What Could Have Been...

Discussion in 'USA Men' started by HartwickFan, Jun 27, 2017.

  1. HartwickFan

    HartwickFan Member

    Jul 31, 1999
    Climax, MI
    Club:
    VfR Wormatia 08 Worms
    Nat'l Team:
    Tuvalu
    What if John O'Brien and Stu Holden had bodies that could withstand the rigors of playing professional soccer?

    And what if Charlie Davies had not made that fateful decision to break curfew and get into a car with a drunk driver back in 2009?

    Those guys were three of the most talented players ever to wear a USMNT jersey. It saddens me to think what could have been... :cry:
     
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  2. dlokteff

    dlokteff Member+

    Jan 22, 2002
    San Francisco, CA
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  3. sXeWesley

    sXeWesley Member+

    Jun 18, 2007
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Davies was a tragedy, but he was never a transcendent talent and we had more depth at forward than the position of the other 2 guys.

    Holden was heartbreaking, on a path to be a legend and just the player we needed at the position we needed and could potentially have totally altered the course of the USMNT.

    John O'brien is a wound that will never heal for me. Oozed a class and technical ability I don't even see in Pulisic, or Reyna, or whomever the distant #2 would be in that regard. The touch, the calm on the ball, the vision... god damnit....:cry:
     
  4. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Its John O'Brien for me, but I do think a bit of nostalgia has taken hold amongst a lot of fans with regards to this player.

    John O'Brien played 107 games as a professional soccer player in the club game. That's appearances, not starts. Just as a point of comparison, 21-year old Kellyn Acosta is currently at 114.

    He basically had 1.5 good years in his career that happened to coincide with the 2002 World Cup. The 2001-2002 season at Ajax was the only season in which he played 20 league games, and not all of those were starts. Out of his 107 games total, 34 were in that one season. About a third.................................

    Here's gonna be a tough question for John O'Brien lovers. How many assists did John O'Brien have for the USMNT?

    The answer is going to startle folks........................................

    upload_2017-7-6_14-53-18.jpeg

    He had fewer caps than Heath Pearce. He only had three career USMNT goals, and I bet most fans can name them.

    He's sort of an example of how important the World Cup can be to the legacies of players. Play really well at a World Cup, and you're a legend regardless of what you actually did the rest of the time. But he only played well in that one World Cup. Was an alternate in 98, and was essentially a non-factor in 06 (probably shouldn't have been selected).

    By the way...................John O'Brien still hasn't turned 40. If he was active, he'd be the oldest active player in MLS. But not by a lot. He's not that much older than Tim Howard and Andrea Pirlo. He's been out of the game so long that folks assume that he must be 45 now.

    Another guy in that category. Eddie Gaven is still only 30 years old. That's hard to believe.
     

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  5. neems

    neems Member+

    Liverpool FC
    United States
    Apr 14, 2009
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Sort of harsh to blame Holden's body for not withstanding the rigors of the sport. He was essentially sent down the tragic path by Johnny Evans then finished off by De Jong. I feel the most gutted for him because he had the caliber to be a top player and performed well in the few premier league appearances he had.

    I'm happy that those goofy USMNT blog posts got him comfortable enough to dominate the play by play game and not sound like the goofballs Twellman/Lalas.
     
  6. HartwickFan

    HartwickFan Member

    Jul 31, 1999
    Climax, MI
    Club:
    VfR Wormatia 08 Worms
    Nat'l Team:
    Tuvalu
    Well, even after the Evans and DeJong hatchet jobs, he tore his ACL in 2013, and he had knee surgery again in 2014.

    And he had more than just a few premier league appearances -- he was voted Bolton's Player of the Year in 2011.
     
  7. HartwickFan

    HartwickFan Member

    Jul 31, 1999
    Climax, MI
    Club:
    VfR Wormatia 08 Worms
    Nat'l Team:
    Tuvalu
    Davies wasn't the most skilled forward, but I thought his athleticism was exceptional and made him a dangerous striker. His speed really was world-class. If memory serves, he was at his best in the Confederations Cup back in '09.

    [​IMG]
     
  8. Brandinho

    Brandinho Member

    None
    United States
    Feb 22, 2007
    New Jersey
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Thats Ricardo Clark
     
  9. HartwickFan

    HartwickFan Member

    Jul 31, 1999
    Climax, MI
    Club:
    VfR Wormatia 08 Worms
    Nat'l Team:
    Tuvalu

    LOL! I thought Davies was playing awfully deep for a forward at the start of that run! Thanks, Brandinho. :)
     
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  10. Tony in Quakeland

    Jan 27, 2003
    Pleasant Hill, CA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think you are underrating Davies and overrating Holden a bit. Davies was so fast, just a brutal straight ahead finisher. He would have been a difference maker in 2010, forcing defenses to respect him. He was also developing a great understanding with Donovan. I think he would have given us a crack at the semis.

    I loved Holden, and think he would have been very good. But he didn't have O'Brien's skill or LD's athleticism and vision. I think he would have been a quality player, but not at the level you seem to think. Wish to god he had a chance to prove me wrong, however.

    We agree on O'Brien, however, 100%
     
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  11. CU soccer

    CU soccer Member

    Mar 28, 2005
    Panama City Beach
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Stu was a very good player. No doubt. But JOB was the only player I've ever seen on the field for us that made me think LD possibly had an equal in the talent dept.

    Davies was a HUGE blow to our WC 2010 squad. He and LD were just hitting stride together at the Confed Cup in 2009. Extremely dangerous duo.
     
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  12. um_chili

    um_chili Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    Losanjealous
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Maybe I didn't understand the embedded media stuff but how many is it? I'm prepared to be very, *very* startled.

