PBP: WC 2010 Semi Final - Deutschland gg. Spanien 07.07.2010 [R]

I think they have a better chance too. But they need to learn to overcome difficulties, to prevail if they are challenged. Very good games against England and Argentina, but all went right for them there, and the opponents failed to press them really hard for most of the games.

That's the problems German teams have for almost a decade now, NT or clubs in ECs. They go far, play some good games on the way - but if it gets really serious they crumble. Some exceptions, of course (in 2006 Germany fought back against Argentina, no way to argue that - but the games this didn't happen are far more numerous). If they'd really play in "typical German fashion" anymore Germany would have won 2002, maybe 2006, 2008 and 2010 - because then they wouldn't have been paralyzed by Brazil or Spain.

 

I thought against england and argentina, they got their foot on the ball first and took it like a tidal wave until almost half time (which makes this counterattacking team stuff even wierder to me). The other teams then seemed to crumble after a few minutes, and in england's case we know it was true because Klose and co said they felt immediately that they weren't up to it.

The reverse with spain, and we crumbled mentally. But the thing is it's a bit of both here - spain is THAT good, and we also don't have those *really* big game players yet. But I see those qualities in Kroos and Mueller already. Hummels too.

I agree that we didn't have those types of players in the past 8 years. Ballack was never THAT good at that. I always think of guys like sammer or Matthaeus who just didn't give a hoot what happened and played like they owned the pitch. In fact about half the XI in any team when I was growing up were like that.

 

It's the dog days of summer. Slow news days. No team stuff really and people are clutching for anything related to transfer news because that has been slow too.

When it's slow I just stay away from posting. The NSR thread is too confusing to understand if you have been gone for a while.

But I totally agree with you with what's in bold. Also, success breeds bandwagon fans. Many new fans on the site due to the teams success.

Still miles better than a YA, Real, or Arsenal forum

 

I think one of the biggest features missing from this new modern Germany are composure and killer instinct. "Traditional" German teams tended to be very composed and took their chances when they got them. I'm not so sure this group has the mental strength to be dominated all game long by an opponent and then kill them off with the 1 or 2 oportunities that arrise.

 

The problem is, every success Germany ever had was despite the DFB, not because of them. Seriously - if you can get a copy, that's a great book on the history of the German NT (although out of date by now), and if I remember right (I read it 10 years ago) it really shows how out of touch the old men running the show can be (not coaches or players):
[ame="http://www.amazon.de/Fu%C3%9Fball-f%C3%BCr-Millionen-Dietrich-Schulze-Marmeling/dp/3895332747/ref=sr_1_2/279-5002003-2645164?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1278710882&sr=8-2"]Fußball für Millionen: Amazon.de: Dietrich Schulze-Marmeling, Hardy Grüne, Werner Skrentny, Dietrich Schulze- Marmeling: Bücher[/ame]

But the current team does look better than the others post mid-90s, on that I agree for sure.

It ain't that bad, I think . And yeah, of course this is because that's an American forum. My comment wasn't meant to imply they have so many posters because how the forum is run, but the opposite - the problems there come from the huge number of posters, which will always make things difficult, no matter how well a board is run. For the same reason this board here is still much, much better than same of the big German soccer boards, like the kicker one (BS Germany forum also doesn't attract that many casual fans, which was the main reason why many of the regular German posters stayed here).

 

This team is also a lot younger than any team you are comparing them too in the past. When you are young you have to play and win the way we did against Argentina and England.

Sitting back and giving Spain the pitch may have looked good on paper but really did not suit the personality and strength of this team. Composure will come with years of maturity.

For a lot of the guys it was the first international tournament. No shame in getting nervous in the semis against arguably the best team in the world right now.

 

That's not what they tried to do according to Loew and schweini's post match PKs.

They just got overawed. Like "shit, I'm 4 metres away from Iniesta!!!"

I thought that against a not best-team-in-the-world-and-one-of-best-ever type like Argentina, they held their composure all game. Argentina was dominated and couldnt get a proper shot off even when they had most of the ball in the middle of the match.

