Volleyball (Indoor) - wvb/mvb, NCAA/FIVB/USA

Discussion in 'Other Sports' started by Gilmoy, Sep 16, 2015.

  1. Gilmoy

    Gilmoy Member+

    Jun 14, 2005
    Pullman, Washington
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #1 Gilmoy, Sep 16, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2015
    A general thread for indoor 6-on-6 volleyball.
    I mostly watch wvb (Pac-12, NCAA, USA anything, and FIVB majors).
    For mvb, I have no local team (as Washington State does not have mvb or mso), so I watch only FIVB majors.

    FIVB is way better than FIFA at making free streams of all majors available.
    Also, wvb/mvb needs fewer rest days than soccer, so they frequently play every day for 3-4 days in a row.

    Hmm ... let's start by defining FIVB's majors. While typing this, I learn that I don't know the definition :) I think a "major" is a quadrennial (once per 4 years) event that has its own qualification cycle (over 1+ years). Ergo, every quadrennium (4-year interval between Olympic Games), FIVB hosts two majors and two non-majors, each with different formats. The year within the 4-year interval is given by taking the year modulo 4. (For comparison, FIFA WC is 2 mod 4, and FIFA WWC is 3 mod 4.)
    • (0 mod 4) Olympic Games. 2 pools of 6, top 4 in each pool advance to single-elimination cross-over (i.e. octos is A1-B4, A2-B3, and so on). Most prestigious of the 3.
    • (2 mod 4) World Championship. 4 pools of 6, top 4 in each pool merge into 2 pools of 8 but play cross-over only (and bring their points), top 3 in each pool-of-8 advance, top 2 in each pool-of-3 advance to SF and cross-over. Most strenuous, due to the multiple rounds.
    FIVB's non-major quadrennials are:
    • (1 mod 4) Grand Champions Cup. 5 continental champions + 1 wild-card.
    • (3 mod 4) World Cup. 12-team full round robin in 3 different cities, 11 matchdays + 5 travel/rest days. It's the 1st Olympic qualifier, so the Olympic host nation cannot participate, which demotes it to non-major status. (USA wvb has won World Cups before, but we still said we've "never won a major" until we finally won the 2014 Women's World Championship.)
    FIVB also hosts annual events such as World League and World Grand Prix. They keep players busy! USA's approach for both mvb and wvb is to maintain pools of 25-30 active players, and select a slightly different roster for each one.
     
  2. Gilmoy

    Gilmoy Member+

    Jun 14, 2005
    Pullman, Washington
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #2 Gilmoy, Sep 16, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2015
    NCAA wvb has added coaches' video challenges for 2015 :eek:

    That led me indirectly to the 2015/09/14 NCAA Rules Interpretation Newsletter #1 (pdf). Peeve #2 is "Important Information Regarding the Solid Colored Uniform":

    The "uniform on the left" is ... Washington State's anthracite #15 :laugh::thumbsup:
    The "uniform on the right" is ... Oregon's dark green #6. Nike gonna Nike!

    I wonder who's been submitting all of these "many questions" in 4 weeks :)
    NCAA decrees: we're legal, so nyah nyah, yes you, you have one challenge left.
     
  3. Gilmoy

    Gilmoy Member+

    Jun 14, 2005
    Pullman, Washington
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #3 Gilmoy, Sep 22, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2015
    FIVB Men's World Cup concludes tonight. It's a "mini-major", a quadrennial but also the 1st Olympic qualifier (top 2 qualify), hence this edition necessarily omits Rio host Brazil. Rio '16 shall be harder and more prestigious because it will have better teams slog through qualification, plus Brazil in Brazil.

    Before round 1, I grouped the 12 teams into "big dogs" (contenders: USA, Russia, Poland, Italy, Argentina), "bubble" (Japan, Iran), and "corgis" (Canada, Australia, Egypt, Venezuela, Tunisia). Then I added each day's big dog matchups (only) to my weekly planner.

    Almost all matches are streamed live on YouTube; just search for "fivb world cup 2015" and Filter by Upload Date. Some evening matches in Japan are too early-am in PDT, so I slept, did not refresh the results page :D, then sat through the entire YouTube replay in real-time. My only "cheat" was to skip timeouts and dead times between sets. It's not quite the same as seeing it live, because you can't help but notice the YouTube replay duration before you click on it, and that can give an upper bound on the number of sets.

