News: VAR Experiment (video referees 2016-2018)

MassachusettsRef · Aug 5, 2017

Wasn't the Feyenoord goal ruled out for offside? Seems like people are wrongly attempting to drive home this was 2-0 turned to 1-1. Admittedly, it was very close to that. But that's not what happened. It was never 2-0.

chwmy · Aug 5, 2017

Anyone watch Dortmund v Bayern today? I didn't watch the whole thing but they used VAR a few times and the times I saw, the ref did not go to the monitor, but rather just spoke with the VAR over the headset. It was quick and effective.

feyenoordsoccerfan · Aug 6, 2017

Interview with the referee about the VAR moment. Use google translate for a crude translation. When I have the time I will have a look whether that translation needs to be corrected.

"Een hoofdrol zaterdagavond in de strijd om de Johan Cruijff Schaal was weggelegd voor de videoref en scheidsrechter Danny Makkelie. De scheidsrechter betreurt het dat het bij de supporters niet duidelijk was welke situatie werd beoordeeld; de charge van Karim El Ahmadi op Tim Matavz of de wegens buitenspel afgekeurde treffer van Nicolai Jörgensen.

''Er moet een juiste manier komen om de mensen te bereiken. Dat proberen we als scheidsrechters uiteraard. Ik gaf ook meteen geel aan El Ahmadi en wees naar de stip. Maar het is ook een proces van gewenning. Voor spelers en trainers, maar zeker ook voor publiek. Toen ik de strafschop alsnog gaf, waren er overigens geen protesten van spelers. Die weten dat de beelden het hebben aangetoond.''

Er was ook veel kritiek dat het te lang duurde voordat de videoreferee ingreep. ''Als Feyenoord de bal achterin had rondgespeeld, had ik ook kunnen affluiten om de beelden te gaan bekijken. Maar dat was nu onmogelijk, Feyenoord kreeg een grote kans op 2-0 via een counter. Stel ik fluit die aanval af om de beelden te bekijken en constateer dat El Ahmadi toch de bal speelde bij Matavz? Dan had ik een aanval afgebroken die voor 2-0 had kunnen zorgen. Dat kan dus niet.''

De 2-0 van Jørgensen was ook geannuleerd wanneer hij geen buitenspel stond. ''De strafschop gaat altijd voor,'' zegt Makkelie in gesprek met het Algemeen Dagblad. ''En om het nog ingewikkelder te maken. Stel dat ik geen strafschop had gezien in het moment Matavz/El Ahmadi en uit beelden bleek Jørgensen toch ook geen buitenspel te hebben gestaan, dan was het toch 2-0 geworden.''

KCbus · Aug 6, 2017

First #VAR review in the MLS. A bit more regulation than the Dutch one, https://t.co/uMlnLpjKXD
— West Sydney Football (@WestSydney) August 6, 2017

First use (as far as I can tell) in MLS -- goal called back, rightfully so. Maybe they need to come up with clearer signals, though, as a lot of people thought Salazar was pointing to the center circle when he gave the decision.

sulfur · Aug 6, 2017

Really good writeup on the MLS VAR situation(s) from last night:

https://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2017/08/06/brisendine-breaking-down-first-night-video-review-mls

unclesox · Aug 6, 2017

feyenoordsoccerfan said: ↑

A situation Webb seems to have mentioned to be unlikely to happen:

👁 | Uniek staaltje video-arbitrage in De Kuip. Geen 2-0, maar 1-1. #feyvit pic.twitter.com/vnXUgpdQFU
— ESPN NL (@ESPNnl) August 5, 2017

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The only thing missing was a player sustaining a serious injury during the Feyenoord counter.

feyenoordsoccerfan · Aug 6, 2017

The Feyenoord case shows that there are situations the play is so fast that before the VAR had the video reviewed and signal the ref, the ball already was in the opposite net. I think from missed foul to illegal goal took less then 20 seconds.

chwmy · Aug 6, 2017

sulfur said: ↑

Really good writeup on the MLS VAR situation(s) from last night.
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I liked how that went, except that for me the kick out on the keeper was misconduct.