    Obviously the opening goal at WC02; the tying (winning?) goal v. Honduras in the GC 05 semi when we were down 1-0 late; and I don't know. What's the third?
     
  13. HartwickFan

    HartwickFan Member

    Jul 31, 1999
    Climax, MI
    Club:
    VfR Wormatia 08 Worms
    Nat'l Team:
    Tuvalu
    He put one in the back of the net when we beat Barbados 7-0 in a World Cup qualifier in August 2000 at Foxboro (I was there :) ):

     
  14. jond

    jond Member+

    Sep 28, 2010
    Club:
    Levski Sofia
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Davies was and is forever overrated, although he'd have paired well with Jozy.

    Holden's career essentially ending that fateful afternoon in Manchester was a far bigger loss. He had the talent to be a top 5 player of all time in our pool. He'd have gone onto bigger and better things in the UCL and anchored our NT midfield for two cycles.
     
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  15. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    By the way, last I knew John O'Brien was pursuing a doctorate in sports psychology.

    In 2015 he was working a little bit with Kevin Grimes and his staff at Cal Berkeley, but I don't know if he's still doing that.
     
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  16. sXeWesley

    sXeWesley Member+

    Jun 18, 2007
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    As JonD said, I think Davies is vastly overrated, (as is that nothing tournament that no one else cares about that we did well at in 2009 and where he largely made his name) and Holden is WAY underrated.

    Just to put things in perspective here on Holden, he was kicking ass in the premier league and making a name for himself, same league Bradley had just struggled to get anything going at Aston Villa and I am told that Bradley guy is a USMNT super legend, maybe GOAT, definitely top 10, 5, etc. Holden absolutely had ceiling to be better than Bradley, so I say massive loss to the USMNT and far greater loss than Davies.

    We totally agree on O'Brien though.
     
  17. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Personally, I think its Bradley that's under-rated by some. His situation at Villa was just a loan, and its worth noting that the club was an absolute mess during his time there. That was McLeish's tenure, which was a disaster.

    Holden went to Bolton and established himself as a starter RIGHT AWAY, which nobody expected. I can't remember the circumstances there with regards to injuries to other players. I'm a big fan of Holden's, but he only played in a TOTAL of 30 league games for Bolton. And he didn't even start all of those.

    In fact, Stuart Holden only played 157 career games across all leagues and competitions. As a point of comparison Michael Bradley, who isn't yet 30, has played in 367.

    Sometimes I think this is like great musicians. There are musicians that die at 29 like Cobain or Hendrix or Jopin or Morrison or plenty of other examples. All we have to remember is that great work when they were young. We don't see the inevitable stage of growing old, losing focus, going out of style, having the inevitable crap albums during an experimental phase, etc. So people end up thinking Axel Rose is over-rated because we've seen him grow old, fat, and irrelevant.

    Yes, I just sorta compared Michael Bradley to Axel Rose.

    All we have to remember John O'Brien by is about 100 clubs games and 32 caps. Only 32 caps. That's less than Mix Diskerud. That's half of Alejandro Bedoya. And a bunch of those caps he did nothing in. But we remember those World Cup games when he was arguably the best player on the field for the USMNT, leading the USMNT to their best ever modern World Cup performance.

    If John O'brien had played until he was 30 we'd have a bunch of other aspects of his career to point to that weren't so good. Maybe he'd have a Villa-like loan that didn't work out. Maybe he'd go thru a down patch under a coach that preferred other players. Maybe he'd have married a model and lost focus for a while (hello Sacha Kljestan). Its just one of those things..........................all we have is that little splash of greatness to leave us wondering "what if."
     
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  18. skim172

    skim172 Member+

    Feb 20, 2013
    It's fun to speculate "what if", but it can be easy to lose yourself in the speculative fiction. What if we'd gotten that penalty call against Germany in the 2002 WC quarterfinals? What if a serious attempt at MLS had begun before 1996? What if the NFL hadn't experienced a revival in the late 1980's? What if baseball hadn't expanded across the country in the 1950's? What if Naismith hadn't invented basketball in the 1890's and what if the YMCA hadn't been so active in spreading the game across the globe? What if, in the 1920's, the "Soccer Wars" never happened and the first era of American professional soccer was able to survive the Great Depression? And what if, in 1876, the Ivy League decided against adopting the McGill/Rugby Union rules - thus preventing the development of gridiron football and paving the way for association rules to take dominance of the university system?

    And what if in 1776, Parliament decided to let the damned colonies have their representation with taxation, thus keeping the colonies as part of the empire, and we all grew up as British subjects, drinking tea and saluting the Queen and believing monarchy was a legitimate form of modern government? What kind of soccer power would we be now?

    Think about it o_O
     
  19. olephill2

    olephill2 Member+

    Oct 6, 2006
    Club:
    Watford FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Then John O'Brien would have played for England in the 2002 World Cup and led them to the finals! ;)
     
  20. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    He is one of the few Americans to score in the Azteca in a WCQ and was a 23 year old playing in Ligue 1 at the time of the crash.

    It's safe to say,we don't know what he was capable of doing. With his speed,strength,balance and attitude he could have been very good.
     
  21. Curva Nord

    Curva Nord Member

    Mar 29, 2007
    Atlanta, GA
    Club:
    FC Internazionale Milano
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So it that universe, we would have still lost the 2002 WC quarterfinals to Germany. It just would have been on penalties.
     
  22. Jay510

    Jay510 Member+

    Apr 21, 2002
    Gadsden Purchase, AZ
    Club:
    Blackburn Rovers FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Why do people like this video? Just a bunch of pace, with a bad pass at the end.
     

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