Va-Va Voom, speeding into Old Trafford : the Anthony Martial thread

Discussion in 'Manchester United' started by Ashur, Aug 31, 2015.

  1. Teso Dos Bichos

    Teso Dos Bichos Red Card

    Sep 2, 2004
    Purged by RvN
    Another thing to note is his more advanced starting position centrally compared to playing as a wing-forward expected to drop deep defensively to protect an erratic lateral defence. As I said in the match thread I do not consider Martial to be particularly quick so giving him less ground to cover makes a difference. I still think his style of play is better suited wide but only if he is played high to exploit space and isolate defenders.
     
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  2. gatekeeper2

    gatekeeper2 Member+

    Jun 1, 2015
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    I agree with your assessment, Karloski, which underscores a point here that's constantly lost on a handful of posters, who shall remain unnamed here.

    Unlike midfielders and defenders, attacking players don't need to be consistently outstanding. They only need to be outstanding twice or three times a game. Take Messi yesterday, for example. For most of the game was somewhat impressive, but he wasn't "Messi". But on 2 or 3 occasions he was, and he scored the match winner. I'll take a quiet 88 minutes with 2 goals scored over 90 minutes of solid play with no goals. This is the error that a small group here consistently exhibit.

    You want your forwards, at least your primary goal scorer, to be "game changers".
     
  3. johno

    johno Member+

    Jul 15, 2003
    in the wind
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    Well, whether you consider him quick it not, he's asking the fastest in the league and apart from Baily, the fastest in the team in recent years.

    http://www.manutd.com/en/News-And-F...layer-in-Premier-League-with-Jamie-Vardy.aspx

    https://www.google.com/amp/metro.co...er-than-twelve-of-his-team-mates-6274063/amp/
     
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  4. Karloski

    Karloski Member+

    Oct 26, 2006
    England
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    The reason Martial sometimes doesn't look as fast as say Rashford on the ball...is because he sacrifices some speed at times for better control of the football. You often see him shift from slow down to bursts of speed to get past people. Rashford loses control of the ball much more often because he tries to rely on kick and run, and pure pace.
     
  5. Teso Dos Bichos

    Teso Dos Bichos Red Card

    Sep 2, 2004
    Purged by RvN
    I mentioned the contrast in their style of dribbling in the same thread however I do not consider it to be sacrificing speed for more close control. I consider it to be close control and lots of touches because he does not have the same sprint speed as the likes of Rashford. He simply cannot beat opponents in a footrace over medium/long distance. It comes down to style of play to suit their skill set. It is why Martial is better suited to beating opponents from a standing start from the wing and 1-on-1 while Rashford exploits space and changes of direction more.

    I have never read anything into the so-called in-game speed statistics as it is a crapshoot.
     
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  6. Naboomagnoli

    Naboomagnoli Member+

    May 31, 2007
    At what point is a straw man argument held together with so much bullshit that straw is no longer the main component?

    1. Not being "Messi" is forgivable when, usually, you actually are "Messi".

    2. You know, a key ingredient in a team which for years has been at the pinnacle (or occasionally outdone by those they've inspired) of fluid, high manoeuvrability team play.

    3. It's not about replacing goals with solid performances. It's about wanting to improve the way the entire attack coheres, rather than having such a limited playbook.

    4. Too often Zlatan hasn't been 'mostly somewhat impressive' when he isn't scoring. When he isn't scoring, he's often playing in a way which makes us disjointed and ponderous. Hence point 3.

    I'd break it down more but I'd rather not - everybody else gets it and I know what it's like to have my time wasted reading flabby walls of text that don't actually say anything new.

    The case of Zlatan is an almost comically more pronounced version of the situation we had with RVN at the end of 2005-06. Why is it so hard to draw a parallel with what happened 11 years ago?
     
  7. johno

    johno Member+

    Jul 15, 2003
    in the wind
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    Horse Shit.

    They might not be completely accurate, (usually they use average sure over 3 seconds) but they are useful for illustrative purposes.
     
  8. Teso Dos Bichos

    Teso Dos Bichos Red Card

    Sep 2, 2004
    Purged by RvN
    You cannot use in-game situations as a comparison point. Player A could have average speed but lots of opportunities to run at 100%. Player B could have a far higher ceiling but no opportunity to run at 100%. It is not a difficult issue to grasp.
     
