USWNT lawsuit against USSF for getting paid less than USMNT

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by Jazzy Altidore, Mar 9, 2019.

  1. Jazzy Altidore

    Jazzy Altidore Member+

    Sep 2, 2009
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    I don't understand. If the women win the case or get some sort of better deal through settlement, then they have made money on the negotiation, not just the lawyers. And I'm sure they were advised of the legal costs and risks involved in filing the lawsuit by the in-house WNT's union lawyers.

    I do agree that there are lots of incompetent lawyers out there who take advantage of their clients, but typically not when dealing with sophisticated entities (such as the USSF and likely the WNT's union, who has in-house representation).
     
  2. Jazzy Altidore

    Jazzy Altidore Member+

    Sep 2, 2009
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    As a lawyer LH knows he's getting trounced in this thread :)
     
  3. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    SJ Earthquakes/Arsenal
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Pleasanton, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Basketball players don't really get paid like either the MNT or WNT.

    https://www.quora.com/Do-members-of-the-USA-basketball-Olympic-team-get-paid

    Baseball players get a bonus for playing in the WBC. The numbers involved probably mean that they'd get good bonuses for doing well, but that it's not much. The example in the article (dated, admittedly) said that most players donated their 22,000 dollar bonuses.

    https://www.foxsports.com/mlb/story...rs-benefit-financially-from-tournament-030213
     
  4. laxcoach

    laxcoach Member

    Borussia Dortmund
    United States
    Jul 29, 2017
    The USSF's answer to losing this lawsuit will be to pay the Men what they're currently paying the Women. Genius. More $$ for their pockets.
     
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  5. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    SJ Earthquakes/Arsenal
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Pleasanton, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    They will not lose the lawsuit.

    But I am more and more hopeful that they lose the WNT. Let them have their own Federation and generate their own revenue at the professional/adult level if this one's so poorly run.
     
  6. SpencerNY

    SpencerNY Member+

    Dec 1, 2001
    Up in the skyway
    I wonder what the USWNT revenue would look like if the rest of the world caught up. Would the interest still be there if they no longer had Harlem Globe Trotters vs. Washington Generals status?
     
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  7. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    SJ Earthquakes/Arsenal
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Pleasanton, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re-reading this, I think it's important to make this clear.

    I'm not one of those "love it or leave it" kind of people. I think you should try to improve your life whenever you can, and if that means badgering your employer for a raise, that's fine with me. You should improve your society or your company in whatever small way you can, and if there's something wrong, you have a duty to yourself and others to try to resolve it. So, the existence of the USSF doesn't mean that there's nothing wrong with it, or that it cannot be wrong.

    My issue is with the twisting of "equality". People have expectations of transgressions when people talk about being treated "unequally", or "unfairly". There are many, many examples of people being treated unfairly by institutions, including in the realm of Women's soccer, where many places continue to ban Women from playing or even watching from the stands.

    I would like us to tackle those unfair conditions first and foremost, not waste our time arguing about this frivolous and transparent attempt to squeeze more money out of what is already an abnormally-progressive soccer federation. It's not like we can't do anything until we deal with the biggest problems in Women's soccer, but I'm a huge soccer fan, and the only time I hear about Women's soccer outside of the BS Women's side, is when it's the USWNT saying that they're victims of unfair treatment. It gets all the publicity, all the attention, and if the WNT has their way, will get all of the money as well.

    Very frustrating.
     
  8. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    SJ Earthquakes/Arsenal
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Pleasanton, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's already like this. Elis is awful, and the team's old as hell. We play very route one soccer. Teams pass through us with ease now that our athleticism is not longer such a crutch.
     
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  9. RalleeMonkey

    RalleeMonkey Member+

    Aug 30, 2004
    here
    It goes to the men's side, of course. The Women say they make more money than the men. They should have noooooo problem with this.

    Are you saying the women are way wrong?
     
  10. RalleeMonkey

    RalleeMonkey Member+

    Aug 30, 2004
    here
    You be the judge. She was on 60 minutes. She said she's the best female payer in the world and should be paid the same as the best man. The interviewer said "so you should be paid the same as Lionel Messi?"

    She said yes.
     
  11. RalleeMonkey

    RalleeMonkey Member+

    Aug 30, 2004
    here
    That's not how she said it.

    if you can find the 60 minutes interview the ladies did last time they sued, watch it.

    She said she should be paid the same as Messi.
     