    USA did suprisingly(?) well, considering that this doesn't seem to be a "golden generation" for us, just good guys running our system. Poland is a golden generation team, they raised their level and out-emoted, out-executed, and out-fought us, and then we cracked, so it got sheepishly bad.

    Anyways, the 12-team round robin finishes with round 11 tonight, and somebody showed proper foresight in scheduling for drama. With 1 match to go, the big dogs are:

    10-0, 29 pts, +30-8 sets: Poland
    09-1, 27 pts, +28-5 sets: USA
    09-1, 26 pts, +27-7 sets: Italy

    Already eliminated by 3 losses:
    07-3, 21 pts, 22-10 sets: Russia
    07-3, 21 pts, 25-13 sets: Argentina

    FIVB tiebreakers are: #wins, then 3-2-1-0 pts, then set ratio, then points ratio (but we won't get there). The final R11 match-ups include (big dogs only, all times PDT):

    18:30 #3 Italy - Poland #1
    02:40 #2 USA - Argentina #5

    Ending with a bang: both tickets to Rio will be decided tonight, not quite head-to-head. USA is Italy's 1 loss (so far), and the 3 contenders are Russia's 3 losses.

    Weirder is that the pool points and set scores go (somewhat) in USA's favor.
    • USA leads Italy by 1 pt. If we both get the same result (WW or LL), Italy can make up at most +1 pt to tie in pts (if they lose in 5 and we don't, or if they win in 4- and we win in 5). But even the worst-possible sets, e.g. Italy loses 2-3 = 29-10 sets and USA loses 0-3 = 28-8, or Italy wins 3-0 = 30-7 and USA wins 3-2 = 31-7 (whew!!), still leaves us with the sets ratio tiebreaker. Ergo, USA holds the same-result tiebreak over Italy.
    So we get these possibilities:
    • Poland wins: Poland are champions (11-0) and qualify. USA finish #2 and qualify over Italy, even if we lose 0-3 :)
    • Italy 3-2 Poland: Then Poland 10-1, 29+1 = 30 pts, 32-11 sets; Italy 10-1, 26+2 = 28 pts, 30-9 sets. Poland clinches qualification (as soon as they win their 2nd set).
      • USA wins 3-0/3-1: USA 10-1, 27+3 = 30 pts, 31-6 sets worst-case: USA champion, Poland 2nd.
      • USA wins 3-2: USA 27+2 = 29 pts: Poland champion, USA 2nd (also by the same-result tiebreak).
      • USA loses: 9-2 eliminates us. Poland champion, Italy 2nd :cry:
    • Italy wins 3-0 or 3-1: Italy 26+3 = 29 pts, 30-8 sets worst-case, Poland stuck on 29 pts, 31-11 sets best-case. Italy pips Poland on sets ratio.
      • USA wins 3-0/3-1: 30 pts. USA champion, Italy 2nd.
      • USA wins 3-2: Three-way tie at 10-1, 29 pts :laugh: but USA's 31-7 sets pips Italy's 30-7 sets best-case. USA champion, Italy 2nd.
      • USA loses: Italy champion, Poland 2nd.
    5 of the 3! = 6 outcomes are possible :coffee: We can't finish 2nd to Italy because of that same-result tiebreak: we'll either be above them, or eliminated.

    Hey, it's still better than kicks from the spot ...
     
  4. Gilmoy

    Gilmoy Member+

    Jun 14, 2005
    Pullman, Washington
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #4 Gilmoy, Sep 22, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2015
    Italy +24,_,_ Poland is live now (link given above).
    Largest lead was 3 points at 18-15. The whole match could go like this ...

    Poland shut down all of USA's quick combos, esp. quick middle, 1-pipe, and shoot sets. USA needs the speed to compete because we're not just tall bangers. Italy is taller (= just as tall as Poland) and plays a slower, more methodical power style that seems (so far) relatively un-confoundable.

    Set 2: 6-6, 16-16, 18-18. They both dig and block heat, and take manly-man swings. Poland look a bit flat, emotionally drained.

    18-20 Ace :eek:
    20-20 Manly swing without fear, tools the triple block :notworthy:
     
  5. Gilmoy

    Gilmoy Member+

    Jun 14, 2005
    Pullman, Washington
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #5 Gilmoy, Sep 22, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2015
    Italy +24-22,... Poland.

    Set 3:
    03-04 Kurek D tools the triple block.
    03-05 Kurek ace.
    03-06 Italy time-out. Poland perking up ...