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  9. johno

    johno Member+

    Jul 15, 2003
    in the wind
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    Which is why the things are typically taken over several months.

    Even so, if I can't take biggest average speed clocked, you can't eyeball it for the same reasons.
     
  10. Diable Rouge

    Diable Rouge Member+

    Jul 17, 2006
    martial is a freaking jet. can't believe we're still debating this.
     
  11. Teso Dos Bichos

    Teso Dos Bichos Red Card

    Sep 2, 2004
    Purged by RvN
    The only thing Martial has ever ran away from is his wife and child.
     
  12. gatekeeper2

    gatekeeper2 Member+

    Jun 1, 2015
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    I'm sorry you miss the point.

    There's a significant difference between the urgency of a central mid or a central defender being at the top of his game for 90 minutes than there is for a center forward.

    A side can afford a center forward being off his game for most of the 90 but coming up out of nowhere to score two goals. A side cannot afford a central midfielder or a central defender being off his game for 90 minutes but having one of two moments of brilliance.

    We've seen this time and again with forwards over the years and we'll see it again for years. Their job is to create and finish scoring chances. We've created the scoring chances this season but we have been poor in finishing them.

    As for Zlatan, the numbers have to be repeated once again because without reference to the numbers it's too easy to take shots at him -- 28 goals and 10 assists in 44 games. Those are numbers you want to see from your center forward.

    I don't have have an official or even unofficial tally of "big chances" we've created this season, but t was a shit load in the return leg against Anderlecht and its been an ongoing product of our attack against the Burnleys and Stokes of the world. That we've created gobs of chances but have been poor in our finishing is beyond any reasonable debate.

    The primary objective of possession is to create scoring chances. We've checked that box -- and over the next few days I'll scour blogs to see if someone has tallied the number of "big chances" we've created -- but once a side creates scoring chances it's up to the finishers to complete the job.

    Testimony that United's finishing this season has been a serious problem:

    http://metro.co.uk/2017/04/20/roy-k...-united-finishing-v-anderlecht-video-6587937/

    http://www.skysports.com/football/n...ds-finishing-problems-reoccur-against-everton

    http://metro.co.uk/2017/02/09/manch...s-holding-them-back-says-paul-merson-6438863/

    http://www.espnfc.com/club/manchest...poor-finishing-sees-them-drop-points-vs-stoke

    http://www.skysports.com/football/n...ts-behind-manchester-uniteds-finishing-issues

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...ngard-admits-poor-finishing-costing-team.html

    http://metro.co.uk/2017/02/01/manch...g-after-goalless-draw-with-hull-city-6421859/

    http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/jose-mouri...nchester-united-bournemouth-stalemate-1609795

    http://www.foxsports.com/soccer/story/manchester-united-hull-city-draw-epl-020117

    https://thefield.scroll.in/825451/m...rly-season-woes-could-prove-costly-in-the-end

    http://thepeoplesperson.com/2016/10/29/manchester-united-0-0-burnley-player-ratings-164635/

    https://www.vavel.com/en/football/p...red-devils-march-into-the-quarter-finals.html

    Hopefully, the point has sunken in by now.

    Our problem this season hasn't been conceding too many goals. Our problem hasn't been a lack of possession. Our problem hasn't been a lack of scoring chance creation. Everyone on earth concedes that, with the exception of a few posters here on BigSoccer.

    Our problem has been poor finishing. I fully acknowledge that Zlatan is an accessory to the crime of poor finishing as well as he should have been on 35 goals by now and not a mere 28, but we have to look at his teammates who have been even poorer -- Rooney, Martial, Rashford, Miki and Mata in particular. Pogba should be on 15 goals by now but I actually believe it's fair to argue that he's been unlucky by hitting the woodwork so many times and being the victim of great goalkeeping.

    Look, we all wish this Mourinho side could play like Brasil 1970, France 1982, Barcelona 2009 or even just Leicester City 2016 but Manchester United 2017 doesn't have the right players and even manager to reach anywhere near those heights. Jose brought in an aging striker on a free transfer to get us into the CL, not to build the club around him for the next 5 seasons. Mourinho inherited a broken squad that Moyes and Van Gaal did everything possible to shatter. Mourinho is a grinder who loves defending, possession and smothering games. Mourinho's critics are on solid ground when they complain about his management philosophy. He may win trophies, but he wins them ugly. Didn't we know what we were getting when Mourinho came to OT? Of course we did. We were desperate for trophies so we welcomed him. We knew he had two two tasks this season -- rebuild the squad and return us to the CL. The task of rebuilding is ongoing but so far, so good. We'll see about the CL but it's now clearly in our hands, whether through top four of the Europa League.

