Is this done because only the attacking team benefited from the encroachment? I mean the encroaching player scored the goal that was disallowed but booth teams encroached. Seems that if you are going to call encroachment then this should have been a rekick.
From the King's Cup in Saudi Arabia this weekend... (should start at ~5:18) This goal was decided with VAR (took about a minute and a half for the decision in the end).
Makklie (NED) was the referee. De Sousa (POR) was VAR. Both will likely be at WC18 Russia as VARs. Clattenburg has taken to simply importing foreign referees for all big matches. In fact, the fourth official is Al-Mirdasi, who is Saudi Arabia's representative for the WC himself. The decision itself appears to be correct. Seems almost certain the entire ball had to be over the line at the point the defender made contact with it.
They have been importing referees from Europe for their big matches for well over a decade even before Clattenburg. It's not a new phenomenon. Maybe Clattenburg has increased the frequency and quantity compared to previous regimes. Likes of Busacca, DeBleeckere, Rosetti etc have all done games in the middle east. If you think MLS and PRO don't trust the domestic talent pool, the middle east is 10 times worse.
True on all counts. My understanding is that Clattenburg has increased the frequency to the point that Collina had to tell Clattenburg to give Al-Mirdasi some matches. I think Clattenburg got close to or at the point where there were no Saudi referees working first division matches.
Premier League officially voted to not have VAR next season. It joins the Champions League which will not use VARistas. Bundesliga, La Liga, and Serie A will have it (or continue to have it) for next season.
At the 2018 WC in Russia VAR replays will be shown in the stadium AFTER the referee has made a decision. The stadium crowd will be told when a decision is being reviewed and why a decision has been reached. https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/43820565
Had a lot of negatives in here about VAR recently so just thought I'd post something that I think is a very nice application of VAR that is a clear miss. And then, red card for VC as the ball is thrown at the referee in protest. Clip from Poland https://streamable.com/h350n Game stopped in the middle when VAR consultation occurs, quick run over to the TV, penalty. The only thing I wonder about is whether it was really necessary for him to run over to the TV to confirm that this is a red card for VC? Thoughts?
I assume the VAR could have just told him who threw the ball. Because it wasn't thrown directly at him (it was bounced off the ground) maybe he wanted to see it for himself before deciding if it was VC, which of course would be a misapplication of VAR, no? I suppose it could be justified by the VAR informing him that no action was a clear and obvious error.
VC against the ref is a big deal. I can see why a ref would want to see it himself before going down that route.
Not “would want.” “Has to.” To my knowledge, Australia is the only location that’s operating under the protocol that the VAR can simply tell the CR that he’s missed VC or SFP. Everywhere else—particularly MLS—it’s only for factual decisions (ball out of play, penalty area location, offside position) that the referee can simply accept the VAR’s input. We will see where we end up after the WC, because this is always evolving. But for VC right now the referee has to go look (again, except in Australia). And I’m sorry, but I look at those 4 minutes and I really ask if our sport is better because of VAR. I don’t see all that as an unqualified success. Yes, the penalty call is correct. But are those the types of misses that have haunted our game? And then I know we are all referees here and we should be firm against any action or aggression directed against us. But once he gives a yellow to #16 (presumably on advice of an AR or the FO) what is the argument to go back, look, and change that to VC? Someone saw it initially and deemed it dissent or disrepute. A bounced ball from 20 yards that causes no damage is ALWAYS VC? I get it. VC is preferred. But we just went from an understandably missed penalty to a PK a yellow and a send off, plus a 4 minute delay. Which option is more attractive to fans?
I'm not sure what the protocol is, but I know in Germany there have been decisions like that too - this is the first VAR. Unless it was a fluke and it has changed?
Not so much a fluke, as the protocols allow for this. But definitely change of preference since the initial implementation. PRO is quite clear that any subjective decisions require an OFR. To my knowledge, all countries except Australia are operating under that same principle now. Though I admittedly haven’t paid close enough attention to places like Portugal and South Korea to know if I’m 100% right on this.
Was the caution for the ball? If it’s was, I agree that they shouldn’t go back on that. But my impression (and I didn’t go back now to rewatch) wasn’t that the caution was for the ball, but for the dissent. (Though now as I type that, I think of how he issued the red, and I couldn’t tell for sure whether he was giving a second yellow or waving off the yellow—which makes me think you’re probably right about the original caution being for the ball.)
There were two cautions before the second review. One for dissent and another, to a different player, for the ball. The ball incident was then changed to red. At least that’s how I saw it.