    06-07 Poland pancake, 3m roll shot ... into the net. This, from being soft, comes :giggle:

    16-12 :eek: Italy retrieve leaning over the right sideboards, but standing 3m hit sails long. Challenge, no touch.

    21-18 Italy overpass, killed.
    23-21 Backset, Zaytsev tools a double-block.
    24-21 Left set, Mika tools double.
    24-22 Zaytsev D, off a flat chest and out. Raaaahr.
     
  6. Gilmoy

    Gilmoy Member+

    Jun 14, 2005
    Pullman, Washington
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #6 Gilmoy, Sep 22, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2015
    Italy +24-22+22,... Poland. Have Poland run out of gas? Italy are content to run one hitter at a time at a medium-high set, no deception, and just bang. Poland can't shut it down, are getting no mistakes to convert, have no streaks to get excited about, and lag just a tad behind.

    If Poland win set 4, they clinch a Rio berth.
    If Poland lose set 4, they need USA to lose. Welp.

    08-06 First TTO. Italy are showing about twice the emotion.
    08-06 Poland left, blocked past coverage.
    09-06 Poland right, roofed like they're frack-drilling.
    10-06 Poland timeout.

    11-07 Poland D, soft cut shot, Zaytsev fumbles it, pulls shirt over head.
    11-08 Poland dink, pancake fails :laugh:
    11-09 Kubiak ace!
    11-10 Kubiak ace!! Italy challenge -- long by 1 mm, like splitting a tight binary star :D

    15-13 Italy dive-dig, Poland right, Italy 1-v-1 roof. Second TTO.
    16-14 Poland setter slam-dump. Italy challenge net touch -- fail.

    18-15 Left high, Kubiak(?) misses hands, sails like a floater.
    19-15 Italy left, Kubiak triple block.
    20-16 Poland 1-pipe, pipe blocked. Poland challenges net touch, fail. Italy just hungrier ...
     
  7. Gilmoy

    Gilmoy Member+

    Jun 14, 2005
    Pullman, Washington
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #7 Gilmoy, Sep 22, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2015
    23-18 Italy one heat dig, Poland eventually backset, Italy roof. Match point :eek: Poland challenge net touch, fail.
    24-18 Zaytsev huge foot fault :laugh:
    24-19 Poland serve long :cry: all that work and no reward

    (10-1, 30-8 sets) Italy +24-22+22+19 Poland (10-1, 31-11 sets)

    Italy qualify for Rio :thumbsup:

    • If USA wins, USA are champions and qualify.
    • If USA loses, Italy are champions and Poland qualifies.
    Simpler. I'll probably sleep and watch it tomorrow, it'll be just as tense as watching it live ...
     
  8. Gilmoy

    Gilmoy Member+

    Jun 14, 2005
    Pullman, Washington
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #8 Gilmoy, Sep 23, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2015
    I'm up :D missed 2.8 sets

    USA +20+21-17 Argentina. After watching Italy, Poland, and Russia just heave-ho, bang, and get away with it, I gotta say Argentina runs the (2nd-)most beautiful offense, full of quick middle, faaast outside shoots, and combos. Their style is the most similar to ours, therefore it is good and we should appreciate them. But -- our style is ours :) One more set ...

    22-18 Argentina spike off block top, behind baseline. E.Shoji backpedals, reaches back while falling backward, soft-spikes ball toward net. It's an overpass :eek: -- tapeworm, leaks over with no block up, Conte chickenwing flail and fail. That's a libero kill :ninja::notworthy: -- legal only from behind the baseline and below the height of a limbo bar

    24-20 Holt tools block, USA wins!

    (10-1, 30 pts = 1st) USA +20+21-17+20 Argentina (7-4 = 5th)

    USA wins the FIVB Men's World Cup for the first time since 1985(!!), when some team with Dvorak/Stork, Kiraly/Ctvrtlik, Timmons, Powers et al. did it between LA and Seoul. The libero back then was Eric Sato, who had this totally bizarre topspin jump serve that Russia had never seen before ...

    And USA qualifies for Rio :) This may actually mean that we cannot participate in the NORCECA OQ tourney starting, um ... this Sunday 09/27.
     
    sitruc repped this.
  9. Gilmoy

    Gilmoy Member+

    Jun 14, 2005
    Pullman, Washington
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    He looks like Jimmy Fallon :laugh:
     
  10. 8MiLLeNiuM

    8MiLLeNiuM Member

    Jan 14, 2016
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I can see you're gonna fit right in on the Volleytalk forum board.
     
