West Ham v. The Arsenal, Saturday January 12 2019, 1230 GMT

Discussion in 'Arsenal' started by mebeSajid, Jan 10, 2019.

  1. KozIsCul

    KozIsCul Member+

    Feb 6, 2005
    Ramsey and Ozil are grouped together based on contract status and so on, so we tend to group them together as players. Maybe even Emery is doing this, I don't know. I think it's a mistake.

    As footballers, they are in a much different situation. The way we are playing now, the way the players have responded to adversity, the football need and football role for Ramsey is much clearer than Ozil. The answer for me is pretty simple: play Ramsey, bench Ozil.

    Again, this is strictly on football terms and doesn't have anything to do with contracts or what have you. And, let's also note that thinking in football terms tends to mitigate toward playing one or the other but not both. Even in Wenger's time, they didn't really play well together and finding roles for both of them was a significant tactical problem that we never really solved.
     
  2. casoccerdad47

    casoccerdad47 Member+

    Mar 31, 2006
    Just one note, Aubameyang integrated almost immediately last year, scoring 10 in 13 games. That said, I agree that it takes time for players to adjust to the league.
     
  3. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Rangers
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Karo Viertel
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    It's so annoying Wenger didn't buy someone like auba 5 years earlier
     
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  4. casoccerdad47

    casoccerdad47 Member+

    Mar 31, 2006
    I really don't understand what you're saying. Ozil's strength is his vision, his recognition and movement into space to receive a pass and his recognition of the space his teammates can move into. He is also the best one touch and combination player on the team, which encourages movement among his teammates. If you're talking about his defense, Emery's press requires the center attacking mid to press high, so the wings can track back. In this system, if Ozil doesn't press aggressively enough, he is not compromising the player movement of the whole team.
     
  5. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Rangers
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Karo Viertel
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
  6. crazy150

    crazy150 Member+

    Aug 27, 2006
    North Cuba
    If you guys get a break, I’d recommend watching this match from his Seville days.



    I think you will see many parallels with this arsenal side along with a clear “identity.”

    In this game you will see that yes emery’s plan A is to get behind for the cutbacks. But Emery does typically have plan B’s or parallel plan A’s.

    One is to shift the overloads to opponents weaknesses. He does this in the second half of Villarreal avoiding (coincidentally) Dennis Suarez’s wing. Without miki and bellarin we have been locked on the left. So when opponents have good right sided defenders, that option is less fruitful and no flexibility to switch to right side.

    Another of emery’s plan B is the early aerial cross into the box. We don’t exactly have an aerial threat though so this is easily dealt with by most teams. Nor do we really have a good crosser on the right so see above.

    Another is the deep through ball onto the runners. We’ve seen guen, torreira and xhaka do this all season to generate some good chances. It didn’t work against west ham and some other teams.

    Of course there is also the high pressing counter attack. But when you are thin with injury and in a stretch of 3 games a week, your players can’t press as much.

    All of these are low probability, high reward which is distinct from AW. So if his attacks come off you will see a 0.25 or higher xG chance. If they don’t you will get zero shots. But just because you aren’t shooting doesn’t mean you aren’t attacking.

    Anyway, the game above gave me some perspective along with some psg games so I’m recommending it. As a bonus, you can see denis Suarez play for Villarreal and a José Antonio Reyes come on for 30 mins or so for Seville.
     
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  7. maskito

    maskito Member

    Jan 14, 2006
    Minneapolis
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I do.
     
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  8. casoccerdad47

    casoccerdad47 Member+

    Mar 31, 2006
    #158 casoccerdad47, Jan 14, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2019
    Switching from cutbacks on the left to cutbacks on the right is not a Plan B, it's simply the same tactics on the other side of the field. As far as deep through balls to runners is concerned that can be considered a Plan B when it is to the forwards, but when, as is often the case, it is to the wingbacks/fullbacks it is simply a variation on plan A. Focusing on wing play, with two forwards that aren't necessarily great headers of the ball, can be problematic. A player like Giroud, might be a better fit for Emery's plan A than Lacazette or Aubameyang.

    Wenger's Plan A was intricate passing and combination play near the top of the box, including encouraging his 8 to make runs into the box to overload the defense. When executed with the right players it could be deadly, think of the Wilshere/Giroud goal a few years ago, but it had a tendency to break down the last couple of years. Early in his Arsenal career, this was complemented by flowing counterattacking soccer. Unfortunately, during the last few years there was a reduced emphasis on counterattacking soccer because he didn't have the players to run in behind and his Plan B became crosses to Giroud in the box. These are two very different ways of attacking.

    Honestly, I don't see enough variation in Emery's approach to qualify as a Plan B. When playing from behind late in a game, other than changing players, I haven't seen much variation in Arsenal's approach. Its also with noting that even last year Wenger's Plans A and B produced three more shots per game than Emery's Plan A and "Plan B".
     