    16/17 was never going to be the season when United were going to fly high with up tempo play and recurrent 4-0 wins. This was always going to be a season when we ground out 1-0 and 2-0 wins. Although our defending has been up to the job, we've unfortunately suffered from poor finishing. Thus, stupid draws to clubs like Stoke and Burnley and needlessly difficult wins over clubs like Rostov and Anderlecht.


    Repeat after me: Focus on the big picture.
     
  13. Chaz Striker

    Chaz Striker Member+

    Jul 26, 2005
    Denver
    Damn.
     
  14. Ashur

    Ashur Member+

    Manchester United
    United States
    May 31, 2015
    Riding off into the sunset
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There is talk that has surfaced in France that Lyon's president is looking to bring Martial back to France. Considering Martial is poised to see a lot more playing time from now until the end of the season, the timing is odd.
    Not to mention, I can't see how Lyon could reasonably expect to being able to afford him. Even if United were to sell him and willing to take some kind of loss, the price for Martial would still not be cheap.
     
  15. gatekeeper2

    gatekeeper2 Member+

    Jun 1, 2015
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Mid 30s should do it, if Jose is of a mind to sell Anthony this summer.

    But if he performs at top gear, Jose won't want to sell him and that will be that.
     
  16. Rooney20

    Rooney20 Member+

    Jan 8, 2007
    New York
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    No way Martial goes in the summer. Jose said he has a place in the squad but just needs to work for it. He said this just before Ibrah was injured so I doubt he goes anywhere unless he forces a transfer.
     
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  17. gatekeeper2

    gatekeeper2 Member+

    Jun 1, 2015
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Unless Jose has three or four new forwards in mind, I can't imagine he'd sell Anthony. The fly in the ointment might be that Anthony might expect to be a regular starter and if Jose doesn't see that in Anthony's future he may just offload him in exchange for forwards who would be nailed on regular starters and then one or two forwards who would be happy to come off the bench when needed.
     
  18. Teso Dos Bichos

    Teso Dos Bichos Red Card

    Sep 2, 2004
    Purged by RvN
    They are in a buying mood, looking to break into the CL places and will need a statement signing to replace Lacazette in the summer.
     
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  19. Ashur

    Ashur Member+

    Manchester United
    United States
    May 31, 2015
    Riding off into the sunset
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  20. Gilma1990

    Gilma1990 Member+

    Jul 30, 2015
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  21. gatekeeper2

    gatekeeper2 Member+

    Jun 1, 2015
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    No. Advise Martial that he's a squad man and if his performances warrant it that he'll get his starts. Martial has it in him to be a great player but he has to put in the effort. If he had the ability of Berbatov he could get away with walking around the pitch, but he doesn't have that kind of ability. If after another season he continues to stroll and pout we can send him back to France.
     
  22. Sofabloke

    Sofabloke Member+

    Dec 24, 2003
    Mu
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Hopefully "Le Sulk" is a one season thing and he starts the season strong. If not we may have to consider flipping him Jan, as prices can be inflated then and if we leave it to summer 2018 he will only have a year left I think.

    Hopping he gets his shxt together - as there is a class player in there.
     
  23. MizzouMUFC

    MizzouMUFC Member+

    Apr 10, 2010
    Places
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    He'll be back to his best once he's getting the ball further up-field and has a decent LB making some forward runs. He needs to adapt his game a bit to Jose's style but more than that he needs to not be isolated so far away from goal. He's being asked to beat to many defenders too far from goal.
     
  24. gatekeeper2

    gatekeeper2 Member+

    Jun 1, 2015
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    I'm afraid it's not about adapting to Mourinho or not having a world class LB that was the problem with Martial. Something was wrong in his head and he sulked all season long.

    But what's done is done and we move forward. Mourinho will still be the manager next season and we're not going to have a world class LB to prop Martial up. He either gets his shit together or he'll go back to France. It's just that simple.
     
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  25. Red Jeph

    Red Jeph Member+

    Aug 26, 2006
    Chicago
    He wasn't sulking. His demeanor was exactly the same as the year before.
     

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