  12. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    SJ Earthquakes/Arsenal
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Pleasanton, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Frightening logic. Easily able to be taken to its logical conclusion. She is the best Woman soccer player, Messi is the best Male. I am the best soccer player, male or female, sitting in my seat right now. As a result, please pay me.

    If that doesn't work, maybe we try to work out some kind of system whereby individuals are judged by their own merits? No, too hard, can't be done.
     
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  13. puttputtfc

    puttputtfc Member+

    Sep 7, 1999
    I'm not going to bother to look this up. I'll just believe you and do a shot of bourbon.
     
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  14. Editor In Chimp

    Editor In Chimp Member+

    Sep 7, 2008
    #164 Editor In Chimp, Mar 12, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2019
    Well, that's certainly a hotter take than I expected the context to be.

    ETA: I'd also say that between this comment, and the unnecessary bomb throwing at the MNT a couple of years ago, it's hard for me to find a ton of sympathy for the WNT beyond the facilities and ancillary issues that should have been addressed in the last CBA.
     
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  15. SUDano

    SUDano Member+

    Jan 18, 2003
    Rochester, NY
    The beginning of any negotiation fair or not is to create a narrative where one is the victim and being mistreated and marginalized subgroup. Ignore facts until you create a sensical yet misleading construct of a plausible narrative. Start with getting people to say to themselves. Yeah, that makes sense. Should a woman get paid the same as a man? Yeah that makes sense. Instead of a normal response which should be...I don't know enough tell me more.
     
  16. lmorin

    lmorin Member+

    Mar 29, 2000
    New Hampshire
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    But maybe the USSF cannot do that. Maybe the men (at least for World Cup related games) must pay according to a FIFA-dictated scale for which FIFA provides the money. That's the part I do not fully understand.
     
  17. laxcoach

    laxcoach Member

    Borussia Dortmund
    United States
    Jul 29, 2017
    Totally true and I don't have that answer either. It seems if they could, that would be the way the crooks in the USSF would manage the issue.
     
  18. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    Raleigh
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I’m assuming you were never the best soccer player in the world. A better analogy would be if the world’s best team handball player said something similar. Or best rugby player, whatever.
     
  19. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    Raleigh
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    My recollection is that the women cherry picked a single year where they made more money. So they weren’t wrong, they just were comparing differently.

    IANAL but it was such a transparently bullshit piece of cherry picking I wonder why they tried it. If I were a judge it would piss me off when a brief so clearly crossed the line between client advocacy and trying to trick me.
    So that’s your idea of logic, huh? Good to know.
    If it’s men vs. women in the Oppression Olympics, that’s much worse than a Dream Team vs. Angola style blowout. Good grief.
     
  20. Gamecock14

    Gamecock14 Member+

    May 27, 2010
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    This is really what it is about. It puts public pressure on the Fed. The Mens union did not want to get anywhere near this. They released a statement pronto.

    The facilities and ancillary issues were really overblown. The MNT union was using what the WNT got in their CBA to get more and vice versa. They kind of ruined that when they blew it up for their CBA fight with the unequal treatment.

    Some of the other stuff was basically due to leverage the MNT had that the WNT did not. The MNT got first class flights in their cba largely because they had players playing overseas whose teams began demanding their players be put in better positions to recover. The MNT has been using it to go from coach to first.

    I said it when Tannenwald put out the CBA and other stuff, it's a lot more complicated than what it is being advocated by the WNT, what is being written by soccer reporters, and what is being said by fans. The WNT are signing CBAs that are different than the men and complaining about being treated differently. This ignores the revenue coming in and the fact that WNT players have been paid than MNT in the same year.
     