  9. banco

    banco Member

    Mar 27, 2010
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    But Suarez is not as good as Banega or Özil in the middle of the pitch and not on the same planet as a wide player as Carrasco. Plus, he's 25, he's not getting any better than he already is.
     
  10. KozIsCul

    KozIsCul Member+

    Feb 6, 2005
    I'm not talking about pressing or tracking back, though those are separate issues. I'm saying he doesn't move off-the-ball with Arsenal in possession either. It's a shame really because he can. He's not the best athlete there ever was in the Premier League but to be honest he's perfectly good enough. It just seems like getting up and down the field takes too much out of him mentally as he's gotten older so he won't do it any more.

    For what Ozil does well, what I call the "magic ball" assist, he is about the best there is. But his style of play is at least a little bit obsolete. In fact, I can't think of another team at our level or better who uses an Ozil-type role, Christian Eriksen maybe, but even he seems to move more and score more than Ozil. Eg, Cesc Fabregas just went from Chelsea to Monaco. Given the goalscoring success of City, Liverpool, Spurs, and Barcelona, the tide is turning to where key to offense at the highest level is player movement, not magic balls.
     
  11. KozIsCul

    KozIsCul Member+

    Feb 6, 2005
    Yeah, but Banega, Ozil and Carrasco all have motivational issues. Suarez wants to be here. He has technical skill on the ball, he's got off the ball movement, he's got wiggle. And he's cheap, at least at 10MM GBP which is a number I've seen thrown around.
     
  12. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I strongly disagree.

    When we see stats that Ozil has some of the highest mileage in the team, people think it's proof that he works hard defensively, but we just don't see it. It's not. It's easy to see just by looking at his heat map and such.

    Ozil works hard offensively.

    When we have the ball, the man is always moving, always finding space so he can receive the ball and make the next pass. He doesn't make runs into the box unless it is a counter-attack, but he is always moving from side to side or dropping deep to pick up the ball.
     
  13. thebigman

    thebigman Member+

    May 25, 2006
    Birmingham
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Emery
     
  14. crazy150

    crazy150 Member+

    Aug 27, 2006
    North Cuba
    Did you watch the Seville match above? Have you watched his psg teams? The Valencia days of David Villa, Juan mata, Jordi Alba, David silva? Emery is no arsene, but his teams can attack and do score goals create chances. There are no triangles on the edge of the box, but his PSG beat Barca 4-0 with 10 sot (lost 7-1 on the return admittedly) and this was pre neymar and mbappe and most of the chances came through the middle, not the wing.

    He hasn’t figured out the defense yet and I agree that’s a problem, but it looked like he was starting to with holding as an anchor. Maybe with Kos gearing up and Héctor back, we will get back on track.

    Also, all the attacking players except 2 were AW’s players. They were brought up or adapted to his system of dominant possession. It will take longer than a few months to get them fully on emery’s philosophy which is near opposite of AW.

    The ozil thing is a huge problem for him. He was a large percentage of AW’s offensive output and to lose him is tough. Time will tell where the responsibility for the situation lies, but unlike Jose, Emery has a pretty good reputation for relationships with players. He dealt with Neymar who took a match off for his birthday party and invited Emery for Christ sake. If Emery is freezing ozil out, there is probably some major situation going on.

    The Ramsey situation is way overblown in my opinion. Ramsey has only not appeared in 6 of our 32 matches. Three of those six were Europa league—2 heavily rotated and the other at Qarabag. Huddersfield he was injured and soton had just come back and was unused sub. The only clear absence was Burnley which was 3 days after he played 90 in the league cup.
     
  15. Romfordray

    Romfordray Member+

    Oct 24, 2011
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Right now Emery is the whipping boy. His teams thrive on overloads and quick counters. The match above and the liverpool game that I posted a while back are prime examples. My issue is this...we press high and work hard, fantastic. Then we get the ball and tumbleweeds.

    Raise your hand if you think Iwobi and Guendouzi RIGHT NOW are world class talents. If you objectively analyze the squad then we are where we should be.
     
  16. wanye_stirrear

    wanye_stirrear Member+

    Sep 19, 2002
    Maryland
    #166 wanye_stirrear, Jan 15, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2019
    I think Guendouzi is playing well fairly consistently, although he has bad games here and there. I can’t think of any other 19 year old who is doing what he is doing right now, and he is doing it in the middle of the field, which is a hard place to play. I am actually shocked by how often he stands out in games.

    Iwobi isn’t a forward, and I doubt that he ever will be world class. However, I have heard others suggest that he really is a midfielder and possibly he could be better in a more natural position. That and his age make me not want to be too hard on him, but I’d be lying if I said that my hopes for him are high.

