Utah Snubs No Child Left Behind Law

Discussion in 'Education and Academia' started by pething101, Apr 19, 2005.

  1. pething101

    pething101 Member

    Jul 31, 2001
    Smyrna, Ga
    Club:
    West Ham United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Utah Snubs No Child Left Behind Law

     
  2. Dr. Wankler

    Dr. Wankler Member+

    May 2, 2001
    The Electric City
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Those darn leftist-liberal latte-sipping imported beer-swilling decedent blue-state...

    Oh, wait, you said "Utah."
     
  3. IntheNet

    IntheNet New Member

    Nov 5, 2002
    Northern Virginia
    Club:
    Blackburn Rovers FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I have no objection to state alternates to the Federal "No Child Left Behind" testing program, if they set in place stiff penalties for schools which don't measure up to minimums. NCLB was initiated becuase some states took no action against failing schools and incompetent teachers... NCLB is geared entirely to help all children; if Utah and other states can implement state-level testing of their own origin, more power to them!
     
  4. Chicago1871

    Chicago1871 Member

    Apr 21, 2001
    Chicago
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Your

    [​IMG]

    is showing.
     
  5. IntheNet

    IntheNet New Member

    Nov 5, 2002
    Northern Virginia
    Club:
    Blackburn Rovers FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Shove your

    [​IMG]

    here

    [​IMG]

    Address the point!
     
  6. Dr. Wankler

    Dr. Wankler Member+

    May 2, 2001
    The Electric City
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    How are children helped if their schools are penalized? It seems logically inconsistent of you to say No Child Left Untested "is geared entirely to help (sic) all children" when you also point out it has a punitive element that attacks the site of education, unless you are going to show that penalizing schools actually helps students at those schools.
     
  7. IntheNet

    IntheNet New Member

    Nov 5, 2002
    Northern Virginia
    Club:
    Blackburn Rovers FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    Children are not "penalized" by NCLB! That's a canard the NEA is floating! If anything, children are penalized by bad teachers!

    Prior to NCLB schools tolerated underperforming teachers; NCLB evaluates, via testing, all schools in an attempt to identify teachers and/or schools that fail to meet minimum "benchmark" core studies. As I said, NCLB is geared entirely to help all children; it is not designed to "penalize" however schools/teachers which are identified, via testing, as not measuring up to standards will be compelled to remedy the situation.

    I am fully in favor of any alternate to NCLB which addresses the situation of children left behind due to substandard teachers, which are tolerated and indeed "protected" by teacher unions! NCLB, however, is the only game now which addresses the situation.
     
  8. Chicago1871

    Chicago1871 Member

    Apr 21, 2001
    Chicago
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm calling you a waffler. You're pulling a John Kerry.
     
  9. Chicago1871

    Chicago1871 Member

    Apr 21, 2001
    Chicago
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Having teachers teach how to pass a test instead of actually learn the material is penalizing every single kid who is touched by the program. It's not learning anymore, it's conditioning, and it's actually creating bad teachers, not weeding them out.

    The theory and ideas behind NCLB is fantastic, it's the execution that sucks.

    So you'd rather it just be addressed now, than work out a plan that addresses better in the near future?
     
  10. IntheNet

    IntheNet New Member

    Nov 5, 2002
    Northern Virginia
    Club:
    Blackburn Rovers FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You are right every step of the way! Parents would much rather have teachers teach basic curricula, rather than having to administer federally-imposed tests! HOWEVER, due to a few bad apple teachers, many schools fail to instruct the minimum requirements therefore all schools need to implement the NCLB tests to determine student competency! If schools remedied this problem by themselves, NCLB would not be needed. It is however, since the NEA defends poor teachers and perpetuates failure!

    And teachers shouldn't have to "teach how to pass a test" unless they are SCARED TO DEATH their students won't pass NCLB due to poor teaching! Most teachers in this nation are excellent educators but a few bad apples spoils the lot!

    Come up with an alternate to NCLB and I'll support it, so long as it measures basic student mastery of core curricula! As it stands now, students are still being gratuated that are functionally illiterate and someone needs to be held accountable...NCLB holds schools responsible FOR EVERY STUDENT.
     
  11. Chicago1871

    Chicago1871 Member

    Apr 21, 2001
    Chicago
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Good teachers shouldn't have to teach how to pass a test, the material should be enough, but guess what? It's not. I know two teachers who are recipients of the Golden Apple award who have had to resort to teaching the test instead of the material for the following reasons:

    1. Not all students learn the same way or at the same rate.
    2. Not all students are of the same intelligence level. There are stupid kids out there.
    3. Not all school districts can support the needs of the children attending school (i.e. a bad special education program can hurt the smarter kids when a teacher has to focus more time on the slowers ones).

    Because of this, a good teacher can teach a fantastic curriculum and still have students fail the NCLB standarized test, which is why teachers of all levels are teaching the test, not the material. This is accomplishing several things:

    1. It is making bad teachers out of good ones.
    2. It is marginalizing the results of the test.
    3. It is impeding the growth of smarter students.

    This is all leading down a very bad path and setting horrible prescidents within the educational programs of this country. In it's current state the NCLB testing is doing more harm than good. I wish I could say I had an answer, but as an individual I don't have the background or the support to come up with such a plan. To be honest, if the government gave out a grant/grants for people to come up with a better plan, I'd be willing to bet that within a couple years one would be ready to implement.
     