  11. Gilmoy

    Gilmoy Member+

    Jun 14, 2005
    Pullman, Washington
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    FIVB tiebreakers and a lower bound on Puerto Rico's non-qualification
    2016/05/22 Sun

    FIVB WOQT-PR (World Olympic Qualification Tournament, Puerto Rico pod)
    This is the "silver parachute" 2nd-chance tourney for 2 African teams and the 3rd-place team from NORCECA and South America. Four teams, 3-day round robin, winner (only) qualifies for Rio. It's also the final Rio qualifier: 11 of 12 Rio berths have been settled, waiting only this one.

    Puerto Rico is host, and is on the verge of clinching, with two 3-0 sweeps. But since Colombia also swept 3-0, the possibility exists of a 3-way tie at 6 points, which goes to FIVB's sabermetrical tiebreakers :) I'll geek-doodle Puerto Rico's non-qualification lower bound, more as an exercise in going through FIVB's tiebreakers once (so you can see the math). This will involve some algebra :D

    From the Competition | Pool Ranking Criteria page, we see FIVB's standard criteria (which they use for all majors and qualifiers). Briefly, it's 1.#wins, 2.ranking points 3-2-1-0, 3.sets ratio, 4.points ratio(!!), 5.head-to-head. With only 4 teams in this WOQT-PR, the points ratio tiebreaker actually comes into play, because the first 3 tiebreakers are too similar to discriminate.

    On matchday 1, Puerto Rico 3-0 Algeria, Colombia 3-0 Kenya.
    On matchday 2, Puerto Rico 3-0(!) Colombia, Kenya 3-1 Algeria.

    After matchday 2 (of 3), the standings are:
    +2-0, 6 pts, +6-0 sets, +151-092 points: Puerto Rico
    +1-1, 3 pts, +3-3 sets, +134-118 points: Colombia
    +1-1, 3 pts, +3-4 sets: Kenya
    +0-2, 0 pts, +1-6 sets: Algeria

    Matchday 3 is Algeria-Colombia (in progress now), Puerto Rico-Kenya. Algeria is already eliminated by #1-#3: they can't overtake Puerto Rico.

    Consider now Puerto Rico's outcomes (vs. Kenya):
    • PR wins 3 sets: PR advances on tiebreaker #1 with 3 wins.
    • PR wins 2 sets: PR clinches 7 pts (in 3-2-1-0), and advances on tiebreaker #2.ranking points.
    • PR wins 1 set: PR clinches +7-3 sets (even if they lose 1-3 to Kenya), and that beats Colombia's best-possible +6-3 sets (and Kenya's 6-5), and advances on tiebreaker #3.sets ratio.
    • PR 0-3 Kenya but Colombia does not sweep: Then PR +6-3 sets beats Colombia's best-possible +6-4, and PR advances on #3.
    • PR 0-3 Kenya and Colombia 3-0 Algeria: Then the top 3 teams are tied with 2 wins and 6 points. PR and Colombia then have +6-3 sets, while Kenya's +6-4 sets loses on tiebreaker #3. So we consider only Puerto Rico and Colombia, and go to (drumroll) tiebreaker #4.points ratio. Heh!
      • To simplify, I'll ignore extra points above 25 per set.
      • Under the assumption that Puerto Rico lost 0-3, their new points ratio will be (151 + p)/(92+75), where p is the points they won.
      • Conversely, Colombia will be at (134+75)/(118 + q), where q is the points they lost. (Corollary: As soon as Algeria-Colombia ends, we can plug in q.)
      • Colombia pips Puerto Rico on #4.points ratio when:
        • (151 + p)/167 < 209/(118 + q). Cross-multiply and gather terms:
        • 118p + 151q + pq < (209*167 - 118*151) = 17,085
    I'll just doodle some cases.
    1. Colombia's worst-possible sweep is to win each set 25-23, so q = 69. Plug that in:
      • (118 + 69)p < 17,085 - 151*69
      • p < 6666 / 187 = 35.64
      • Puerto Rico would need 36 points total (e.g. lose each set 12-25) to advance on tiebreaker #4.
    2. Conversely, Puerto Rico's best-possible got-swept is to lose each set 23-25, so p = 69. Plug in:
      • (151 + 69)q < 17,085 - 118*69
      • q < 8943 / 220 = 40.65
      • Colombia could give up at most 40 points and still advance.
    3. Suppose p = q. Then we get a quadratic inequality: x² + 269x - 17,085 < 0, which factors to (x+322)(x-53) (rounded to integers). Since -322 is not a valid volleyball points total, we take p = q = 53. Plug those into the formulas, and Puerto Rico (151+53)/167 = 1.2216 < 1.2222 = 209/(118 + 53) Colombia, and Colombia advances on #4. So Puerto Rico needs 1 extra point on either side, i.e. score 54 or have Colombia cede 54, to advance on #4.
    The actual threshold will be known before Puerto Rico plays tonight (in fact, before I press Enter here ;)).
     
