It is not my intention to enter into discussion. I would just like to know if anything escapes me that argues that Carrizo was the best goalkeeper of the 20th century as a result of the election of the IFFHS. Unfortunately I have not been able to extract too much information. The sources that I have consulted do not clarify some aspects that interest me. To "please" of Carrizo: * His extraordinary sports longevity: 24 years with River Plate and two more years with Millonarios de Bogotá. Very few players get these records. * His unbeaten record at 42 years of age. * His performance in the Nations Cup with wins over Portugal, Brazil and England and his goal to 0. However, I am surprised that, despite his fame, he had only 20 internationals, divided into 3 stages: 1953-54, 1957-58 and 1963-64. What happened the rest of the years? The Argentine goal was property, sometimes indisputable, of other archers. What were the reasons? Technical decision? Voluntary absence? He never took part in the South American Championship and on the only occasion in which he played a World Championship, he was criticized (as well as his teammates). I insist, I do not say the opposite, because I lack arguments and, of course, I did not see it in order to compare it with others, but, what more merits did it have for the IFFHS and a large part of the press and colleagues to consider it, less, the best Argentine goalkeeper in history? En español: No es mi intención entrar en discusión. Simplemente quisiera saber si se me escapa alguna cosa que argumente que Carrizo fue el mejor portero del siglo XX como resultó de la elección de la IFFHS. Desgraciadamente no he podido extraer demasiada información. Las fuentes que he consultado no me aclaran algunos aspectos que me interesan. A “favor” de Carrizo: Su extraordinaria longevidad deportiva: 24 años con el River Plate y dos años más con Millonarios de Bogotá. Muy pocos futbolistas consiguen estos registros. Su récord de imbatibilidad a los 42 años de edad. Su actuación en la Copa de las Naciones con triunfos sobre Portugal, Brasil e Inglaterra y su portería a 0. Sin embargo me extraña que, a pesar de su fama tuviera solo 20 internacionalidades, repartidas en 3 etapas: 1953-54, 1957-58 y 1963-64. ¿Qué ocurrió el resto de los años? La portería argentina fue propiedad, a veces indiscutible, de otros arqueros. ¿Cuáles fueron los motivos? ¿Decisión técnica? ¿Ausencia voluntaria? Nunca intervino en el Campeonato Sudamericano y en la única ocasión en el que jugó un campeonato Mundial, le llovieron las críticas (al igual que a sus compañeros). Insisto, no digo lo contrario, porque me faltan argumentos y, por supuesto, no lo vi para poder compararlo con otros, pero, ¿qué más méritos tuvo para que la IFFHS y gran parte de la prensa y compañeros de profesión lo considerasen, al menos, el mejor arquero argentino de la historia?
I found this cut in an As Color of 1978 in relation to a survey in "The Graph" about the ideal selection of all time. Carrizo is chosen in second place. If someone can say if this choice was reasonable or not, it would help me to have a more objective and realistic idea about this goalkeeper's worth.
You may enjoy this article of El Gráfico of 1989. It consists of the best goalkeepers of Argentina of all-time with their goal against average in their careers.
Goles magazine in May 1977 conducted this interview with Amadeo Carrizo. He put himself above Gatti and Fillol as more complete and if he would have been young and played in 1977 neither Gatti or Fillol had a chance of being a starter above him. His biggest frustration was World Cup 1958 and his best was the Nations Cup of 1964 when Argentina beat Brazil, Portugal and England, where he kept a clean sheet in all 3 games.
