar Warriors

    Mar 25, 2007
    St.Pete/Krakow
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Where is soccersam and his assclowns that called USL the only true league under MLS? How's the international division doing.....:rolleyes:

    I’m glad Tampa got out of USL, they knew Holt and company were snakeoil salesmen.
     
  10. CCSUltra

    CCSUltra Member+

    Nov 18, 2008
    Cleveland
    Club:
    Hertha BSC Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Why? How do they benefit from being in D2? All D2 means is increased costs and losing more money.

    Until D2 becomes more cost effective, there is no real incentive to be in D2.
     
  11. SoccerPrime

    SoccerPrime Moderator
    Staff Member

    All of them
    Apr 14, 2003
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Maybe the NASL franchise fees are more, I don't know. But I am guessing a trip for Rochester to LA and Antigua will cost more than one trip to Edmonton and one to Tampa.

    Where is all the other NASL fees (hence "costing more") coming from?
     
  12. Hax

    Hax BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 1, 2000
    Unfortunately, I agree. The decreasing attendance isn't going to be helped by the team I saw play Harrisburg last night. They weren't creative nor did they create much until the final few minutes of a tight contest. This isn't a team that's going to draw crowds based on their style of play. I think very highly of the Rochester franchise, the Rhinos have been one of the crown jewels of minor league soccer in America, but one gets the sense that this team needs something to break the downward spiral. Don't get me wrong, the facility is great and those attendance marks would be great for most franchises, but considering where it was, this is a sad tale for soccer fans in the US.
     
  13. Jossed

    Jossed Member+

    Apr 23, 2011
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    I don't think being in NASL/D2 would matter. The Rhinos attendance was dropping when they were in D2. They went from 10,000 in 2006 to 6,500 in 2009. The market is the problem. The WNY Flash, who have a bigger buzz in the area than the Rhinos, have the best female player on earth and draw about 1,500. USL acolyte Jeff Di Veronica predicted in his blog they would get over 6,000.

    PAETEC Park was probably the turning point. It was only built to get the Rhinos into MLS and was rushed. Its construction had numerous problems. It took longer and cost a lot more than they planned even with state aid. So they were left with a 13,700(with expansion to 20,000) stadium they could only half fill and no MLS to make it worth anything. It shocked no one when the Rhinos defaulted on their stadium agreement two years after it opened. It has been downhill since then for the club.
     
  14. Smoke & Mirrors

    Jul 18, 2010
    Club:
    Ft Lauderdale Strikers
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Don't know about Rochester, but how do you figure Orlando raises its overall costs by moving to NASL? They would pick up two in-state away matches. Atlanta isn't much further away either. You'd still be looking at a trip into Puerto Rico to play the Islanders, but at least you know they'll not be dropping out of the league anytime soon. Edmonton is a decent hike as well, but certainly not further than LA. Considering where Orlando is located, I don't think their overall travel costs would be all that different from what they would have budgeted for this year.

    Now Rochester, I don't know. They are kind of an outlier on the USL map, so would they really be that much more of one in NASL? And you can't tell me there isn't a marketing factor when it comes to incoming opponents. Hard core supporters will be there for games no matter who they play. But I think we can all agree that the difference maker economics wise is the casual fans. Those are the ones you have to pull in, and to some degree try to get more interested. Does the casual fan who is considering going to a game in any way swayed by the difference between Antigua Barricudas or Fort Lauderdale Strikers? LA Blues or Tampa Bay Rowdies. I don't know. My money says it matters to some degree with casual fans. But who knows.

    Look, Charleston is a great example of a team that self-relegated and found the right balance between being at the lower level and reducing their costs to get a formula that works for them. At least I assume it does, as I'm not their accountant. LOL But that doesn't mean the situation would be exactly the same for Rochester, Orlando, Richmond, or whoever else. So far does it look like Dayton was smart to move up to D3? Does it look like LA's costs are being justified by that 696 home opener attendance total? And they're playing musical stadiums for their home games, we all know that never works well, so how can you expect a significant enough increase to justify them starting in D3 when all circumstances seem to have pointed to PDL being the smart choice for 2011?