 

Sure - I think I already said as much in another thread here as well . I'd never, ever say something negative about an off-topic post by some posters (most regulars in NSR for example, or some of the old school Germany forum posters, but they don't post here anymore anyway), as hypocritical as that may be, and I make OT posts myself. But considering BS won't get rid of posters because I don't like their writing style, that would be the next best thing for everyone who wants to read only the thoughtful posts by non-regulars, who are frustrated by the text message style posts and endless funny pictures and leave. I'll stay either way, and won't post much of substance no matter what

 

Well, what exactly are you referring to? The mental discipline? I think that will always be there. However the German philosophy has always been to play intelligent, attractive football with an emphasis on artistic expression, since way before the Bundesliga. The mental toughness is a culturally imposed trait that every generation has. That's why we were able to play well despite lacking talent and that's why our most talented generations were able to succeed, by combining both philosophies. I think the current one is very much talent based but the toughness will never leave the German culture so it's almost embedded, and will shine through with time. In fact it did already. The fact that this young side overcame England, Ghana, Argentina for example and not picking up that many cards, and so forth shows a discipline that is there. Boateng, Khedira, Hoewedes for example have what it takes to become tough tacklers who will be physically imposing, it's only a matter of time.

 

And I agree.

 

In the second leg, Inter was down to ten men in the first half, You definitely needed creative players to open them up as they would definitely sit back to absorb the pressure. Iniesta is the second most creative player in barca and top 5 in the world, Thats why its awkward to think he wouldnt have made a difference, Since he didnt play, we would never have known

Just like we would never know what would have happened if Muller wasnt suspended on Wednesday, Ballack in 2002, Frings in 2006 and Ribery in Madrid 2010

 

I mean not letting the opposition intimidate you, and always being able to fight back, even if it can't always work out. The 1954 final was pretty much the archetypical comeback (underdog AND two goals down And against the best team in the world AND in the WC final... doesn't get any better), and the perfect display of this. Mental toughness is exactly what German teams have been lacking for a long time. If you're up for most of the game, and you aren't challenged for long periods (like against England, they basically gave themselves up after a time) it's easier to look good.

It's not that they finally lost against Spain, it's that they looked as if they didn't have a chance during the game already.

 

I'm more concerned with the way Germany lost rather than Spain itself. I'm not suggesting Germany should have won; infact if there way any team that I would have preferred to beat Germany it would have been Spain because of their quality

I think we didnt give Spain enough trouble and we didnt keep our composure. We simply went in to "Not to Lose" rather than "To Win". When you have this kind of attitude then you'll likely lose very easily. About half time we should have changed our ways in terms of handling the game. Hard tackles, provoking the opposing team, diving (yes I know) or anything to disrupt the rhythm of Spain could have come handy

Spain is clearly the better team with more quality hence you have to rely on other means to fight them. You have to do less football and include good old fashioned roughness and blunt force to get your win. When you play in a tournament like this, you are likely to face opponents that are better than you. You have to find a way around them or go down fighting till the last minute. I respect the German team and their accomplishments in this World Cup but in the game with Spain I saw fear and hesitation

PS: Manuel Neuer is the most likely candidate to have that kind of eccentric character in future

 

There's only so much mental toughness you can have playing against a side like Spain that will deny you the ball and pressure you from the getgo. To beat Spain I think one needs both and I don't want to beat a dead horse but this German side will gain that in due time. be hopeful maaaan!

 

This is how I see our team in this WC so far:

3 great games (against Australia, Argentina and England, during which we caught some lucky breaks which could have changed the momentum and hence the result of the game: the disallowed goal the English scored for example)

1 good/solid game (against Serbia, despite the loss)

2 quite terrible games (against Ghana and Spain)

Yes I am immensely proud of our team and what they have accomplished and I do think we have a lot of potential in our young players. That said I think we are a bit overrated, certainly not as good as what some people said we are ("played the best football of all countries in the tournament" etc). People were saying we were the best because we did very well against England and Argentina and scored a bunch of goals. Make no mistake those goals we scored were indeed awesome, not taking anything from it, I am just saying had we not scored that many goals against them or had we not won those two games, people would have said that we are just an better-than-average team (kind of like what people said about our team before this WC), everything else remaining the same. I mean what if we happened to lose to England and Argentina, with the same type of game play, execution and everything? What would people have said? What if we lost to Uruguay tomorrow? What will people say? Does a win or loss change how a team is perceived? I guess what I am trying to say is that yes we have had a very good World Cup, but compared to top teams like Spain and Brazil in their current form we still have ways to go in many departments and areas. For one thing I want us to have their consistency, not in terms of result from all the big tournaments (nobody beats us in this regard, ), but overall game-in game-out match performance.