    I am going to stick with my original thinking that I will reserve judgement of Emery until after he has had a full season. The knives already are out, and some of his decisions have been questionable at best. But seasons have ups and downs, and I can’t make heads and tails of them until I see how they play out. Given the circumstances he came in to managing the team, he deserves at least a full season. Following up Wenger always was going to be a hard task. This team was dysfunctional, was indoctrinated and was full of holes. One should only expect so much so quickly.

    With that said, the suits aren’t doing him any favors with only signing loans this window. I think more than the Ozil debacle, the defensive comedy show, or the seemingly weekly squad formation changes, that might be the fatal move for the season.
     
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  17. The Foo Fighter

    The Foo Fighter Member+

    Mar 15, 2011
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Let's go back to the 4-2-3-1. It's the last time that we truly played with any type of fluidity. Put Ozil at the 10 and play Ramsey wide. He's not fantastic there, but he's at least an option. If not that, give Saka a chance.

    We've been poor and we need to find something to inject a spark of life back into this team.
     
  18. casoccerdad47

    casoccerdad47 Member+

    Mar 31, 2006
    I went back and watched it, but I'm not sure what point you are trying to make with it. What I saw only confirmed the conclusions of the article I linked. For Emery its all about wing play with crosses and cut backs into the box. Virtually the only time they attacked the top of the box, they benefited from an own goal. His attack essentially bypasses attacking center mids, so apparently in Emery's mind Ramsey and Ozil are surplus to requirements.

    He was successful with this at Valencia, Sevilla, and PSG because he had good wing play. At all three clubs he almost certainly had better wings than he has at Arsenal. At PSG he had Neymar and Mbappe, with a striker, in Cavanni, who is good on the ground and in the air. Of course his tactics are going to generate a lot of offense at PSG.

    But an elite coach should adjust his tactics to the personnel he has available, while gradually changing those personnel to players that suite his preferred tactics.

    Finally, teams like City and Liverpool are very good at attacking on flanks, but they are also very good at attacking the top of the box, making them hard to defend. In to many games we are not seeing that variation in the attack at Arsenal.
     
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  19. crazy150

    crazy150 Member+

    Aug 27, 2006
    North Cuba
    I posted it because it illustrates his identity. There were a lot of quick counters. Pressing. High line. No one dwelt in the ball. Decisive passing that either worked or there was counter press. There were early balls into the tall 2nd mid iborra high up the pitch and through balls to feet of Gameiro. Yes, good wing play and good fullback play were the focus. He does not do tiki-taka, triangles aroud the box, horseshoe football or pass the ball into the net. We will never see a Norwich goal from his arsenal side. And if anyone expected those things then they were naive.

    Also his two “wingers” were Konoplyanka whom they got for free and Delhi who was 30 and actually a CM. Good “wing” play doesn’t necessarily require Manés and Sanés.

    At PSG he had dimaria but also played matuidi on the opposite wing until neymar came. A lot of play went through rabiot and Verratti.

    Emery is not elite manager—nor is he paid like one at 6th in the league. He is a solid second tier coach—no more.

    In any case what you saw in this game is what we can expect when he gets it going. Lots of chances for both teams, an open game that’s enjoyable to watch. Could have won by 6 or lost by 4 and anything in between. Is it enough to win the league—almost certainly not. Is it enough to grab a cup or two and sneak into fourth while entertaining us along the way—I think it might be.
     
  20. casoccerdad47

    casoccerdad47 Member+

    Mar 31, 2006
    BTW did you notice that Suarez was playing for Villarreal. I noticed him late and didn't go back to watch his play.
     
  21. crazy150

    crazy150 Member+

    Aug 27, 2006
    North Cuba
    Ya, that was another reason I posted it. Also JAR got their garbage time goal. Suarez has a couple of nice dribbles, two shots from wide angles. Honestly, he seems like a decent player for 15-20m.
     
  22. NorthBank

    NorthBank Member+

    Arsenal; NYRB
    United States
    Mar 29, 2006
    Connecticut
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So who hasn't started a MD thread in a while who wants to step up?
     
  23. SaratogaGooner

    Nov 23, 2009
    Clifton Park NY
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Sorry NorthBank you don't approve of my posts. BTW... where am I wrong? Not going to argue with you or anyone. I can't believe the state of the Club and I'm as frustrated as everybody else. These are not enjoyable days to be an Arsenal fan (we all know that). What's it going to be like when Chelsea are 9 points clear on Sunday and we haven't signed anyone in the transfer? Just like Lee Judge said the other day, it's hard to see anything other than "doom and gloom". I don't even know what to say/think anymore. Yeah, I'm down on the Club and the whole ********ing situation. Its going to get ugly if we lose to Chelsea. I hope Emery has thick skin.
     
  24. crazy150

    crazy150 Member+

    Aug 27, 2006
    North Cuba
    I’m saving up for another unbeaten run. ;)
     
  25. Romfordray

    Romfordray Member+

    Oct 24, 2011
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Thread started.
     

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