BTFOOM · Aug 7, 2017

akindc said: ↑

I watched most of it, and there weren't really any surprises, other than how old Webb looks with a rapidly graying beard.
My big problem with the system hasn't changed...why does the CR ever need to review a call, since only clear and obvious errors can, theoretically, be overturned?
Either trust the VARs, or don't bother with the system.
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I believe you have hit the nail right on the head.

Too often, replay is used to try to find minuscule reasons to either support or over-rule a decision. IMHO, if the issue can't be seen at regular speed on replay, then the call of the ref should stand and be done. VAR shouldn't be about arguing if a player's toe was slightly ahead of defender's shoulder. If there is any doubt, stay with call and keep going. If VAR says the call needs to be changed, then do it and continue.

feyenoordsoccerfan · Aug 7, 2017

BTFOOM said: ↑

I believe you have hit the nail right on the head.

Too often, replay is used to try to find minuscule reasons to either support or over-rule a decision. IMHO, if the issue can't be seen at regular speed on replay, then the call of the ref should stand and be done. VAR shouldn't be about arguing if a player's toe was slightly ahead of defender's shoulder. If there is any doubt, stay with call and keep going. If VAR says the call needs to be changed, then do it and continue.
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How does it compare to the CR consulting the AR?

feyenoordsoccerfan · Aug 8, 2017

MassachusettsRef said: ↑

Wasn't the Feyenoord goal ruled out for offside? Seems like people are wrongly attempting to drive home this was 2-0 turned to 1-1. Admittedly, it was very close to that. But that's not what happened. It was never 2-0.
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The goal wasnot dropped because of the VAR. It was an offside decision and the crowd was thinking/hoping the VAR called the goal onside. They didnot expect it to become a penalty for Vitesse. So the goal never happened, as it already was called off side.
Funny thing is that in another thread English speaking posted media links talked about a controversy. There wasnot one at all. Nobody questioned the decision. The culprit who caused the penalty later told he first thought, like the crowd, the VAR was going to decide the goal on or off side. When he heared it was about the tackle, he said he knew enough.

MassachusettsRef · Aug 10, 2017

10:50 of this video, which was a friendly between Real Betis and AC Milan:

"Clear and obvious" really is going to be in the eye of the beholder. From what I've read and been told, I don't think this penalty is supposed to be given via VR at a FIFA event or in MLS, but it's hard to be sure. Either way, Italy and Serie A are going to have the improve the system before it's ready, because this was sloppy. And an incident like this points out how thankful MLS & PRO should be that their first two usages of VR were so clean, comparatively. The first penalty or RC decision in MLS is going to be the big test...

MassachusettsRef · Aug 14, 2017

Marrufo and Geiger get starring roles in the latest FIFA video on VR and VARs:

Cliveworshipper · Aug 14, 2017

Nice.

If you are blocked like I am, here's the direct link.
Code:
https://youtu.be/qJ7OyOP9muA
Cut and past in YouTube.

MassachusettsRef · Aug 14, 2017

Just an FYI, you posted the same exact link. FIFA blocks it from playback on external sites, so you have to go to YouTube or one of their social media pages to view.

Cliveworshipper · Aug 14, 2017

MassachusettsRef said: ↑

Just an FYI, you posted the same exact link. FIFA blocks it from playback on external sites, so you have to go to YouTube or one of their social media pages to view.
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Yeah. I tried three different ways, but BS kept converting it to the blocked. (Or FIFA blocks links from BS)

So I put it as code you have to copy paste into your browser or YouTube app.

MassachusettsRef · Aug 14, 2017

The YouTube icon in the bottom right of this (or any other embedded YT video) is always a direct link to the video, too.

NW Referee · Aug 14, 2017

There are two places to click to watch the video that will open it in a new window.

Regarding the video...

Massimo Busaca from early in the video “In the last 3 competitions we did in FIFA around 70 games we saw very good results.”