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  12. Gilmoy

    Gilmoy Member+

    Jun 14, 2005
    Pullman, Washington
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #12 Gilmoy, May 22, 2016
    Last edited: May 22, 2016
    And while I was still typing that :D, Algeria -16-12-18 Colombia, and therefore q = 46. Note that this is not far from Colombia's threshold for Puerto Rico's best-possible got-swept case! (item 2. above)

    Plugging in, Colombia's points ratio is now precisely 209 / (118 + 46) = 1.2744.

    Colombia pips Puerto Rico iff (151 + p)/167 < 209/164. Cross-multiply: 164p < 209*167 - 151*164 = 10,139, so p = 61.82.

    Ergo, if Puerto Rico 0-3 Kenya, then:
    • if Puerto Rico scores 62+ points (e.g. 21-25 each set), then their points ratio is 213/167 = 1.2754 or higher, and Puerto Rico advances on #4.
    • if Puerto Rico scores 61- points, Colombia advances!!
    That's FIVB :thumbsup: N.B. I have yet to see a FIVB tourney where the points ratio tiebreaker was needed. But we also thought the NFL would never see a drop-kick extra point in the modern era, until we saw it.

    Funnier: Tiebreaker #5.head-to-head is there just in case #4.points ratio is still tied :laugh:
     
  13. Gilmoy

    Gilmoy Member+

    Jun 14, 2005
    Pullman, Washington
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    FIVB MOQT-Mexico, the other 4-team last-chance tourney for the last men's Rio spot.
    Late drama developing: Mexico - Tunisia

    • Chile went 2-1 = 6 pts, +7-4 sets, 263/245 points = 1.07347 points ratio.
    • Mexico was 2-0 = 6 pts, +6-1 sets, 172/148 points, vs ...
    • Tunisia 1-1 = 3 pts, +3-4 sets.
      • Ergo, even if Mexico 0-3 Tunisia, Tunisia would end with 2 wins, 6 pts, and +6-4 sets, and they don't beat Chile, so they're already eliminated.
    "All" Mexico needs is 2 sets, to clinch 7 points (even if they lose 2-3), which beats out Chile.
    But they're making the home fans chew each others' toenails off.
    Mexico +23-23-23 Tunisia, currently in set 4, and now they're playing for their Rio lives.
    • If Mexico 1-3 Tunisia, then Mexico and Chile both finish 2-1 = 6 pts, +7-4 sets, and the Rio ticket goes to points ratio :eek:
    • Assuming no extra points, Mexico would have lost 23+75 = 98 points, which gives them a denominator of 246 points lost (vs. Chile's 245).
    • Mexico currently have 25+46 + g = (71 + g) points won, where g is their G4 total, which gives them 243 + g points won.
      • Since Mexico's points lost denominator is higher by +1, they need the points won numerator to be higher by +2, i.e. 265 or more.
    Ergo:
    • Mexico wins G4: Mexico qualifies.
    • Mexico loses 22-25 or better: Mexico qualifies.
    • Mexico loses 21-25 or worse: Chile qualifies.
    Mexico trailed 5-8 or so, but a late surge puts them up 16-13 at the 2nd technical time-out.

    SIX

    MORE

    POINTS

    :coffee:
     
  14. Gilmoy

    Gilmoy Member+

    Jun 14, 2005
    Pullman, Washington
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think they did the same math :)

    Mexico stuff-block for 22-16, and one guy does an excessively exuberant jump-hug (unless you know the context).
    The crowd promptly starts chanting "RI-O RI-O".
    Yellow card on Mexico, for exuberance. It's OK, all cards are cleared when you get to Rio :laugh:

    23-17 Mexico block.
    23-18 Tunisia line kill.
    24-18 Mexico front-1, tool wide.
    24-19 Tunisia backset, deep line kill.
    25-19 Mexico 4, dug to front center but setter not there.

    OK, that's decisive. Mexico qualifies for Rio!
     
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