VAR in Review

Discussion in 'Referee' started by RedStar91, Nov 9, 2017.

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  1. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Oh absolutely. I have to believe that they will be even more liberal on penalty kicks than what the Italian's have been giving.

    I could see a scenario where they end up re-refereeing any contact in the penalty area. See the penalty that was given against Barcelona this past Wednesday/Thursday.

    Really interesting how VAR would rule.

    It will be really interesting to see how they deal with SFP. Will there be more reds given via VAR for SFP? Spain generally has the lowest standards for SFP compared to the other European leagues. I think they do a really great job on hammering tackles from behind compared to other leagues.

    Even though Italy has been pretty loose with "clear and obvious" on SFP, they have been relatively in line with the world standard for "clear and obvious" when it comes to upgrading a yellow to a red for SFP. Basically, unless you see a leg bend due to force or egregiously high it is not getting upgraded to a red.

    Same thing with reversing a red to yellow. Unless it is a complete phantom fouls it is almost impossible to reverse a red card for SFP.

    Will they have an increase in reds?

    Also, can you imagine the pressure on VAR in El Clasico? That is the most challenging game every season in the world with so many incidents occurring every season.
     
  2. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    IFAB unanimously adopted VR today. The stories I’ve seen is light on details, but it seems like the VAR system is now allowed in any competition that wants it, but VAR is not incorporated into the Laws yet.

    FIFA still needs to officially ratify, on March 16, use at the World Cup. But today’s decision, coupled with the IFAB’s insistence that we’ve seen nothing but positive results, is another big milestone.
     
  3. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Do we know what the wording clarification for DOGSO and SPA's was?
     
  4. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  5. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    We knew the "statistics" that FIFA was putting out were a little propaganda-ish. Once we saw FIFA was all in, you knew today was going to happen.
     
  6. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Sort of. I never had any real hope that the other FAs would vote this down. So in that regard, I always knew today was going to happen. FIFA needs this at the World Cup now--in its opinion, at least.

    But the IFAB being all-in on the propaganda angle is disappointing. I just can't imagine David Elleray looks at what's happened so far and is convinced that there have been nothing but positive results and that the introduction of the current iteration of VR is a historic step that ensures fairness. Both of those things are false. Yet Elleray's organization keeps saying such things, so maybe he's fully bought-in, too. It's disappointing. If the IFAB moved this forward and said "there have been mixed results, but this is still worth testing and perfecting," that would be both understandable and honest. Telling everyone this is working perfectly and improving the game just doesn't mesh with reality.
     
  7. psyc1Ops

    psyc1Ops Member

    Jun 22, 2017
    Singapore
    Encroachment happened. I blow whistle. Retake.
    Run-up and all the rest goes away.
    That would be my way to keep it simple.
     
  8. Thezzaruz

    Thezzaruz Member+

    Jun 20, 2011
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Sweden
    And this sums up my issues with Mr Poll.

    First he writes the article you quoted from Feb 28th (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo.../GRAHAM-POLL-VAR-creates-problems-solves.html) where he says;


    But then he writes a new piece on March 1st (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...3/GRAHAM-POLL-VAR-stop-now.html#ixzz58Zz93zkx) where he says;


    How the same person can come out with both those opinions, on consecutive days even, is simply astonishing. :mad::confused::mad:
     
  9. Thezzaruz

    Thezzaruz Member+

    Jun 20, 2011
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Sweden
    And I have to add this (also from Poll).

    It might very well have helped him but I'm not at all sure there is anything in the protocols that would actually allow the VAR to step in.
     
  10. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    Except that would be incorrect under Law 14. The R is supposed to await the result of the kick.

    While on one hand it seems odd to wait once both teams encroach, but since there are more serious offenses (GK offenses and kicker offenses), there is some logic to it.
     
  11. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Mistaken identity would have covered it. It’s obviously not defined too rigidly, but mistaken identity covers anything like this—it’s not just giving the wrong person the wrong card.

    Now, the bigger questions would be whether—in the heat of the moment—the VAR would have realized it AND Poll would have accepted the input over his notes. That’s open for debate. But, from a technical standpoint, nothing would have stopped the VAR from intervening.

    I laugh more at his seeming certainty that he would have got the World Cup Final. It actually was possible, and maybe even likely. But nowhere near a certainty and he would have had to have had another clean match in the knockout stages.
     
  12. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    He must have read my analysis and realized he was wrong, so he was correcting himself.:p
     
  13. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Torn on this one from Australia. Useful to get a needed and understandably missed VC call, but 3 minutes is just way too long. This has to get better.

     
  14. Cornbred Ref

    Cornbred Ref Member

    Arsenal
    Jan 3, 2018
    Omaha
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This one in the SKC match was rough. Clear and obvious? You tell me.

    970488177222922240 is not a valid tweet id
     
  15. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The elevated angle from the touchline that Geiger looked at was pretty telling. Attacker plays the ball (which Geiger probably saw live) and then the defender makes a clean tackle on the ball while avoiding significant contact.

    Where it stands in the "clear and obvious" spectrum I don't know, but I think they got to the correct decision.
     
  16. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think this is a spot-on use of VAR, personally. He wins the ball and makes sure to avoid following through the opponent. Calling it a foul is clearly and obviously wrong, IMO.
     