The first question might be whether Amadeo Carrizo was the greatest Argentine goalkeeper. South American posters would be best placed to answer that. However here are a few thoughts. The comprehensive El Gráfico poll of 1966 presented Carrizo as the fifth greatest footballer to appear in the Argentine league since 1891. Among voters who were still playing in 1966, Carrizo was placed first. These are very high positions for a goalkeeper. No other keepers made the overall Top 16. The same publication's 1989 article above on goals per match conceded by keepers in Argentine domestic football showed Fillol in first place among those with a long career. Carrizo is seventh in the table but did play in a higher-scoring era. In Argentinian club football Carrizo has a strong claim to be the leading goalkeeper. As far as Argentina's international goalkeepers are concerned, it is a very different story. During Carrizo's 23 year career with River Plate from 1945 to 1968, Argentina played 164 matches. Carrizo was selected for only 22 of them (not 20 as stated in Wikipedia). There do not appear to be any mitigating circumstances. His debut came as late as 1954, aged 28, when he was picked for two matches on a European tour and substituted both times. He was not chosen again until May 1957. Those preferred to him included Ruglio - "The Lion of Wembley", Musimessi, Rogelio Domínguez and Antonio Roma. Domínguez of Racing Club had established himself as first choice when in 1957 he secured a transfer to Real Madrid, rendering himself ineligible for national duty. This was Carrizo's chance. He made fifteen consecutive international appearances between May 1957 and July 1958. The last three games in the sequence were Argentina's group matches at the 1958 World Cup in Sweden. Defeat by West Germany and a calamitous 6-1 loss to Czechoslovakia sent the Argentines home early. Carrizo conceded soft goals in both matches and was dropped for five years. He returned for a couple of games against Paraguay in 1963, then three matches in a four-team tournament in Brazil the following year that also involved England and Portugal. Argentina won all three games without conceding a goal. It was the high point of Carrizo's international career. However he was about to turn 38 and was never selected again. Antonio Roma, six years younger, soon made the position his own. Among Argentine goalkeepers in international football, Carrizo must be some way down the list. His arrogant assertion, noted above, that Fillol would not have got a game had Carrizo himself been around at the same time is clearly nonsense. The national selectors preferred no fewer than twenty-one goalkeepers to Carrizo during his time at River Plate, and none were likely to have been better than Fillol who played 58 times for his country and won the World Cup. Perhaps the closest to Fillol in terms of international performance was Mérico Tesoriere who earned 37 caps between 1919 and 1925. Penalty-saving specialist Goycochea, with twice as many international appearances as Carrizo, was another to make a significant impact. Sergio Romero's record 96 caps is offset by the fact that he has often been second choice for his various clubs. So where does that leave Carrizo overall? Behind Fillol surely. Whether one places other Argentine keepers ahead of him depends on how far his reputation should outweigh the judgement of the national selectors.
Precisely, at the time I opened this thread because I did not understand very well why Carrizo was so well considered in subsequent polls. I have to admit that diving into the press of the time that I have been able to consult I do not quite find a convincing balance between its objective data and its fame. Something that draws my attention powerfully is how the best Argentine goalkeeper until Fillol's appearance has almost never been the undisputed starter in his national team. Even reading chronicles relating to the River Plate tour of Spain in 1951-52, it does not seem that the chroniclers took his name very much into account. Maybe it was because until then he had never debuted with Argentina. The truth is that I am still quite confused with this matter. It would be interesting to expand the information in relation to this player.
The 6-1 loss to Czechoslovakia at the 1958 World Cup caused a massive fallout. Six of the men who represented Argentina that day never played for their country again. Five of the six also moved clubs not long afterwards, perhaps looking for a new start. Dellacha (age 32) moved to Mexico, Cruz (27) to Brazil, Vairo (28) to Chile. Labruna (39) and Néstor Rossi (33) left River Plate for other clubs in Argentina. Only Ario (25) stayed put at Vélez Sársfield. Carrizo was not picked again by Argentina for five years. He remained at River Plate, and it could be that he was at his peak in his thirties (1957-1964) but that the national selectors wanted to change the 1958 team and look to the future with younger keepers. That might also explain why current players voting in the 1966 poll considered Carrizo the best footballer in the history of the Argentine league. He must have been in top domestic form for a number of recent seasons to receive all those votes - but deemed too old by the national selectors and too closely associated with the failures of the 1958 World Cup. During the 1960s Argentina's national team gradually adopted a more defensive, safety-first approach. Carrizo's frequent daring sorties out of his penalty area would not have suited that strategy.
About Carrizo and argentinian keepers I've some ideas: a) Argentina has been rated as SouthAmerican school for keepers --> Depth b) It was famous, Carrizo's cover in a 1963 El Grafico issue, printed as El Arquero c) Carrizo is highlighted for being a Revolutionary in the art of goalkeeping. d) Also related with the greatest argentine win, until WC'78, the 1964 Cup of Nations. e) In his best years, NT manager was a very conservative trainer. So, my quick conclusion is that Carrizo, being a good keeper, always had hard competition for NT spot, but most important, he had a late prime, starting post WC'1958, maybe some years before, I think his peak years were 1962-64. That peak reached by Carrizo was the highest ever reached by a keeper (in the eyes of argentinian press), not only in performances, but also with innovations.