  12. IntheNet

    IntheNet New Member

    Nov 5, 2002
    Northern Virginia
    Club:
    Blackburn Rovers FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Then have the teachers meet with Secretary of Education Spellings and propose alternates to NCLB... you see... for years CHILDREN WERE LEFT BEHIND and nobody did a damn thing for them... former Secretary of Education Bill Bennett and former Secretary of Education Ron Paige conducted studies to determine failing schools and guess what: many were found. It was hoped the schools themselves would fix the problems, but the problems were perpetuated. Parents grew tired of speaking with School Board presidents that were afraid of teacher unions! So guess what? NCLB was created to test ALL SCHOOLS...

    Utah is now proposing its own variant of testing! More power to them! If their version tests children then great! All parents want to be sure of is that their kids are getting a "fair and balanced" education. if such pains the teachers, they can blame it on their brethren bad teachers that created this mess and the teacher unions (NEA et al.) that defended them.
     
  13. Chicago1871

    Chicago1871 Member

    Apr 21, 2001
    Chicago
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Here's the issue that will be the downfall of the NCLB plan. If Utah is granted their own testing they will effectively have their own standards. Immediate outcry will follow from other states who will create their own standard test and therefor their own standards; and make no mistake most states will not have the same standards. Then guess what? We're right back where we were before where each state administers it's own standardized test, and a lot of time, money, manpower, and potential development was wasted on the NCLB plan.

    And no, to answer your impending question, I don't have my own plan that is guaranteed to work. But let me think about it tonight and I'll have one ready to turn in tomorrow morning.
     
  14. Demosthenes

    Demosthenes Member+

    May 12, 2003
    Berkeley, CA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Just to clarify: there is no "NCLB test." There is no federal test that all students in the country have to take. Each state administers its own tests and submits the results to the federal government. So right there you have an issue. How do we determine that the various state tests are meeting the same standards?

    The funny thing about what ItN keeps saying, is that it assumes that teachers are held accountable by NCLB. They're not. Schools are. So you have a law which says "you must raise your test scores." Test scores go down, school gets more money. Test scores continue to go down, money gets taken away. The underlying assumption is that, if you demand so-called accountability in the form of test scores, and throw in a few extra dollars, administrators and teachers will magically figure out how to fix something that has been ailing for decades. It assumes that schools fail because nobody is holding them accountable, assumes that educators and administrators are leaving kids behind because nobody's looking over their shoulder. That's just nonsense. Schools need a hell of a lot more than chump change and threats.

    NCLB does nothing to actually solve the problems in education - problems which vary from state to state and district to district. It just turns to schools and says "You fix it. Or else!" There is no prescription for how to make schools more effective, and minimal resources for implementing real changes.
     
  15. IntheNet

    IntheNet New Member

    Nov 5, 2002
    Northern Virginia
    Club:
    Blackburn Rovers FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I tend to agree with your general point that schools need robust funding, but I disagree with you that schools (and in turn teachers) should not be held accountable.

    Let's use an analogy... a manufacturing plant that produces widgets. The company managers hear that widgets have been failing. They decide to test all the widgets, to determine quality. The assembly line manufacturers and assemblers of widgets rebel against the test, saying that the test is unfair! Get the point? Who's concerned about quality of widgets (managers) and who's concerned about their jobs (teachers). Get the point?

    Teachers should be the largest supporting block of advocates for testing, to determine quality. From U.S. Department of Education testimony, many teachers are supportive of testing and NCLB legistlation... those against it seem not to want to determine quality, of widgets and of students!
     
  16. Chicago1871

    Chicago1871 Member

    Apr 21, 2001
    Chicago
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That's not what he said.
    Teachers aren't against testing, they're against the organization of the program.
     
  17. IntheNet

    IntheNet New Member

    Nov 5, 2002
    Northern Virginia
    Club:
    Blackburn Rovers FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Like Democrats aren't against the war on terror, just against the application of it right? Gotcha!
     
  18. Chicago1871

    Chicago1871 Member

    Apr 21, 2001
    Chicago
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    :rolleyes:
     
  19. Jacen McCullough

    Nov 23, 1998
    Maryland

    Yep. The point is that you can't form a cogent analogy. Ready for a bit of information that's bound to screw up your entire sense of reality?
    KIDS AREN'T WIDGETS! That's the whole point so many people have been so patiently trying to bring across to you. Widgets, or really manufacturing products of any kind, are identical and uniform. Children are individual people. They learn differently. They think differently. They have different difficulties and problems. Relying on standardized testing as the sole means of assessment (which is exactly what NCLB is designed to do) takes manufacturing thought and tries to apply it to the wholly different field of education.
     
  20. dj43

    dj43 New Member

    Aug 9, 2002
    Nor Cal
    Thank you for posting this fact. You beat me to it. :)

    All NCLB does is say, "you need to have a standard. We'll accept your data. We will leave it up to you to decide how to fix it."

    I am amazed at how many people rail about the "terrible NCLB test" when no such thing exists.
     
  21. IntheNet

    IntheNet New Member

    Nov 5, 2002
    Northern Virginia
    Club:
    Blackburn Rovers FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Those of you against NCLB please check today's THE WALL STREET JOURNAL (Thursday, April 28, 2005) for the following:

    "Sue First, Teach Later"
    No Child Left Behind is neither a mandate, nor is it unfunded.
    By MARTIN R. WEST and PAUL E. PETERSON
    http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/
    (online subscription needed)

    The article is very well written and adddresses all of the NEA's fictional and wrongful allegations against NCLB and why such testing is needed in every school.
     
  22. Chicago1871

    Chicago1871 Member

    Apr 21, 2001
    Chicago
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    *Op/Ed Piece*
     

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