I might get myself into trouble by saying this but, even though I am extremely happy to see that this new German team we have has in many ways sorted of shattered the stereotypes associated with German football with the nicely-executed short passes, flare and seemingly more "technical/talented football" (for lack of a better word, I hope you know what I mean), but to me they somehow have kind of lost some of the qualities that are associated with traditional German football that we love about, such as the unwavering fighting spirit till the 90th minute, ie. mental toughness and physical toughness. Take the game with Spain for example, we were just too timid, lacking the willpower to fight on and our players looked very tired and exhausted. Not to mention we seem to easily get injured or sick these days. Please our NT guys, hit the gym more often, please. We need to be able to at least outrun and outplay our opponents physically and mentally, something that was never a problem before as I recall. I know many of them are just kids (I mean no disrespect by that) and they probably will grow to be tougher both mentally and physically, I sincerely hope they will. Time will tell.

I felt our defense got better toward the end of the tournament with Boateng and Jansen stepping up, Mertesacker also improved. With people like Hummels and Howedes coming down the pipe and I am very content. Yes finding a permanent LB must be on the radar. Our midfield is very solid and will only get better over time I feel, with Schweini, Khedira and Kroos holding the fort. What really concerns me is our lack of prolific strikers and I don't know if and how Klose will be replaced. Kießling??

This team has indeed opened our eyes and won many, many fans around the world. I hope they will continue to build on the platform, talent and new characteristics that they have developed but not forsake those older, traditionally-known qualities that have been the cornerstone of German football. I am really hoping to see Die Mannschaft beating the life out of teams like Spain, Brazil, Argentina etc. with ease and consistently and I will then die a happy man.

In sickness and in health, Germany NT forever~

 

It seems that, independently of how good Spain are or are not, we agree that the German team lacked the right attitude in the game... they have said so themselves, as I'm sure you all must have seen (saying that they lacked the courage to attack, etc.). They seem to agree and have it very clear, so let's hope they manage it now and won't be overowed by anyone now.

 

Absoulutely agree with you. But lets not also forget that Inter have some incredible studs on the backline, lead by Lucio, Maicon, Samuel, and Zanetti. The former two being the best in the world at their positions. Thus, Inters shutdown strategy was more likely to work, given the quality of the players.

I hope now that we will begin to experiment with some new CBs. I think we have a great talent in Jerome Boateng who looks real comfortable on the ball and can pass. He will be playing in the Priemiership for two years before the next tourney roles around, by which time he should be much better than Mertesacker.

Friederich really exceeded my expectations. Thought he played well: good movement, some excellent sliding tackles to save the day, and he always looked composed on the ball. Very good performance by him. Too bad he couldnt play CB for us two or four years ago. Friederich was right when he says that he is a much better CB than right-back.

I also anticipate that we will see Contento soon for the National Team, a very very promising prospect.

 

Their attitudes. And prideful players will say that.

They could have attacked more.

And the way Spain was playing, Spain would have f#cking shredded them.

But of course, prideful fans won't recognize that either......

 

And ofcourse the fans that are in a lovefest with Spain won't recognize the fact that Germany lacked the fighting spirit

 

I doubt Spanish fans are able to recognize anything else aside from Spain's awesomeness...

 

It seems like some of the German fans here are even more into the Spain than the Spanish themselves

 

And people who don't know that I'm not a Spain fan wouldn't make such a comment.

The fact of the matter is Spain was the much better team on the evening.

That's it. You guys can f#cking cry, whine and bitch on about what Germany could or could not have done.

What you should be doing is celebrating this Germany team's massive potential for the future.

Because as well as Spain played, if Germany played half as "scared" and half as "horribly" as Germany fans like to claim, they would have walked out of there 4-0 losers.