A good proxy to ratings/prime years in El Grafico's case is the sequence in how many covers Carrizo have? El Grafico covers 1949 - 1 (jul) 1954 - 1 (nov) 1960 - 1 (nov) 1961 - 1 (oct) 1963 - 2 (mar, oct) 1965 - 1 (nov) 1967 - 1 (feb) 1968 - 1 (jul)
The first half dozen pages of this thread from 11 years ago are worth reading again. Plenty of information on goalkeepers from the Americas. https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/the-100-greatest-x-of-all-time-discussion-thread.1245347/
@comme 's original Top 100 goalkeepers, which were being discussed on the link above. https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/the-100-greatest-goalkeepers-of-all-time.1245346/page-5
For @Dearman http://xtraimmortal.blogspot.com/2013/07/Goalkeeper.html http://xtraimmortal.blogspot.com/2014/02/The9x100.html Among the goalkeepers of the American continent: 10. Ubaldo Fillol (Argentina) 12. Ladislao Mazurkiewicz (Uruguay) 17. Gilmar (Brasil) 25. Amadeo Carrizo (Argentina) 29. Jose Luis Chilavert (Paraguay) 41. Emerson Leao (Brasil) 43. Roque Maspoli (Uruguay) 52. Sergio Livingstone (Chile) 53. Claudio Taffarel (Brasil) 56. Antonio Roma (Argentina) 60. Augustin Cejas (Argentina) 64. Americo Tesoriere (Argentina) 66. Hugo Gatti (Argentina) 73. Julio Cesar Soares (Brazil) 77. Manga(Brazil) 78. Rodolfo Rodriguez (Uruguay) 89. Antonio Carbajal (Mexico)
It is interesting to compare @Dearman 's list above, compiled last year, with @comme 's in 2009 and that of IFFHS in 1999. Roughly a ten-year gap between each. IFFHS named the 17 South American goalkeepers who received four or more votes from their own continent. They provided a separate list for North and Central America where Carbajal polled over twice as many votes as anyone else. Comme has 19 Americans in his Top 100 and Dearman 17. Fourteen keepers appear in all three lists, a high level of consensus. Details below with positions (among Americans only) given by each. Order of positions is chronological - IFFHS, comme, Dearman. Carrizo 1.1.4, Chilavert 2.10.5, Fillol 3.3.1, Gilmar 4.4.3, Mazurkiewicz 5.2.2, Máspoli 6.6.7, Gatti 7.11.13, Higuita 8.14. -, Livingstone 9.7.8, Leão 10.8.6, Barbosa 11.16 -, R Rodríguez 12=.17.16, Rojas 12=.-.-, Tesoriere 14.15.12, Manga 15=.13.15, Mazali 15=.5.-, Roma 15=.9.10, Carbajal (1 North/Central America).12.17. Comme's last two picks Friedel (18th) and Castilho (19th) were chosen only by him. Carrizo, Fillol and Gilmar are constants in the top four. Mazurkiewicz is placed second by both comme and Dearman. Chilavert divides opinion as always. It is interesting that Máspoli makes the top seven each time, Livingstone the top nine and Leão the top ten. In 2011 @Perú FC produced a Top 50 goalkeepers' list with nine Americans, all from South America. Eight corresponded with those in the top ten above, with Mazali added and Gatti and Higuita excluded. Perú's top three were Carrizo, Fillol and Mazurkiewicz. He also listed a further thirteen American reserves, including all the above apart from Higuita, Carbajal and Friedel, and adding Óscar Córdoba (Colombia), Rogelio Domínguez, Júlio César, Taffarel and Valdivieso (Peru). The Ballon d'Or (and FIFA equivalent 2010-15, 2020) was open to non-Europeans from 1995 and those playing outside Europe from 2007. Placings for American keepers: 2003 Dida 13=, 2007 Ceni 27=. 2009 Júlio César 21=, 2010 Júlio César 19, 2018 Alisson 25=, 2019 Alisson 7. FIFA introduced a Best Men's Goalkeeper Award in 2017. Placings for American keepers: 2017 Keylor Navas 3, Alisson 8; 2018 None placed; 2019 Alisson 1, Ederson 3; 2020 Alisson 2, Keylor Navas 4. Most ESM votes for American goalkeepers between September 1995 and January 2021: Júlio César 51, Alisson 44, Keylor Navas 38, Ederson 34, Dida 24. IFFHS introduced their Goalkeeper of the Year Award in 1987. Since then American keepers have won it four times, Chilavert on three occasions and Alisson once. As mentioned earlier, in 1966 El Gráfico voted Carrizo the greatest goalkeeper in the Argentine League since 1891. @argentine soccer fan considers Carrizo the best ever keeper from Argentina followed by Fillol. Alberto Llopis on the website colgadosporelfutbol.com has a top five of Carrizo, Chilavert, Mazurkiewicz, Fillol and Gilmar. He also mentions Gatti. The sportsmob.com site's top ten is not in any particular order. It includes Llopis's (and IFFHS's and Dearman's) top five plus Dida, Goycochea, Higuita, Leão and Taffarel. This and the Llopis selection appear to have been compiled a few years ago. The Between The Sticks website btsgoalies.com nominates the top five North and Central American keepers in order as Keylor Navas, Tim