I hope he and FIFA are less delusional then that with recognizing how well they have done so far. I don’t believe it qualifies as very good results. But of course it depends on the standard you are using for "very good". If you have the bar super low for what constituents very good then yes you could arrive at that conclusion. But I would hope their standards would be much higher.

MassachusettsRef · Aug 14, 2017

Until the experiment is over--be that via formal adoption/integration of VR into the Laws or the scrapping of it altogether--everything you get from FIFA is essentially going to be propaganda. They are selling a product much more so than given an honest assessment on the experiment to the public. I'm much more interested in any materials that the IFAB produce

Pierre Head · Aug 14, 2017

NW Referee said: ↑

View attachment 109136

There are two places to click to watch the video that will open it in a new window.

Regarding the video...

Massimo Busaca from early in the video “In the last 3 competitions we did in FIFA around 70 games we saw very good results.”

I hope he and FIFA are less delusional then that with recognizing how well they have done so far. I don’t believe it qualifies as very good results. But of course it depends on the standard you are using for "very good". If you have the bar super low for what constituents very good then yes you could arrive at that conclusion. But I would hope their standards would be much higher.
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It's the same kind of b...s... spin that we get on a daily basis from our politicians and their lackeys.
It has no basis in reality. They hope some people will believe it, and they are right but most see right through it.

PH

MassachusettsRef · Aug 19, 2017

So the Bundesliga is allowing (encouraging?) VARs to award penalties without the referee doing an OFR. Certainly much more efficient than MLS but, wow, their standard for "clear and obvious" is much, much lower than we've seen elsewhere. It's a hold, yes. But was it a clear and obvious hold? Was it more than trifling given the larger context? Those questions seem much more debatable and when there's debate, the call is supposed to stand.

https://streamable.com/amp_player/9dfek

MassachusettsRef · Aug 19, 2017

Same game, this isn't a red for SFP from the VAR: https://streamable.com/amp_player/5mg0x

You have to be kidding me. We are giving borderline penalties off the ball but can't punish potentially career-ending tackles.

GoDawgsGo · Aug 19, 2017

MassachusettsRef said: ↑

Same game, this isn't a red for SFP from the VAR: https://streamable.com/amp_player/5mg0x

You have to be kidding me. We are giving borderline penalties off the ball but can't punish potentially career-ending tackles.
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Damn. To be fair, it was hard to see the studs and leg aspect of the challenge until the final angle. But that was a horrible challenge.

MassachusettsRef · Aug 19, 2017

GoDawgsGo said: ↑

Damn. To be fair, it was hard to see the studs and leg aspect of the challenge until the final angle. But that was a horrible challenge.
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Agreed. But with VR, we now have the ability to catch and punish these difficult to notice challenges. This is garbage that can be eliminated from the game. I, personally, would hope the priority of VR is on taking care of these SFP challenges instead of awarding dubious PKs that few people would have mentioned if not called. Granted this is only one match, but it's the first match of the year and sets a precedent. And the precedent set yesterday was not a good one.

RedStar91 · Aug 19, 2017

MassachusettsRef said: ↑

So the Bundesliga is allowing (encouraging?) VARs to award penalties without the referee doing an OFR. Certainly much more efficient than MLS but, wow, their standard for "clear and obvious" is much, much lower than we've seen elsewhere. It's a hold, yes. But was it a clear and obvious hold? Was it more than trifling given the larger context? Those questions seem much more debatable and when there's debate, the call is supposed to stand.

https://streamable.com/amp_player/9dfek
Click to expand...

I disagree with your assertion that it was "trifling." It's about as pretty clear of a hold as you can have without bear hugging the guy. The attacker sold and amplified the severity of the hold, but that's just standard in Europe. If seen that type of play is given almost 9 out of 10 times in the games I've seen in Italy and Europe and no one really complains.

For me, it's clear and obvious. I'm looking at the video and I don't know how you can't say it is not a penalty.

Your overall point though stands though it is really getting near the line of re-refereeing the match, but that is simply inevitable with replay.

Whether you agree with VAR being involved or not on this play, this is the way it should be done in regards to efficiency. It's clear and no need for the referee to do an OFR.