    Plus, at the end of the day, there is one simple benefit you are overlooking - a stable league. Will NASL be stable? Beats me. I think they're doing the right things for it to be stable if stability is possible at D2 at this point in North America. NASL is gambling that it is, and I'm glad for it. Can you look at the track record of USL, right through yesterday, and say you have faith in their stability?

    I think Clark was afraid the NASL wouldn't get sanctioned and let USL brass convince him it was safer to join them. No D3 standards, more teams (never mind how precarious some were, we can afford to lose a few if they don't pan out), and they probably sold him on less travel expenses before finding out about the International Division. My guess is he played it safe. Maybe he took the lesser of two evils as he saw them at the time. I think we are seeing things work out differently though, and if he has even half a brain, he has to at least be considering a change of heart, especially if the NASL has a successful season.
     
  15. brentgoulet

    brentgoulet Member+

    Oct 12, 2005
    PuertoPlata, DomRep
    +1, plus the fact that former A-League / USL 1 teams like Charleston, Richmond, Charlotte, Pittsburg were going to be in USL pro
     
  16. buzz99

    buzz99 Member

    Mar 29, 2007
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    There is a major cost differential between NASL and USL Pro. The leap from PDL to USL is modest in terms of ooperating cost vs the next level NASL and ultimately MLS. That's why Rochester and Orlando (Austin) moved down. Yes, it is costly to fly from LA to Antigua, but the NASL is a significanlty more "professional" model. That's not to say USL teams can't compete with NASL sides, because they can, but the whole NASL program is different. Overall, the teams are better and deeper. As such, the pay scale is significantly higher. Vancouver and Portland moved up to MLS and Montreal is next. They were extremely competitive teams and operating organizations that forced other teams to unsuccessfully overstep their bounds (such as St Louis and Baltimore). Coaches and assistants are higher level and command higher pay.

    Rochester is not the same team it was last year despite picking up Tony Donatelli and is reflected in their dwindling attendance. Orlando exited Austin for a new market and stadium in hopes of building an organization that may well reach MLS, however they have a long way to go.

    Last year, several NASL teams were mismanaged and floundered financially. Tampa has a strong model in place and shaky Miami team now successfully entrenched in Ft. lauderdale. Edmonton also appears strong - NASL is only top league Canadian teams haver to play in, otherwise it's glorified PDL competition.

    Owners in NASL now required to have deep (really deep) pockets and expansion, though needed, is being handled more judiciously than USL. There are significant stadium requirements and travel requirements set by NASL that exceeds the USL (Holiday Inn Express and pizza after the game vs. Mariott Courtyards, player per diems, and team meals). The NASL teams have full scale training and medical staff with more significant operations (sales, marketing, advertising, operations, uniforms/kits, etc.) to support. Players sign multi-year agreements and are paid salary full 12 months (e.g., $24,000) rather than prorated 6 months ($12,000) many USL teams pay. NASL teams may have a number of players in the $35 - $50k range vs. $16k - $30k in USL. The NASL snaps up (before USL) high MLS draft picks or released players with higher pay and opportunity to move back to MLS. Teams are importing higher priced internationals.

    Despite being largely successful USL franchises, Charlotte, Harrisburg, Wilmington, Pittsburgh would have difficult times staying afloat in NASL, even with better than average (for them/USL) attendance.
     
  17. SoccerPrime

    SoccerPrime Moderator
    Staff Member

    All of them
    Apr 14, 2003
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Rochester doesn't have to bulk up its ownership value to meet NASL reqs. The stadium is as good if not better than most in North America. So does Rochester now pay their players USL level wages and have no medical staff?
     
  18. Call me Ralph.

    Call me Ralph. New Member

    Aug 27, 2008
    New England
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    All excellent points, but, Orlando and Rochester certainly do have the money and ambitions to play at the NASL, USSF D2 level. IMO it hurts Orlando's and Rochester's long term viability if they are going to be playing against much poorer, less ambitious teams at the USL Pro D3 level. It might not be noticeable in the short run, but it will in the long run, IMO. Orlando and Rochester belong in NASL because they fit the USSF D2 model; the other teams in USL Pro don't fit the D2 model, so your points do apply to them. Your points don't apply to Orlando and Rochester, unless they have decided that competing against the likes of Wilmington or Richmond really do meet their long term ambitions. I'm guessing that they don't. But what do I know. We'll see.
     