Howard, Carbajal, Jorge Campos and Friedel. FourFourTwo and Voetbal International did not include any American goalkeepers in their recent Top 100 footballer lists. Nor are there any in @PDG1978 's updated Top 100 compiled from the votes of BigSoccer posters. The Top 100 produced by @EnnatzIsTheMan from data earlier prepared by @Tom Stevens , @Perú FC and @Ariaga II did not include any American keepers either. Ariaga's 101 Teams of the Season from 1919 to 2020 had an American goalkeeper on six occasions: 1940-41 Livingstone, 1965-66 Mazurkiewicz, 1968-69 Mazurkiewicz, 1977-78 Fillol, 2008-09 Júlio César and 2018-19 Alisson. Finally @msioux75 , who probably knows as much as anyone here about the subject, identified the following South American keepers as dominating their own era: Cayetano Saporiti (Uruguay 1905-19), Tesoriere, Livingstone, Carrizo and Mazurkiewicz (best two in South American history), Fillol and Gatti (both among top five SA ever), Rojas and Roberto Fernández (Paraguay), Chilavert. The list was compiled in 2010. These sources between them name 35 different American goalkeepers. There would appear to be something of a consensus around a top three of Carrizo, Mazurkiewicz and Fillol.
Thanks to @peterhrt . If you ask me, since 10 years ago, I made a few changes, I can post my SA keepers ranking in tiers: 1st tier - Fillol, Mazurkiewicz, Carrizo 2nd tier - Gilmar, Livingstone, Chilavert, Navas 3rd tier - Tesoriere, Máspoli, Gatti, Campos, Córdoba, Julio César, Bravo, Allison
Portuguese Wikipedia might be suggesting that he himself decided not to accept some invitaions to play for Argentina (was called up but didn't want to play), after being unhappy about discontent related to the 1958 World Cup game vs Czechoslovakia? Google Translate https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amadeo_Carrizo
Yes, as alluded to in my above post I think this seems to be the case after 1958 if I understand correctly, as this translated page also seems to imply so: Google Translate https://www.infobae.com/deportes-2/2020/03/20/murio-amadeo-carrizo/ That one is in Spanish rather than Portuguese so might be better for you too I think, but it was a link on the English Wikipedia page for him. This link seems to be an old English 'report' about Argentina going into the World Cup of 1962 and it refers to Carrizo not wanting to play too: World Cup 1962: Argentina: Skill comes first – "Play Up, Liverpool" It does seem though that before 1958 Stabile the Argentina coach decided not to select him, even though he had a great reputation. Maybe it was something to do with a preference for a more traditional goalkeeper or something, but I don't have any sources about that. Maybe it is a bit similar to Lorenzo Buffon, another goalkeeper of that time, not playing much for Italy (although in his case his DBS Calcio ratings for the time after he left AC Milan are very high, which match well with being selected during that period - it's just we can't see the ratings yet at least for the first half of the 1950s where he I guess became known as Lorenzo the Magnificent and became an AC Milan legend - I suppose other goalkeepers were preferred by Italian NT selectors in that case too, and maybe there were some similarities with Carrizo in terms of a 'pro-active' kind of playing style although he wasn't known as a sweeper keeper/dribbler etc like Carrizo I don't think was he - in Carrizo's case it seems like that stems initially from a game in 1954 which was the first year he did get selected by Argentina).
Also interesting that some commenters seem to suggest Argentina would have been better off with Rogelio Dominguez in goal in 1958 (and he was unavailable due to being with Real Madrid maybe?), but other stories mention Real Madrid wanting to buy Carrizo in 1961, when Dominguez was still their goalkeeper (and younger than Carrizo, which is one reason given for him being potentially a better choice in 1958, although another is that he was part of the 1957 South American championship team before going to Spain).
Yeah, Dominguez was seen as arguably the most technical keeper at that time (as shot stopper) with a promising high peak (that he never reached). The peak-version Carrizo was known not only as a sweeper keeper (not the distributor-style, as Neuer, but, as pure sweeping, even he can dribble some rivals). Also, a recognize Carrizo's skill was his throwing, able to start fast counters, something unknown for that time (at least in SouthAmerica)
That puts a slightly different complexion on things and supports Carrizo's late high peak in domestic football. For many this outweighed his indifferent international career.