  21. SUDano

    SUDano Member+

    Jan 18, 2003
    Rochester, NY
    My post from a similar thread:
    Very Interesting. My take on a couple of big points:
    -Women's soccer and Men's soccer are not the same sport. USSF should be able to make a list of 100 points on how they are demonstratively different in competition, participation, skill, revenue etc. on both a domestic and international basis. Simply put Men don't play vs Women.
    -The Women's team for the most part are trying to maximize the income of 25 or so women and tangentially trying to throw some carrots to the rest of women's soccer players.
    -I won't fall for them saying they are trying to help all women or all women soccer players....they are not.
    -The women are trying to intermingle concepts and confuse the public and possibly a jury by throwing together national team play, domestic professional league, international professional leagues, and men's international play through FIFA. When they make statements like women's players make a fraction of men they never clarify if they are only referring to USSF, MLS vs NWSL, or FIFA comparisons. If you can't win with facts confuse them with BS. They don't clarify their points.
    -Women don't want the same pay as the Men from the USSF. They want to continue their USSF salaries, they still want NWSL salary subsidization, they still want pregnancy support, etc. They are trying to make their weakest negotiation point that NWSL doesn't make enough money to pay all players a livable wage to just go away or to blame 'the system' for lack of promotion.
    -They are trying to use the concepts of Title IX to apply beyond education and into the capitalistic business environment. They want to be equally supported, paid, promoted while ignoring their revenue and profit generation. They want to paid equally because they are women not because they generate similar revenue/profit. If the women win this case we are no longer a capitalistic society where pay is tied to revenue, experience, talent,and budgets. All Doctors will make the same without any other consideration. A first year woman PCP in Philadelphia, MS who works 4 days a week should be able to claim the same salary as a male neurosurgeon with 30 yrs experience in NYC. All jobs will be tried to be connected to the highest paid broadest concept of that job to make more money.
    Simply put where will the money come from? If they claimed that they want to be subsidized from other money making methods I would be alittle more on board for simply being honest.
     
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  22. Editor In Chimp

    Editor In Chimp Member+

    Sep 7, 2008
    #172 Editor In Chimp, Mar 12, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2019
    I have some bad news for Carli Lloyd if she thinks she's the best soccer player in the world.

    I guess my point is that her trying to compare herself to Lionel Messi is so absurd it belies belief she said it and was serious/sober when she said it.

    Of course, this is all immateriel to the main issue, which is the WNT is trying to get paid and they're using all possible means of leverage and public opinion to make it happen.
     
  23. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    SJ Earthquakes/Arsenal
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Pleasanton, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I mean, yeah, I try to hold people to some kind of ethical and logical consistency. What's your idea of logic? If we separate people into categories, and people are paid based on their membership of that category, why can I not simply tweak the categories to an absurd degree?

    Most, if not all, of the WNT would not be professional soccer players if they were forced to compete with men for spots in professional soccer. Therefore, a large part of the reason they are able to make a living as professional soccer players is that they are women. Which, who cares, we've had gendered sports competition for a long time.

    But, If you are going to expect your payments to be based on what your status is only within your group, and in comparison to *insert other group*, then why can't I have a little fun accentuating that line of thinking? If you take *insert group* identity as the paramount importance for what you should get paid, then all I need to do is change the group to an absurd degree, and I will remain consistent with that ideological presupposition.

    For example, humble-brag here, I was a cart attendant at Target as a summer job for a couple years while at school. I was, IMO, the best cart attendant at the East Dublin Target. I actually cleaned the bathrooms every hour and a half, I manned the registers, and I liked telling people where to get stuff. Somewhat ironically, I wasn't the best guy with the cart-gatherer, but overall I was the best.

    I'm the best cart attendant. Let's pretend that Target CEO Brian Cornell is the best CEO. Why can't I get paid like him? I worked hard, and stayed overtime. 99 percent of people would rather be a CEO than a cart attendant. Heck, we're even at the same company, both being paid by Target, yet he makes more! What? Crazy!

    Or, we could continue using a system that pays you based on the value that you provide for other people/institutions. If there's an undue discrepancy, let's make sure that's not happening for a racial, sexual, or political reason. Like if I provide $1,000 dollars of value, and I get paid $100,000, while a co-worker doing the same job gets paid $1,000 for $100,000 of value just because they are a different race/sexuality than me.

    The devil's in the details, of course. People make different amounts of money for all kinds of reasons. But in this case, Carly Lloyd isn't being treated unfairly by not getting paid like Messi.
     
  24. puttputtfc

    puttputtfc Member+

    Sep 7, 1999
    The court of public opinion is different than the court of law.

    Does anyone have actual numbers of what each team makes for the USSF?
     
  25. SUDano

    SUDano Member+

    Jan 18, 2003
    Rochester, NY
    I knew what you meant. Absurd claims of Loyd deserve absurd extensions of that claim by @gunnerfan7. If the women win anything from this lawsuit the doors are wideopen to try to claim one's job to be the same as other jobs through an increasing absurd connections of fabricated thin relation to other jobs men do. Its unfair either way. I want the women to maximize their income but by doing it by an increasing array of absurdity I am losing respect for their cause.
     
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