  19. Smoke & Mirrors

    Jul 18, 2010
    Club:
    Ft Lauderdale Strikers
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    I like a lot of Buzz's points. Those who would love to continue to suggest there is no real difference beetween USL and NASL need just reference his post. however, that said, I do agree with Ralph concerning Orlando for sure, and to some extent Rochester as well.

    Rawlins moved his team from Austin to Orlando, took on bigger pocketed investors, kept his coaching staff and a lot of his D2 players, and in short order announced his intentions to pursue an MLS bid. Orlando is not a D3 organization, and probably shouldn't be playing there. They could easily thrive at the NASL level, particularly if they continue to draw 7,000+ fans. It's been suggested to me that Rawlins never for a second had any intentions of joining the NASL. That might very well have been true at the time. But when you're in a group and you're standing head and shoulders above the rest of the crowd, what is the natural inclination? To slouch down and become just another face in the crowd? Or climb up and away to others you're on more equal footing with?

    Clark is in a different position with his team. As I've said before, I think fear drive his decision. I think he wanted to make the safe choice and that's what he did dropping down to D3. Did it hurt his team? So far it seems so. They've lost most of their key players from the team that finished atop the D2 standings last year. Is this salary related due to the drop? Their home opener attendance was less than their season average from last year. Does that spell doom already? Of course not, but it would seem to portend the continuing of a trend that has seen their attendance on a downward slide since 2006. By all accounts I've read, they are playing a very uninteresting, conservative brand of soccer so far, and it has not proved very successful.

    While I think Rochester would still meet the USSF standards for D2, what you see above are the stories of two franchises that seem headed in opposite directions. We certainly don't know what the future holds for these clubs, but something tells me it's going to be something different then most would think.
     
  20. RobtheAggie

    RobtheAggie Member+

    Sep 10, 2001
    Middle Georgia
    Club:
    Rochester Rhinos
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    In case you were not aware, the three PR teams are no longer in the league. There is no longer an international division.
     
  21. aetraxx7

    aetraxx7 Member+

    Jun 25, 2005
    Des Moines, IA
    Club:
    Des Moines Menace
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Whoa! When did that happen and do you have a link?
    Edit: I saw the PR Experiment thread. What a joke
     
  22. drew_VT_6

    drew_VT_6 Member

    Feb 22, 2000
    Orange County, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's already noticeable. Look at the gate's for Rochester's first 2 games. 5500 and 4100 (really closer to 2000 says anyone who was at the game) - the lowest attended home opener since 1996 and the lowest attended regular season game ever. The inter-league shenanigans haven't helped, but the fact that the Rhinos have evidently given up all ambitions is killing them at the gate. And they haven't made any moves (big name player signing, big name exhibitions) to show that they still do have ambitions to be relevant on a national level.
     
  23. drew_VT_6

    drew_VT_6 Member

    Feb 22, 2000
    Orange County, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There is incentive and I'm pretty certain you see it at the gate this year. The Rhinos symbolically ran up the white flag on being relevant on a national level. They'd been fighting off that perception the past few years, but taking their own step to demote themselves was the end of the rope locally. Now they wonder why no one prioritizes their entertainment offering over the other minor league sports and other kiddy carnival offerings available around town throughout the "snow-free" months.
     
  24. drew_VT_6

    drew_VT_6 Member

    Feb 22, 2000
    Orange County, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    But we're not comparing to Europe. We need to compare to AAA and AA baseball or Minor League Hockey - if we really want to compete for entertainment dollars and maintain long term top-down viability of the sport in this country.

    I honestly think the best option for many of these USL and NASL and PDL/NPSL teams would be to sign development deals with MLS teams. Then like RSL-Academy in Phoenix MLS teams would gain to grow their "home-grown" region and they'd gain a competitive venue for developmental players to play. The USL/NASL and lower level leagues gain relevance for their teams by bringing in the future stars with a legitimate ladder to the next level. It'd also force these lower level teams into more professional operations to meet standards similar to what you see in restaurant franchises.
     
  25. brentgoulet

    brentgoulet Member+

    Oct 12, 2005
    PuertoPlata, DomRep
    they just became a waterpolo club,

    and they were held to 1-1 by 10 Wilmington swimmers
     

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