  17. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Poland, all from the same match:

    Very confusing situation with lots of potential offside decisions and potential handballs. Goal gets disallowed for a handball by #16 (note the ball went in the net at 24:00 and play was restarted at 31:12--seriously): https://streamable.com/hqt1p

    Challenge in the penalty area resulting in studs contact to the thigh of an opponent. No formal review and call of "no penalty" stands: https://streamable.com/64q1f

    Penalty awarded for handling. After a VAR check, the decision is deemed not to be clearly and obviously wrong, so the penalty stands: https://streamable.com/6ht6u

    Leaving aside the approximately 7-minute delay to disallow the first goal, I'd make two points:

    1) First, I can easily argue that all three decisions were wrong on the merits. The first handling to disallow the goal is possible and it's a grey area, but I can argue it's not deliberate (though this is the decision I'm most okay with, of the three). I can definitely argue (and would insist) the second one is a penalty. And I could also easily argue that in the third one that player's arm is tucked to his body, he has little time to react, and the handling is not deliberate. So my first point would be that somehow, even with VAR, the referee team made three wrong decisions.

    2) Second, leaving aside the merits of the decisions themselves, the application of VR and intervention of VARs show there is still so much lacking. The first handling, which was not called on the field, is somehow deemed a clear and obvious miss so the goal is annulled. But the clear studs to the thigh in the second incident, which results in an injury, doesn't even merit a review? Then you have the final situation where the referee obviously didn't see the handling (he's looking through the player's back) so either guessed or relied on his AR... yet he didn't have a second look himself, like he did in the first instance.
     
  18. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So you're saying that the standard to cancel a goal is different that awarding a goal/PK? We could make an entire book of these examples by now.
     
    MassachusettsRef repped this.
  19. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I mean it all goes back to errors of omission vs. errors of commission, which we've talked about for years on this site now.

    Referees are much more scared of making a wrong call that negatively affects the outcome of the game than not making one that probably should have been made. When you classify awarding a "bad goal" as an error of commission (rather than not calling a foul in the lead-up to a goal as an "error of omission") it all makes sense. To think that this philosophy wouldn't translate into the VR system was, apparently, incredibly naive.

    But when the parameters of the system were designed to specifically catch missed SFP, VC and penalties that objectively should have been sanctioned, that's a problem.

    I think you could design a VR system that could work if you limit the parameters to situations where technology and an additional set of eyes were only there to correct obvious injustices or grave technical mistakes. It takes some work, but it's not that hard. This isn't it, though. This is making things worse.
     
  20. Cornbred Ref

    Cornbred Ref Member

    Arsenal
    Jan 3, 2018
    Omaha
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Checks out. Officiating, and more specifically VAR, in Poland is disastrous. I see nonstop questionable calls week after week.

    This happened a few months ago.



    Happens right around 2:50:

    1. Marciniak. blows whistle for foul outside the penalty area
    2. VAR radios in.
    3. Referee reviews it
    4. Gives a yellow card and calls for the penalty

    Penalty goes in and gives the home team a 2-2 draw instead of the 1-2 loss.

    Call me crazy, but this is the kind of video you show in a class of what simulation is. There is absolutely zero contact. How he viewed this and made this call will forever blow my mind. You be the judge.
     
  21. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Though previous news accounts would make you think this was official several times already (and, to be fair, it was made "unofficially official" at the last IFAB meeting), today was the vote that finally determined VAR will happen at the World Cup.

    http://www.bbc.com/sport/football/43438344

    The comments in support of this from Infantino are infuriating: "We need to live with the times." Yeah, so let's invent a bad system that makes things worse.

    You can accept the need for technology (or simply accept it is a foregone conclusion) while simultaneously assessing that the current system is not designed well and not making the game better. Pretending like those are two mutually exclusive positions is what leads us to a position where no one in power seems to be casting a seriously critical eye. Of course, it's always easier to just attack the motives of opponents when you're in power, rather than to do the hard work of fixing things (or making a particularly tough decision, such as delaying implementation). It's just very disappointing that, with something this consequential to the sport, those in decision-making roles seem to incapable of believing their own eyes.
     
  22. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    Or one can take the cynical view that VAR gives people something new to talk about. Something new and unusual makes them more likely to watch and then talk about. Controversy creates buzz. Buzz creates viewers. Viewers create Euros.
     
  23. chwmy

    chwmy Member+

    Feb 27, 2010
    Cmon I can be way more cynical than that.

    Vendor for VAR system either 1: is personal friend of FIFA officials or 2: has sponsored or funded some FIFA program, or 3: has directly bribed FIFA officials.

    So despite terrible public reaction and minimal experience with any system, FIFA pushes this through because the vendor wants the exposure of the World Cup to help hawk their product worldwide.

    Of course this is probably not true, given FIFA’s shedding of its corrupt practices. But one does wonder why Infantino et al. are so determined to win against the current.
     
  24. chwmy

    chwmy Member+

    Feb 27, 2010
  25. HoustonRef

    HoustonRef Member

    May 23, 2009
    I don't have a link to it, but read "Soccer Without The Melodrama? NO THANK YOU" in today's (3/17/18) Wall Street Journal, Review section.
     

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