This right here. Couldn't have been said more succinctly. As Nick Saban said when it came to hurry up/no huddle offenses in college football, "is this what we want football (soccer) to be?" Is the game really better off because we got those two calls "right?" I had to watch that replay twice to see if the penalty call was actually "correct." Only at the last replay do you see the attacker's foot get stepped on. I'm still not sure if is enough for "clear and obvious." That's a call that missed all the time. It's just part of the game. I can't believe the people in charge that watched this and said that our game is better off because of VAR. This was a scene you see in an NBA game. Ball goes out of play. Then 2 minute replay to see who it last touched. They change the call and restart play and ball goes out again and then another replay. Towards the end where you see one of the coaches laughing at the second review sums it all up for me. VAR was for the fans and the teams and I don't see how anyone is better because of this.
Man U - Tottenham, FA Cup 12'. Can't tell what happened, couple of players went down, ball went out of play. Camera went to coaches. When returned, Taylor listening to headphone (VAR?) and holding up play. Pointed to touchline for throwin. Just after throwin ad boards displayed "Nothing is certain."
Here’s a good real life example of the consequences that the somewhat arbitrary nature of VAR protocols get us: https://streamable.com/rodu8 This can’t be reviewed because it’s a second caution (not a straight red) and because it’s a DFK, not a penalty. Now, let’s pretend this was in the penalty area but the referee wrongly thought it wasn’t. At that point, since the VAR would be able to say it was not, in fact, simulation... then the call could be reversed. I actually have no idea how the opposite situation would be handled (i.e., the referee places the IFK in the penalty area but the VAR has proof there was a foul outside the area). The situation around simulation and the penalty area boundary is complicated. And when 2CTs are involved it’s going to lead to a lot of controversy.
This is really interesting, but I'm curious why he didn't protest more. Not to encourage dissent, but I would have expected some given the outcome.
VAR in Italy after 346 games: - 1,736 checks, 105 decisions changed, 17 wrongly - error rate: 6,05% without VAR, 0,98% with VAR - decrease of fouls (-8,8%), protests (-19 , 3%), simulations (-43%) - increase of penalty meters (+ 4.3%) Here is the tweet VAR in Italien nach 346 Spielen:– 1.736 Checks, 105 Entscheidungen geändert, 17 zu Unrecht– Fehlerquote: 6,05% ohne VAR, 0,98% mit VAR– Abnahme von Fouls (–8,8%), Protesten (–19,3%), Simulationen (–43%)– Zunahme von Elfmetern (+4,3%)https://t.co/BYZYGNzUhr(via @nic_hh)— Collinas Erben (@CollinasErben) April 24, 2018
If I am understanding the figures correctly, this means that, on the average, every game had 5 stoppages for VAR (1736/346), and the on field referee's decision was reversed about once every three games (105/346). Or about once every 15 VAR interventions. Am I understanding this correctly? If so, is this worth the time they seem to take (which wasn't given)? I suspect that for some of them the error was significant, but certainly not for all. If there was a significant error, say, once every 10 interventions, that would result in overturning a significant error about 10 times. In 346 games. Or once every 35 games or so. Is this necessary?
It means there was 1736 checks which mostly happen without any interruption. They're the so called "silent checks". It does not mean there were 5 stoppages per game.
Does that really just mean there were 1736 goals, PKs, send offs, potential send offs, and potential PKs? (Of course, the latter two seem pretty mushy for stat keeping--when does a collision in the PA become a potential PK that was reviewed but remained silent?)
Pretty much. You can imagine a couple times a game a cross going in and an attacker or two puts their arm up for the "handball ref". VAR takes one look at it, sees it hits the chest and no one knows VAR even looked at it. Even if the VAR was 99% sure it wasn't a PK, they still look at it. Same goes for a reckless tackle in the midfield. Even if you're 99% sure it was not SFP when watching live, the VAR can still take the 15 seconds while the ref is showing the caution and getting play ready to restart to take one look and confirm that all it as well. When you take scenarios like that into account, it's pretty easy to get 5 to 8 checks per game without anyone knowing VAR did anything. It's the silent checks that become more efficient with experience. It's generally why you only catch the ref holding up the game (finger to ear signal) a couple times per match in MLS compared to the five or six times in England. It's the silent checks in my opinion that caused too much of a delay in England during the trial period, which led to much of the backlash.
In another thread an interesting technical remark was made about VAR imaging. It was about a goal disallowed in a play off match with Club Brugge for the title in the Belgian league